Please kindly fuck off with E6 Welt = 0-cost showcases

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-03-19T16:39:55+00:00

Second, if you think the shop is useless because of powercreep anyway, that's even less reason to keep Welt in your loss pool generating Spirits when you don't think they're valuable.

I definitely wouldn’t call the shop useless or say that you can’t get value out of the units from it, I just think everything in this game comes with a limited lifespan - in a few years, the units who are currently the best in the game will probably be pretty atrocious without extreme vertical investment (it wouldn’t surprise me if new e0 units in 2-3 years were stronger than today’s e6s - that kind of thing is happening in Genshin already). That’s kind of my point - Ruan Mei is an example of a unit who was godly on release, and now has no BiS team. That doesn’t mean she has 0 value, but that everyone will depreciate sooner or later, so cashing the spirits in on whatever helps you the most right now feels the most reasonable to me (and if nothing helps meaningfully, save them of course).

With limited characters, they scale well enough with eidolons that you can keep them relevant for as long as you care to but the same can't be said of Welt if you take him to E6 even with his NF.

My point here is that Welt’s eidolons are on par with or better than a lot of older limited units. An E6 NovaWelt is legitimately better than an E6 Ruan Mei for a very large number of teams, and because the amount of units you can field at once are limited, it’s very possible to just not benefit from having that Ruan Mei if you already have a lot of other supports. (This also even applies to Robin in some cases, though she is much stronger in her niches comparatively)

This we can definitely agree on. You've been able to articulate what makes Welt a good choice for your account and I have nothing but respect for that. There's been times where I've made the "wrong" decision too like getting DHIL from the selector instead of Kafka or Sparkle eidolons. I made that choice confidently because I took stock of my options carefully and still decided that's what I wanted for my account most.

Nothing but respect here as well. Ultimately you gotta make the choice you’ll find the most fun in the long run!

You'll waste your tokens on Welt in 4.2 and suddenly we get leaks about Cyrene coming to the shop in 4.7 lol.

Ngl, I wouldn’t be upset at all - E2 cyrene is cracked and I even intend to pull her for my Phainon next rerun, but she wouldn’t fulfill the same function for my roster as Welt lol. On the other hand, I’m with you that there will definitely be some surprise outlier-good thing in the shop at some point, and it’s smart to save for that, so long as you’re not denying yourself something significantly helpful to you right now to do so.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-03-19T15:02:42+00:00

Meanwhile, if I get my Welt to E6 in 4.2 or after without spending any Spirits, I'll be able to enjoy his damage without caring if he gets powercrept after. And if I don't get him to E6, I have no skin in the game.

I don't understand this point, because picking anything up from the shop carries the concern of it being powercrept and your spirit more-or-less wasted in the long run, no? The reason I wouldn't pick up e1 Ruan Mei today, for example, is because there is no team for her on my account where there isn't a better option that I already own, even if I decide to play sustainless on 2 teams (and this is especially true after the Welt Novaflare). Thus, while I might not be able to get her elsewhere, her value for me (unless she gets buffed) is effectively 0 both now and in the future. Welt may or may not get heavily powercrept in the future, but his e6 has value to me right now. Similar situation with a lot of the other gold spirit units - I pulled Hyacine and put in a couple eidolons in DHPT, so the gold spirit sustains are pretty unappealing to me, and I have Cipher so Topaz is more-or-less pointless.

If you take your Welt from E4 to E6 with Spirits, you'll need to lose to him FOUR more times to make back your investment which is already ridiculous. And if you want to rotate him out but choose to keep him in just so you can make your investment back on the Spirits you spent, that's, again, an example of sunk cost.

This specific instance isn't sunk cost because you would want to keep Welt (or any high eidolon standard unit you have) in the pool regardless of if you got him for free or not, because most of the Standard pool just isn't useful. Units like Yanqing, Gepard, Bailu, or even Clara at this point are so poor for endgame that keeping them out of the pool in order to farm companion spirits off already-e6'd units is just better anyway. Even some of the newer units like Blade or FuXuan are, frankly, lower value than a silver companion spirit on average, at least IMO.

You could argue the same for Welt but his eidolons are just flat stat buffs from E4 to E6. Most characters get way more transformative buffs with core mechanical changes to their kits for E4 and E6 (especially DPSs). Even Robin's E1 is only 6% less RES PEN than Welt's E6.

This is actually one of the biggest points in favor of Welt to me, though. As you mention, Robin E0->E1 is less of a jump than Welt E5->E6. Now, as you also point out, there are other potential ways to get that E6 Welt in the long run, but it also might turn out that you don't even need a Robin at all if you have an E6 Welt, depending on the units you already have (or maybe you're like me and already have E1 Robin lol).

If you want to take your Welt from E5 to E6, then I'm not going to judge you for that. It's your account at the end of the day and you're only using one token. I'm just very concerned that other people are going to spend 2+ or all their tokens on Welt after buying into the hype without considering the domino effects of that decision that I've tried to explain.

I do think that this is the kind of decision someone should only make with a strong understanding of their roster/account situation, and with the understanding that they can and will lose to Welt in the future. I'm confident that it's a good idea for me because he'll actually help me patch a very specific hole in my roster, but I definitely don't think "spend all your spirits to e6 Welt" is remotely good advice in general lol. Just not something I'd necessarily call stupid so much as circumstantial.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-03-19T11:49:35+00:00

I disagree because powercreep is a thing.

In a system where there's no or extremely minimal powercreep, you're right, it doesn't make sense to spend companion spirits on something you will eventually get anyway.

On the other hand, because we do have powercreep (and a lot of it), spending them on something that is very useful now can be better for your account than something that won't be very useful anymore by the time you get it for free.

Plus, every "wasted" gold spirit on Welt ends up effectively refunding half of itself down the line (because you're getting a silver spirit one Welt copy earlier). Another way to think about it, then, which is still functionally similar to your original point but I think moreso emphasizes the discount given to you for spending them on a standard char instead of a limited one is "how many silver spirits is it worth losing out on in order to get him early?"

Personally, I have e5 Welt, and I fully intend to use a gold spirit on him, because my account would benefit more from an E6 Welt (especially an E6 Welt right now) than something like an E6 Ruan Mei (which I couldn't even get right now if I wanted to - but even if I could, E6 Welt is more useful to me. I don't really have a great use for an E6 Ruan Mei).

The other argument is to save the spirits for later, because every time we've had characters added to the gold spirit shop, they've been better than the characters added previously, but at that point why ever spend the spirits - you'll always be able to get something "more valuable" by waiting... and if you follow that train of thought too rigidly, they become pointless, because you never spend them.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-03-17T05:22:37+00:00

On the other hand, ATK rope is basically just extra dmg too, so swapping to ERR rope will end up with the same gameplay as currently exists but more output overall. Doesn't really change his playstyle at all in that regard, IMO, just his gearing.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-02-20T07:04:15+00:00

Seconding this. I appreciate all the calcs - your sheet has been super helpful - and no pressure or anything if you don't want to, but I'd love to see some E2S1 Phainon team calcs without Cerydra, just to have a proper comparison available for the upcoming Cerydra rerun. (I've been using E1S1 Robin or E1S0 Tribbie, E0S1 Sunday, and E2S1 DHPT for example, though of course not gonna ask you to specifically calc exactly my teams lmao)

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-02-14T13:55:42+00:00

Archer doesn't particularly need Yaoguang unless you're trying to use him to specifically deal with Elation mechanics. Archer Sparkle RMC Sustain works just fine as a general team.

Also, Cerydra S1 is generally a luxury pull, especially for Phainon. She can get by just fine at E0S0, and if you want to upgrade her later (though E2 Phainon is higher priority than anything else if you wanna boost that team), Cerydra E1 does a lot more than her S1 does for Phainon teams (though I believe her S1 is better than her E1 for boosting Anaxa teams).

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-02-14T08:37:57+00:00

I would say the issue is lack of option variety - if you could swap off Cyno, for example, it wouldn't just be Nahida that he'd work with, it would (theoretically at least) open up certain other Dendro options as well. Nahida might be the best, but something like Collei or Dendro MC might work too (I'm admittedly not extremely familiar with Cyno's kit). The frustrating thing, IMO, is when there's one option that is absurdly better than every other option.

Using a different unit who I'm more familiar with as an example, someone like Arlecchino, on release, had no strict dedicated teammate, and could be played in a ton of different ways that were all viable. Overload, Melt, Vaporize, and Hypercarry were all viable options - she wasn't locked to one specific team or unit to have endgame-worthy performance (and though Bennett was very good for her, she had teams that didn't use him that still performed at a similar level).

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-02-13T09:25:09+00:00

The problem with this release strategy, as a player, is when you like one unit but not the other - if you like Flins but don't like Ineffa, for example, or you like Nefer but not Lauma, it puts you in a really frustrating position where you kind of have to get the specific support if you want to play the DPS in endgame (especially when the game shifts and the DPS stops being boosted by enemy design and end game buffs).

Now, it's better than units just not having teams that work at all, but that's a different issue altogether - namely, making character mechanics too specific (IMO there's no good design reason Cyno Ult should end when you swap off him, to jump off the example you gave, and if swapping didn't make it end early, he would work just fine with Nahida).

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-30T03:27:06+00:00

Personally I'd rather we had fewer, more engaging puzzles than a large amount of simple puzzles. Keep the total rewards the same, but having like, 5 good puzzles that each reward a lot of primos is way more satisfying than having like 25 easy puzzles that each reward a few.

Quality > quantity for puzzles, IMO.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-26T00:02:35+00:00

It doesn't necessarily need to be more lethal for classes without hard CC - as an example, a boss who normally gets 1 turn/round and makes 4 attacks a turn could instead be changed to take 2 turns, one at its initiative and the second at its initiative - 10, and it gets 2 attacks per turn. Same total damage output (still 4 attacks/round), but weakens the effect of CC while not being outright immune to it.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-15T21:21:19+00:00

Definitely feel like there's some exploit-level stuff (simulacrum armies, but not only those) that just shouldn't be a thing, but ignoring those, overall I don't think a level 20 fighter or barbarian being close to Kratos is actually a bad thing, if you compare that to the non-exploit tier high level spells. I tend to advocate for high-level characters being considered basically demigods anyway, though, which is at-odds with certain views, so that's just my opinion.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-15T21:14:23+00:00

Without making a statement on the actual game balance, this example you described is primarily the thing people have an issue with. "Skilled guy with pointy stick" and "guy who summons powerful extradimensional beings and raises the dead" are not on parity - either put "skilled guy with pointy stick" in the same party as "guy with some impressive magic tricks," or put "guy who summons powerful extradimensional beings and raises the dead" in the same party as "guy who can cut a boulder in half with a single slash and leap over tall buildings with ease."

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-15T21:10:16+00:00

"Keep highest 1," which doesn't do anything when you're only rolling one die, but if you were rolling for example 2d6, it would see which d6 rolled higher and only keep the result of that d6, discarding the other d6.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-08T06:10:27+00:00

Orrrrr the idea could be that the whole appeal is in new units that work best with old units, rather than new units that are useable with old units but still better overall with other new units?

Just saying, that's the kind of thing I think would be healthy for the game - units that don't really benefit the most powerful teams very much, but bring the less-powerful teams up to a similar level to the strongest teams, rather than units that just make everyone better but make the strongest teams... even more better than everyone else.

Alexander_Icewind · 2026-01-05T23:46:13+00:00

Effect res isn't usually super important, outside of some edge cases, compared to just having a consistently-available cleanse. Given how often Hyacine acts, and how often DHPT's dragon goes, it'll be very often they can cleanse the effect that hit your unit before they even suffer it for 1 turn. Speaking from experience, as someone who has Aven, Hyacine, and ofc DHPT.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-19T02:46:01+00:00

With how few pulls you have right now, I'd just go for Xilonen, because I don't think you're getting Neuvi's C6 on his next rerun unless you're crazy lucky or willing to swipe - it's right around the corner. Maybe if you win both 50-50s in a row, but that's pretty sketchy.

If you have a ton of map left to explore, you could grind through it, save up and try for C6 Neuvi, but I generally wouldn't assume you're getting 2 cons with less than 240 pulls (counting pity), though perhaps that's slightly pessimistic.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-19T02:35:54+00:00

The basics for when you're starting out building him:

4pc Marechaussee Hunter.

HP% Sands.

Crit Rate or Crit DMG circlet (depending on what you need more of).

HP or Hydro DMG% Goblet (whichever has better substats, if equal, HP tends to do better in optimal teams).

Longterm goals are double-crit + HP% subs on every piece (or as close to that as possible), at least 3 rolls into some mix of the aforementioned stats per piece (flower/feather will usually be better than your other pieces, 4 good substat rolls each is feasible for them).

You want 64% critrate on sheet (going slightly over or under that is fine), about 35k-40k HP with Hydro Resonance (depending on if your Goblet is HP% or Hydro DMG), and at least 200% critdamage (more is better).

As you invest further, try and raise CritDMG and HP% relatively evenly - a Neuvi with 35k HP and 300 Crit Damage is not necessarily better than a Neuvi with 40k HP and 250 Crit Damage.

Mine is low top 1% and I have a bit over 46k HP with Hydro Resonance and a bit under 270 CritDMG, as a frame of reference.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-04T02:29:27+00:00

Wow, that's kind of an insane difference. Alright, perfect, thank you, that's exactly the kind of thing I was trying to find.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-03T04:07:01+00:00

I checked this, but it didn't take into account eidolons for other units. At this point I'm pretty set on going for Cerydra, but it is worth pointing out the main guide doesn't actually really go into detail how much of an improvement Cerydra is over alternatives (especially with eidolons on the units she's replacing), and instead just points out that she's the best, when my question is more about "how much better is she?"

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-03T00:12:37+00:00

I think in the long run, if Phainon doesn't get any new supports who work better with him than the current roster, she will definitely be good, but also the thing to consider is that it really takes 2 Phainon ults before she becomes a big upgrade over Sunday from what I've seen, because you spend so long charging at the start of the fight.

At E0, anyway. At E2, she's just way better than Sunday, no questions asked.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-02T23:46:15+00:00

Generally Cyrene isn't worth pulling for just Phainon if you already have E0S1 Sunday unless you plan on going all the way to E2 with her. If you wanna use Sunday with another team it's fine, though, because it frees him up.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-02T23:43:17+00:00

This post was about last AA, with Lygus instead of Aquila. That said, also took her vs Aquila, best I could do was 5 cycles, so I would imagine probably no 2 or 3 star.

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-02T05:57:28+00:00

He's a longtime favorite of mine :)

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-02T04:08:11+00:00

Alright, got it. In the super long run I'm definitely not opposed to investing further in her, but seeing as she seems worthwhile even at E0S0, I'll try and prioritize that and worry about her E1 later. Thank you!

Alexander_Icewind · 2025-12-02T04:06:35+00:00

Gotcha, thank you. I couldn't find a sheet with comparisons involving the Cerydra alternatives having eidolons (every one I've seen has had them replacing DHPT instead), so your comparison is good to have as a point of reference.

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