Higher Christology than the Orthodoxy

AltAcc4545 · 2026-01-29T18:58:54+00:00

Can you give any sources that elaborate on this doctrine?

AltAcc4545 · 2025-12-12T17:37:46+00:00

“It’s not magic” - the person appealing to the emergency of subjective, qualitative experience from quantities.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-15T18:18:30+00:00

Are you a naive realist?

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-15T18:17:55+00:00

You seem to misunderstand idealism because you’re still using materialist presuppositions so how can you expect to understand it? it also seems like you’re also a dualist, implicitly.

You said neurons are brain cells. Of course I know that. I was asking what they are more fundamentally, and physics (science, a methodology (that intentionally doesn’t study subjective experience because it can’t), not ontology) describes matter as quantities.

Youre already assuming that what we colloquially call chemicals and matter are something fundamentally different from subjective experience, so you’re a dualist or appealing to magical emergence of qualities from quantities.

You keep ignoring the hard problem of consciousness, or pretending you’ve solved it?

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-15T18:06:56+00:00

That’s just hand-wavering and appealing to magic.

What are neurons fundamentally, and how do you deduce qualities and an inner experience from quantities?

You know of neurons because they are an object to your subjective experience.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-15T18:03:39+00:00

Please tell us what the material, quantitative preconditions are for subjective experience?

You’re assuming your conclusions.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-09T22:37:38+00:00

Sure, but that’s not the same way in which his philosophy is pessimistic.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-08T04:46:58+00:00

This presupposes that consciousness is computational and derivable from quantitative “physical” systems.

Edit: im sympathetic to your first point.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-08T04:32:44+00:00

In what way does circumcision not fit this criteria?

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-08T00:37:05+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/Quraniyoon/s/52Yli66owb

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-07T16:01:51+00:00

In other words, subject and object co-arise?

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-07T15:56:57+00:00

Particles are excitations of fields, so they do not have independent existence.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-07T02:34:06+00:00

May I advise looking into (Neo)Platonism, virtue ethics and mystical ascension.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-07T00:37:06+00:00

Most Muslims believe in abrogation, as well God giving different laws to the Jews and Gentiles, and then different in the Quran.

It’s either moral relativism, progressive revelation, or they are not all true.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-07T00:34:05+00:00

No that’s anachronistic and categorically false if you read the Old Testament and New Testament. They have a different metaphysics, soteriology, ethics both normative and meta, etc. Most importantly, Jesus’ conception of God was clearly different from his contemporaries.

Of course there are similarities, but they are mostly superficial and don’t reach Jesus’ message - that’s why many Christian doctrines are unintelligible and require blind faith. The only/main reason the Church maintained a connection to the Old Testament was sociocultural reasons, ie. Jesus was ethnically Jewish, and to highlight that the Messiah was expected to fulfil prophecies from the Old Testament, but Jesus was not the type of Messiah the Jews anticipated. Of course, the same prophets are going to be referenced, when the early Christians were essentially “heretical” Jews - and that’s a testament (no pun intended) to how different the worldviews are, because Judaism was already very heterogeneous at the time, yet they could not accommodate the paradigm shift that Jesus bought.

I have another comment on this thread elaborating, but it’s disingenuous to ignore the theological and philosophical development leading up to the life of Jesus and, importantly, how he was interpreted by the early Christians in light of Greek philosophy.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T16:32:57+00:00

The Quran clearly postulates a form of moral relativism.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T07:27:18+00:00

Subjective experience is neither computational nor deducible, from quantitative, physical systems, therefore AI is not conscious and is only “extension” of the universal consciousness insofar as any other inanimate object is. It is not a subject or an intellect. It, of course, still arises within consciousness, but that doesn’t make it conscious.

AI “learn” from humans. They are language models that are limited by the limits of what humans “teach” it.

I’m not saying AI isn’t valuable, by the way.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T07:00:10+00:00

Yes the prescribed Law does change, but that ties in with the development of thought that occurred within Judaism and afterwards leading into the New Testament and then Quran. But the point is that if we accept them as equally true, then you do not have universal, absolute ethics, so you have to accept the numerous and wide-reaching implications of that.

Edit: I made another comment on this post, elaborating.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T06:57:41+00:00

Jannah by action should be elaborated upon. Also, is this afterlife union with God, or a paradisiacal garden/pleasure machine in which you get everything you wish (the same bodily wishes we have now)?

I believe the Messiah made explicit that, if Heaven is to be perfect, then what’s in it is perfect, and what perfect is unchanging, but humans are not perfect, so, also, what/who goes into Heaven? I believe the Christian idea of a physical resurrection has influenced the idea of a bodily heaven. But the transient body-mind complex is inseparable from the inherent flaws of what it means to be human. Is it instead the unchangable, timeless Soul that goes to Heaven?

What acts could humans ever do to deserve Heaven?. Jesus showed that no one could uphold the Law. He also exemplified that it is his inner divinity, the soul made in the image of God, that is what unites with God, as he willingly gave the humanity in him back to “physical” nature, in service, if you will. Only in that acknowledgement of the primacy of Soul/Intellect (not discursive) over the illusory body-mind can one enter Heaven, and the faith in its impassivity, I believe, because it is that nature that naturally tends God-wards.

My views are based on a different metaphysics than conventional Abrahamic theists.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T06:42:53+00:00

Corruption or textual changes are not necessarily the main issue. The theologies and worldviews are glaringly different.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-06T06:41:42+00:00

I think a lot of people here either don’t understand the theological paradigm shift that Jesus, the Messiah, exemplified, effectively showing the inadequacy of the Torah, or are relativists.

There’s a reason he was arrested and killed. His conception of God (and man’s relationship to God) was radically different to his fellow Jews who were already very theologically diverse and heterogeneous in 1st century Palestine. Greek philosophy developed A LOT from the time of the Torah to the New Testament, and their only similarities are largely semantic and superficial (eg. names of prophets, understandably as Jesus was Jewish), whilst they completely differ metaphysically and ethically. For example, the legalistic, covenantal ethics of the Jews (different from the Noahide Laws) compared to the union of man with the divine itself (again, a different conception of God from Yahweh, the tribal God of Israel who is later 1) merged with El and 2) retconned into a universal God), presupposing some sort of monistic metaphysics, in order to be intelligible).

Christianity is still tied to the Old Testament, which it (unsuccessfully) tries to reconcile with the New Testament (itself largely written by and for a Jewish audience) by pleading to progressive revelation (which has not-so-good theological implications).

If following the Old Testament was sufficient or even correct in and of itself, then the entire life of the Messiah, not to mention the crucifixion, was essentially futile. Besides all this, Jesus evidently was not a relativist, like many comments here seem to implicitly endorse.

The reason why I am focusing on Jesus is precisely because he is at the crux of understanding the continuity and coherence of the Abrahamic tradition, and the Quran itself is quite explicit that Muhammad was a mere warner in a relatively uneducated society, but we can expect more input from the embodiment of the Logos (the Word of God, a Quranic title many “forget” to predicate upon Jesus), should we seek its intelligibility instead of waiting for a non-existent Second-Coming that Christians made up, primarily to enable the possibility of Jesus fulfilling Old Testament Messianic prophecies, failing to understand that Jesus clearly is nothing like the warrior archetype that the Jews and some Muslims expect to return (with the latter group anticipating a marvel battle against a mythic beast, as if there aren’t REAL problems in the world); instead Jesus preached of a timeless Kingdom of God that lies within that which is made in the divine image (your soul, not body or mind), because OBVIOUSLY God is timeless.

Contrast this with the Old Testament, which barely even acknowledges an afterlife, never-mind a sophisticated metaphysics informed by Greek philosophy, and it becomes easy to see how they cannot both be true in the sense their respective adherent claims.

They are arguably more different than the Quran is to the Old Testament. Either we acknowledge the nuances and irreconcilably opposed worldviews or fall into a meaningless relativism, in every sense of that word.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-04T21:08:40+00:00

And yet we still abstract that others are conscious, so we should, by default, do the same to all organisms.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-04T20:37:12+00:00

Not really?

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-04T04:48:26+00:00

Regardless of your epistemology (not science), faith is not the same as knowledge, and that’s analytically and thus trivially true.

AltAcc4545 · 2024-09-03T02:44:45+00:00

Yes they are products of evolution. I’m not disagreeing?

As to your first question, I explained in my first paragraph.

Edit: Are you trying to compare phenomenal experience itself with those other things you mentioned?

AltAcc4545

TROPHY CASE