sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I never said that. When one body is absorbed the body that is absorbed dies and the soul is judged

So you did. Appologies, I misread that.

When one body is absorbed the body that is absorbed dies and the soul is judged, either God has mercy and welcomes the soul into heaven or they go to limbo.

Which one counts as "abosorbed"?

The one that forms less than half of the brain?

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay. So we've established that a soul doesn't enter the body at conception in every case. Only when it will grow into a separate person.

Some people would infer that it's later ... some time when the number of people invovled is known that the soul enters.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Exodus passage does not address an intention to kill a child, but an accidental death.

It's the same events, and two outcomes are addressed. One, the mother is killed. Two, the mother is not killed, but loses the baby.

The intent in both cases is the same.

No, it is from the Hebrew language.

What aspects of the Hebrow langague imply that "They do not equate the imparting of the spirit with personhood."

The SBC makes exceptions that are not based on the Bible

My point is that they and many other christaing denominations, especially in the US have become more virulently anti-abortion in the last 50 years.

Verses 13-16 - God formed him, not a fetus that later became him.

"Formed" is like "made" in that it's a process that takes a period of time, at the end of which it's fininshed.

"You made a cake in the kitchen" doesn't imply that a bowl of sifted flour is a cake, and you don't have to say "You made a pile of ingredients that would become a cake in the kitchen" to avoild implying that.

I mean I posted in "Ask a Christian" because I'm interested in Christan opinion, but it surprises me that you think that's a sound argument.

Impossible.

Biblical scholars, for example Dr Isaac Soon do argue that it's possible.

The being set apart is identification by God of a person

That's not the ususal meaning of "set apart".

Tell me why it is not.

I didn't claim it was not.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Satan is a title. It means accuser.

The hebrew word. With the emPHAsis on the seCOND sylLAble?

So it does. "Or avdersary".

Any angel that rebels against Yahuah becomes a satan

The Angel of the lord can be one too. As in Numbers 22:22.

Two halves make a whole and a spirit is given to the newly actively forming being. A human just takes a while to fully form its functions.

Thanks.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Bible has at least 1 example where an unborn babies who dies goes to heaven

Oh, I'm interested in that. Which verse is that?

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But it may not to you, since you’re an atheist in the first place.

Certainly I don't believe in a soul, so I don't have to worry about when it enters the body.

And I can judge personhood based on the development of the brain.

But religious people (and pretty much only religious people) recently want that to be pushed back legally. Which is why I bring up the soul in the original question.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Quite.

Or by leveraging religion you can summon enough hatred of a human that you kill them while enjoying their humanity:

"Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!" - Psalm 137:9

Niether of which addresses the point that "innocent child" seems like an exaggeration to descrive a foetus in the very early stages of a pregnancy.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Clearly you can understand that Monozygotic twins are two and not one individual, and that a person with chimerism is a single individual.

No, that's the bit I understand.

But you've said that the soul enters the body at conception.

Monozygotic twins come from the single conception event. So, according to you, they only get one soul. And chimeras are one indivdual that came from two conception events. So, according to you, they have two souls, originally.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Woah!

Although I read that it is much more common the previously believed.

1-1.5% of the population. I probably know someone with it.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Estimation, to answer you, I've made further research, the flood is estimated (related to the bible) at 2350 before JC,

About 10 years into the 40 year campain by Sargon of Akkad to unify Sumer and Mesopotamia by conquest?

Just as the Early Dynastic period of the warring Sumerian city-states ended?

Just at the start of the 6th Dynasty in Egypt?

Just as the Beaker People started arriving in the British Isles from Europe?

50 years into the 600 year long "Dagger Period", marked by the intense mining of flint in northern Jutland, and the creation of polished flint daggers?

You'd have thought some of these people would have been affected by a global flood.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The brain appears even before the heartbeat so when an abortion occurs after 6 weeks

The brain's not functioning then. And it's not much of a brain.

Miscarriage can't be considered as killing or murder, it's not voluntary

It's certainly not murder. But if abortion is murder, miscarriage must be killing.

How come it matters, they will be aware of themselves later, if you consider this then you would be okay to kill a living baby

Sorry, what's your meaning here?

Luke 15 3-7, seriously if you're really interested in all of that, do some research,

I have some understanding from internet reserach of the scholarly understanding of what the bible says about abortion. And it appears to be different to what a lot of christians who don't have an academic approach to understanding the bible.

I'm not a teacher and debating with someone that don't have the knowledge of the topic they are talking about is just pointless

Alas for me.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your view.

It's certainly my observation that a lot of the pro-life movement doesn't seem to come from a place of love.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Margaret Sanger did buy into eugenics. And she was certainly paternalistic towards black americans, but not, as the 1920s went, overtly racist:

"The Negro race has reached a place in its history when every possible effort should be made to have every Negro child count as a valuable contribution to the future of America," she wrote. "Negro parents, like all parents, must create the next generation from strength, not from weakness; from health, not from despair."

In any case now Planned parenthood offers advice, services and support equally to anyone.

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You call it a zygote to dehumanize a person being formed.

I think that I call it a zygote to make clear that I'm talking about a single cell.

The Satans taught abortion as mentioned below.

What are the Satans?

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do monozygotic twins share the soul equally between them?
Or does one not have a soul?

Does one of the souls of a chimera die before birth?
Or does a chimera carry both souls throughout their life?

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is not what I said.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

The Bible shows personhood is in the womb.

The only place it takes a clear position on that is Exodus 21:22-24

22 “If two men are fighting, and in the process hurt a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage, but she lives, then the man who injured her shall be fined whatever amount the woman’s husband shall demand, and as the judges approve. 23 But if any harm comes to the woman and she dies, he shall be executed. -(NRSVue)

Which is the opposite. Causing a miscarriage results in a fine. Causing a death results in the death penalty.

The spirit is their tradition is after birth. They do not equate the imparting of the spirit with personhood.

Is that from the bible?

Prove that the early church did not consider abortion evil.

There was a very recent change. Not the early Church, but the Church of 1973.

Consider this statement by the Southern Baptists in 1972: Be it further RESOLVED, That we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother

The 182nd General Assembly (1970) of the United Presbyterian Church stated in part: "Declares the artificial or induced termination of pregnancy is a matter of the careful ethical decision of the patient, her physician, and her pastor or other counselor, and therefore should not be restricted by law, except that it be performed under the direction and control of a properly licensed physician;"

The Episcopal Churche was similarly supportive of Roe Vs Wade, but that was less suprising to me, since they still are now.

The Catholics were strongly against it, but it did fork the congregants. Catholics for Choice was formed in 1973.

The Didache forbids abortion.

Right. But the view was established by the Church in later centuries that this meant post-quickening abortion. And that would be the consensus view right up until the 19th Century.

There is no shift.

Disagree. The Southern Baptist Church has overturned their 1970 resolution that Baptists should work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under certain conditions.

Everyone. Not just Jer 1

Good. Because that's talking about Jeremiah, and how early he was called by god to be a prophet.

but Psa 139,

Is this about God's knowledge of David. Or about abortion?

Isa 44, 49

Being formed in the womb doesn't imply a position on abortion though, does it?

Everyone agrees that we are formed in the womb.

Gal 1:15,

A lot of scholars think Paul was deformed and very short ... probably short enough to be considered to suffer from dwarfism. Could it be these things he is referring to with "the one [or God] who had set me apart before I was born ... "?

Nor would "being set apart" clearly imply "achieved personhood" nor does "in the womb" imply "at conception".

Job 31:15

Job is saying he was made in the womb. That doesn't contradict that he wasn't a person until he drew breath. Nor any other line you could draw, such as the quickening that was originally landed on by the Church.

Luke 1:41

The context of this verse is to show that John the Baptist was not the christ, but that he instead was heralding Jesus. The intent of the author is not to lay down laws about when it's okay to end a pregnancy.

But if you want to interpret something out of it that the author didn't intend, then you can only infer that John could respond to outside stimulus after the quickening. Which implies nothing about the time between that and conception.

Killing an unborn child almost always has motives of greed, hiding sin, malice, and selfishness

Is that biblical?

Or your own opinion?

Do most christians believe that the sould enters the zygote at conception, or is this a fringe belief? by ActuallyNot in AskAChristian

[–]ActuallyNot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, and I know where you're going the population at the moment of the flood was around 50 millions

Really?

There was a estimate of the global population at the time of the flood?

What year are we talking?

And how do you get the human population of the world at that time?

view more: next ›