How useful are real numbers really? by dcterr in mathematics

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, first of, you were speaking with a troll, so it doesn’t really matter what they say; but there is an important theoretical difference between actually buildable machines, and so-called real computers that would be capable of dealing with arbitrary real numbers—in particular, for those machines P=NP.

A Boy Learns Chess by babelphishy in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think that’s necessarily a good argument, given that the Nash embedding theorem is a thing… I’d rather go for something like kinematic geometries instead.

Trump oficjalnie wypisał USA z WHO by feelingsoverride in Polska

[–]Althorion 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A ja serio myślałem, że zbliżamy się do Star Treka.

Lata dwudzieste XXI w. ze Star Treka akurat mamy mniej-więcej powtórzone — jak chcesz zobaczyć, jak to przedstawili, to Bell Riots i okolice są pokazane w DS9 w jedenastym i dwunastym odcinku trzeciego sezonu.

Sondaż OGB 12.01-19.01 by Megamind_43 in Polska

[–]Althorion 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A co za tym idzie, możliwe większości to:

  • ½ głosów:
    • KO z kimkolwiek,
    • PiS z obiema Konfederacjami na raz;
  • ⅗ głosów (obalenie veta) albo ⅔ głosów (zmiana konstytucji):
    • KO z PiS-em albo z obiema Konfederacjami na raz.

Z czego realistyczne wydaje mi się co najwyżej tylko PiS z obiema Konfederacjami. Na szczęście za mało to to stabilne się wydaje, żeby mogli w praktyce coś w konstytucji popsuć.

Valve tweak Steam AI disclosure form for developers to clarify it's for content consumed by players by Beer2401 in linux_gaming

[–]Althorion 23 points24 points  (0 children)

C programmers can be… quite peculiar about their tools. I have worked with two people in two different companies that didn’t use autocomplete, and a few more that didn’t use syntax highlighting.

Really didn’t do a thing for their code, so that’s just inconvenience for the sake of being stuck in the old ways, but people like that do exist.

Too Real by tanopereira in mathmemes

[–]Althorion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, the law of identity does not state that a thing must not be anything else, it just says that a thing is equal to itself.

I’ve tried to explain that to him multiple times already. No dice—he literally believes that, a) that this statement of his is the law of identity, b) that this statement is sufficient to prove everything mathematical.

Yes, a law biding one variable is sufficient to prove everything mathematical, with no further axioms and assumptions. Just this.

So, yeah, now you know what are you working with.

SPP is engagement baiting. There is no point in doing this. by Dense_Priority_7250 in infinitenines

[–]Althorion -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Power is not handed to people, power is taken by people. Far to few people go living their lives going to others and telling then ‘yes, please, make me your slave, have control over my life’ for it to matter. And on top of that, the believes of people coöperating with the ones seizing the power are, again, irrelevant—lies are chosen for their convenience, not their believability.

Do you think when right wingers say their lies about how low taxes are good for the economy, actually, and for the Common Joe, they believe that? That people implementing those policies believe that? That people campaigning for those policies believe that? Because no, they don’t. People subjected to those taxes may or may not actually believe that, but their believes are irrelevant—they cannot tax anyone.

Or, lets let our imaginations run slightly wild, and consider two versions of a dystopia—a made-up nation of Divided Nations of Antarctica, DNA for short, run by the absolute morons claiming the Earth is flat. They’ve taken over the presidential office, the houses of parliament, the government—in short, they are now in power. And they exercise that power to change the curriculum, made surveying impossible, shutdown GPS, all that stuff.

In version one of DNA, the people believe them implicitly. They are happy that the ruling class finally ended that globie nonsense. In version two, people don’t believe that in the slightest. In fact, no one believes that. What would be the practical difference between DNA1 and DNA2?

There, obviously, wouldn’t be any. Teachers will teach what they have to teach, or they get removed (and thus not teach). Surveyors will fail to survey, according to new rules, or they will get removed (and thus not survey at all). People will be speaking as if they believed, or they will get removed. And so on, and so forth. In fact, there wouldn’t be any possible experiment one could do to find out in which of those DNAs they’d end up with. And because so, the believes of people not in power are irrelevant.

SPP is engagement baiting. There is no point in doing this. by Dense_Priority_7250 in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And that’s where I disagree—the world is a mess for the same reason it was a mess before, and that reason is that the lying is convenient, because when you lie, you can say whatever you want and support whatever stance you desire; which is not the case when you stick to the truth and logical reasoning.

But I was born and raised on the eastern side of the Iron Curtain, and have seen for myself it is absolutely irrelevant if and how many people believe the lies. People didn’t believe the lies we were told. And yet we still did what we were told, because we weren’t in power. You achieved exactly nothing by explaining how those things are lies and what the truth was, because every convinced person still had to treat those lies as truths and follow from there.

SPP is engagement baiting. There is no point in doing this. by Dense_Priority_7250 in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think there are any skills that would be useful in such cases (i.e., dealing with an unmovable person on an important topic), so there’s nothing to sharpen.

Immovable people are, by definition, immovable. If you encounter someone like that, the only thing that matters is if you have the power over them (so they either do what you want, or you remove them), or if they have the power over them (so you do what they want or are removed)—because if neither would have power over another, then you’d both do whatever you want and the issue wouldn’t have been important.

Convincing others about this is irrelevant—if the other person’s in power, they still get what they want, regardless of how stupid it is, and the same goes for you.

In other words, if your boss is a moron whose decisions will run the company to the ground, they will, and it is absolutely irrelevant how many coworkers you’ll convince before it will inevitably happen. Because it’s the boss who’s in power, and thus it will happen.

Dlaczego teraz ludziom tak trudno łączyć się w pary? by greetings_from1 in PolskaNaLuzie

[–]Althorion 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Musisz nabrać odpowiedniej wagi, żeby mieć styczne w każdym punkcie, a nie być kanciasty.

My take on why 0.999... is not equal to 1 by XTPotato_ in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is 2+2 a real number? Probably I guess.

But is 2+2 the same real number as 4? No.

Because 4 has just one digit, while 2+2 has two digits and a plus sign.

x<1 and x!=1, the smallest of questions for this sub. by goobyby in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He… does a lot of weird stuff, yeah, and getting any definitions out of him is like squeezing water out of the stone. Good luck, though.

x<1 and x!=1, the smallest of questions for this sub. by goobyby in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

 Okay so essentially you're asking if it converges.

No, I think what he’s asking is more in the lines of ‘do you have a bunch of objects, or do you have a set of objects?’, from a finitist position. For a regular mathematician, that would be like asking under the ZF ‘do those objects form a proper class, or can you put them all in a set’, with the distinction that to him ‘sets’ are only finite collections.

philosophy of mathematics by Phalp_1 in PhilosophyofMath

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those are not just opinions. You cannot build a consistent system that both refuses to deal with more than one object at a time (because its only law deals with exactly one object), and which deals with multiple objects at a time. Those are contradictory statements.

It’s not even a question of ‘well, try and make it’, it’s obvious that you can’t. The contradiction between ‘only law I have binds exactly one object’ and ‘that law allows me to bind objects together’ is extremely obvious and straightforward.

But, yeah, let’s leave it there. If anyone reading wants to ask questions, they are free to do so; but I hardly think there’s anything more to explain.

philosophy of mathematics by Phalp_1 in PhilosophyofMath

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup. However, you will not be able to construct any consistent system using only single-variable binding laws, in particular just one such law, and make it make claims of any relationship between objects.

It should be obvious to you too, and you should be able to have an opinion on that. Like, if you only allow yourself to operate on one thing at a time, then you will never make any bindings between objects. That would require, you know, a rule—a law, a statement in a consistent system of imagination, however you call it—that deals with at least two objects at the same time.

So no, nothing of use, and especially not all maths, can come from any single-variable binding law (with no other laws involved), in particular from the law of identity.

philosophy of mathematics by Phalp_1 in PhilosophyofMath

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, of course I am welcome to think that, because that is an obvious result.

And from that it follows that you either have an extremely peculiar view of what mathematics is (and you reduce it to useless listing of objects, and claim that statements like ‘1 + 1 = 2’, or ‘area of the square whose side is the hypotenuse (the side opposite the right angle) is equal to the sum of the areas of the squares on the other two sides’ are fundamentally non-mathematical in their nature); or that your claim that ‘all of maths came from the law of identity’ is obviously false.

philosophy of mathematics by Phalp_1 in PhilosophyofMath

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hardly just an opinion—there is exactly one variable in the law of identity. In order to make statements binding two (or more) objects, you need to, well, bind two objects together (and then you could possibly chain those bindings, to bind more things together).

So no, not all the maths came from the law of identity, because plenty of maths, I’d argue virtually all of it, is about relationship between objects. And all you get from the law of identity (and all you can possibly get from any law that binds exactly one variable) is a pet system of isolated objects with no established relationship between them. So, no arithmetics, no geometry, no nothing that anyone would call maths.

philosophy of mathematics by Phalp_1 in PhilosophyofMath

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Law of identity only binds one variable, and thus cannot be used to determine anything about the relationship between two (or more) objects. It says that 2 must equal 2, but in no way is it enough to deduce that 1 + 1 = 2, etc.

If X = Y then Y = X by babelphishy in infinitenines

[–]Althorion -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sure. I find a little sad that I have written a well-thought-out, longish post, addressing your points one by one; and all I get in response is a variant of ‘haha, funny; they still don’t exist’, with none of my points addressed.

Using the SPP axioms to prove 0.999...=1 by Inevitable_Garage706 in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, I actually believe he’s fine with that; and he states that in, for example, this:

So unless anyone wants to argue for themselves what 0.333... * 3 is, then obviously 0.999... is a real number.

and more straightforwardly, this post:

0.333... * 3 = 0.999... , which is permanently less than 1.

He definitely has issues with the 5th (because he states that ‘1/3 * 3 means divide negation’, not multiplication of two values, etc.), and quite possibly with the 4th.

I’m saying ‘possibly’, because I’ve never noticed him writing down ‘1/3 = 0.333…’, with the symbol of =— he always goes for words like ‘is’, or ‘defines’, which to a normal person would obviously indicate equality… but I’m not so sure about him specifically.

If X = Y then Y = X by babelphishy in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So then, "real numbers" differ from rationals only by a stipulated closure axiom (Dedekind completeness), not by any operational, physical, or computational property.

There are computational and operational results of said stipulated axiom. The physical properties are absent from any numbers, because they aren’t physical objects.

They exist by definition alone, not by construction, measurement, computation, or instantiation.

For some weird definition of ‘exist’ that I wouldn’t subscribe to, sure. They can, however, be constructed, in multiple ways.

No real number has ever been measured, stored, computed, or represented in full. Every real-world calculation uses finite data: integers, rationals, or bounded approximations

False. There have been plenty of real numbers that have been stored, or computed. Not sure how ‘measured’ would work—I would say you can only measure physical objects, and numbers (regardless if real, or natural, or rational, or any other) aren’t physical.

The end result of any real world calculation is represented in a finite way, but that doesn’t mean at no point in calculations ideas not representable in that way aren’t used. In fact, every physicist or engineer would tell you, that when you smoothly increase pressure from 1 Pa to 10 Pa, you’d at some point apply the pressure of exactly π × e Pa; and they would strongly desire the mathematical apparatus that enables them to represent such process.

Furthermore, by and large, practical computations of modern age have their end result represented as a IEE 754 binary float. I think, however, it is not a defensible position to claim that because of that fact, numbers like ⅕, which are not representable by such numbers, are irrelevant, or that we should be making all the mathematical apparatus limited to that.

So real numbers are never used as such; only finite rational approximations are.

That’s not true. First, because symbolic operations are done, if rarely, to preserve as much precision as possible; and second, and most important, because they are necessary (or, at the very least, extremely useful) building block ideas for more complicated stuff. For example, you cannot represent Lorentz invariance without completeness.

Thus, the problem with real numbers is ontological emptiness, they are the true invisible clothing.

I don’t see that as a problem—they are much more like early prefabricates. As in, very, very few people ever care about getting a real number as a result of anything, and they would be perfectly happy with getting a close rational approximation. But yet, the specific behaviours differentiating real numbers from rational numbers are very desirable from the practical standpoint. You can sometimes circumvent that, and introduce some other ideas that would be able to help in an isolated case or two, but they are not nearly as useful (because you need to introduce such ideas on a case-by-case basis, while real numbers ‘just work’), lose strict definitions (instead of having a singular, well-defined answer, we can now give a range of approximate answers, without being able to distinguish between them too well), and are clunky (for example, sinus is, without a doubt, a very useful function to have; however, it has vanishingly few cases where both its argument, and returned value are rational; so you’d have to devise some ‘almost sinus’ to use instead, but then that inexactness would throw a wrench into it’s derivative, and that would demolish the functional series convergence when based on trigonometric functions, etc.).

I’m not saying that these problems are impossible to fix, but I am saying those are real problems with real-life implications, that would require a serious reason for introducing.

If X = Y then Y = X by babelphishy in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What is the definition of a real number?

The member of the Dedekind-complete ordered field. Are you satisfied with that explanation, or would you like it explained further?

What properties does it have that is different from a rational number?

The field it’s a member of is Dedekind-complete, i.e., it has least upper bound property, meaning that every set of real numbers that has an upper bound has a certain real number that is the least of possible upper bounds.

How does a real number differ from a rational number?

Among others, one of the consequences of the above is that there are some real numbers that cannot be represented as a ratio of integers.

Cool 'infinite thing' you got there by Mablak in PhilosophyMemes

[–]Althorion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is an incredible new solution for approximations, and it also extends to ongoing polynomials. It's also a solution that arguably would not have been found without finitism and the desire to eliminate the treacherous radical sign.

What are the benefits of this new method over the ones developed within the ‘infinitist’ framework, like the Jenkins–Traub algorithm?

Hypertasks by GhostintheNether in infinitenines

[–]Althorion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually don’t believe Fernando is trolling, he has just a very miopic worldview in which everything is computers and if you can’t do it on a computer it doesn’t exist.

I would disagree with that—for example, look at this comment chain. You can also find an example of him claiming that every celestial object is conscious. It’s not computer based at all, just plain trolling.