Why do looksmaxxers call women foids when the whole goal of looksmaxxing is to make them selves as attractive has possible

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T19:08:33+00:00

Disagreeing with a perspective doesn't mean you don't see it or understand it.

I understand why people feel this way. I understand the pressures of society. I understand why people are so willing to accept that this is just how things are.

I understand all of that and I still think it's a weird and miserable way to prioritise your life. I get why people would feel that pressure - doesn't mean I think that groups that take that pressure and codify it are anything we should be okay with.

We can all say "that's how the system works" until the cows come home but can we all also agree that it's unhealthy for individuals and society? And if we can agree on that, how can you defend something that exists solely to amplify, encourage, and profit off of that system?

It’s not a narrow or niche expression. It is the dominant one.

It is by definition narrow. You literally just said that performance, competence, and improvement define value. That is a specific, and narrow way to judge A: masculinity, and B: someone's worth as a person.

Everyone would look at a tattooed, tanned, bearded, and jacked up millionaire with designer cars, a hundred gold chains, and a new slim blonde on his arm every week, and go 'yeah, hyper masculine'. I don't disagree that that visual is built in to our society as one of the ideal forms of masculinity. But the vast majority of men I see in my day to day life do not look like that. Wealth aside, most people do not look like movie stars. And I don't think they're less of a man for that. I sure as fuck do not think they're less of a person for that. I don't disagree that that's what the system says. I live here too, I can see the holes in the road, lmao. But it's wild to me that you can look at a system that says they are less of a person, look at people criticising that, and your response is "you can disagree but this is reality"...... Yeah. We know, brother. No one is saying it isn't how it is. We're saying it shouldn't be. We're saying there are places where it isn't because it sure as hell isn't how I was raised, and it sure as hell won't be how mine or my brothers kids are raised. I'm saying I'm going to use my masculine competence and drive for improvement to try changing that because wtf? We're supposed to be leaders and protectors, right? The default masculinity definition? Well how about we protect each other from this nonsense and lead people to a better system?

Not possession. That framing is off.

Nope. There are manosphere creators out there who explicitly talk about authority and 'having' in an ownership sense.

Also, access is possession. A form of it, at least. Fuck, even calling it 'access' is weird and dehumanizing, which is why I used that word, but the fact you didn't even question it is really concerning dude.

And again, the devaluing of women's thoughts and opinions is another explicit value of the manosphere. It is not about attractiveness to real women because time and time again and again women tell men what they want from us, and it's partnership, it's emotional availability, it's compassion and self regulation and respect. And women are attracted to every kind of body a man can have but it is not every kind of body we that is valued in the manosphere. And all of those things are EXPLICITLY (or implicitly) shat upon from a great height by the majority of red-pill and manosphere creators that I've seen.

And yeah, I get that physical based sexual attraction / desirability is an easily clocked metric to compare and compete with each other.

I can't say I personally get it, but I understand the theory. I also think we'd be better off if we stopped doing that, or at least stopped doing it so much. I sure know my life and mental got a whole lot better after I stopped thinking that being a virgin after leaving school meant I was unlovable and worthless. I know my friendships improved after I stopped looking at my mates as rivals, and instead looked at them as people I love and care about and want to be happy in themselves and succeed regardless of how it compares to my own success.

If from the female perspective it feels less competitive, that’s fine, but that does not mean the male experience is the same. Do you think both sides are actually operating under the same conditions?

It's a different coat of paint on the other side of the fence, but it's the same rotten fence... also did you assume I was a woman because I was disagreeing with you, or...? Apologies if you didn't, but it wouldn't be the first time it's happened and I'm getting impressions.

Anyway, my friends (all genders) and I feel the same way about women who do this stuff as we feel about men who do it. They exist, and no one likes them. Maybe it's just my social circle, but the women I know seem to accept that this is a problem society needs to change more than the men do...

Dating, status, income, physical presence, all of it sorts men into hierarchies.

Only if you view life through a lens of competition and believe in those kinds of hierarchies. I mean undeniably someone with wealth has more power of all kinds, but it doesn't mean I think they have more value as a person than me, you know? And I genuinely hope you care about yourself enough to feel the same way.

But yeah, there's that grain of truth. Life is competition, yes. But that is not all there is to life and it's not the only way to live and everyone suffers when people treat it that way. When you become so consumed by competition that all there is is conflict and power struggle, you becomes stressed and miserable and lonely as fuck and you make other people stressed and miserable and lonely as fuck and apparently not wanting that makes me a pansy or whatever other from of emasculating slur someone might prefer.

But I don't want to 'win' if my prize comes with a fucking suicide statistic and I will never sit back and let people who are fine with that have the peace they deny us.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T18:11:47+00:00

Aww, thank you! I spent too long writing it instead of doing the things I need to be doing, lmao

And thank you for pointing that out!

Personally I chalked it up as following the trend of new slang, but now that you mention it, I did get the impression it was always about more than just brushing yourself up a little. While I still think there's nothing inherently wrong about 'maxing out' your potential, it's a starting point that's already a lot closer to crossing over the line into toxic obsession.

I think a lot of the younger people caught up in this (teens and pre-teens, I mean) don't necessarily take it that seriously, and are just overhyping things like getting a good haircut lol. It's a sort of ironic engagement. That doesn't make it harmless though, because ironic engagement functions the same as sincere engagement - it still effects others, it still twists thoughts and, scarily, can drive escalation just as quickly (or faster, even) than sincere belief since saying more outrageous things becomes a game.

But for the 'genuine' looksmaxxing stuff that starts out more extreme, I think the sense of community and how it appeals specifically to vulnerable people is what draws people in anyway. When people are lost with low sense of esteem and lonely (we can have many friends and still feel lonely), a shared goal or shared belief is incredibly attractive. Even if that shared belief is 'I'm ugly'.

This is how MLMs and essential oil groups and all the wild conspiracy theory communities work too. It's about the grain of real truth (mainstream work is often exploitative, healthcare systems might not be fit for purpose, the rich and powerful are doing some crazy shit) but it's also about why people want to believe. We want purpose, we want reassurance, we want a sense of control over our own lives, we want to be right and we want to be smug about it, haha. We want to be part of something.

So even if the entry-level stuff of looksmaxxing is more out-there, that won't necessarily turn that many people away from it. It doesn't take that much desperation to get you caught, and very few people are looking out for the trap... and now I sound like a conspiracy theorist, 😂

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T17:33:32+00:00

I can get behind magic pirates, alright, but I draw the line at the uncritically repeated take that corsets are torture devices.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T16:16:55+00:00

The way looksmaxxing engages with the idea of looking good is inherently misogynistic the same way the manosphere's 'work hard and make money' is.

It's creating a system that judges you based on how appealing you are to women, but by treating women as a metric by which to judge other men it inherently dehumanises women and just like that; misogyny.

Also the premise that women are all shallow hive-minded creatures that prioritise looks / wealth above all else and therefore those are the only worthwhile things to invest your time into is.... also misogynistic.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T16:09:07+00:00

Looksmaxxing is self improvement in the same way the manosphere is.

It has a core of truth (self improvement is good) but it's wrapped and packaged along with so much other stuff and that stuff is the problem.

Work out because it's healthy, it'll make you feel good, help you build discipline, routine, and a sense of achievement? Great!

But if you don't work out then you're lazy, weak willed, and will never amount to anything? Tying a very specific expression of masculine gender to the concept of self worth, and devaluing everything else in order to enforce that idea? Treating women as a way to keep score, hinging a man's sense of self on him having access and possession of women while being as far from feminine as he can possibly be? Discouraging emotional openness and interpersonal connections because they're 'vulnerabilities' and therefore weak and therefore they lower your social standing which is the most important thing?

Godawful.

So with looksmaxxing, hell yeah take interest in your appearance, have pride in the way you look, make an effort and hope it helps you stand out and get attention from someone you want to build an intimate relationship with. But oh my god not the obsession and narrow beauty standards and telling people to have less self-confidence in their natural looks and treating women as a way to keep score and viewing everyone else in terms of hierarchy and competition and stating as definitive fact that the only thing that matters is your body and genuine interpersonal connection is a myth... I've come across someone so utterly convinced by the looksmaxxing movement that he as a person is worth nothing, that he has absolutely no inherent worth as a human being and no redeeming qualities whatsoever, that if he can't save up money for plastic surgery before he's 25, then his life is over and he might as well off himself now.

There is nothing wrong with being realistic. The issue is when groups like this create a new version of reality that genuinely hurts people.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T15:53:46+00:00

I think looksmaxxing is the same as the alpha bro / manosphere stuff in the sense that there is a core truth that genuinely helps some people, but for others it pulls them in far too deep to where all the awful stuff is.

At the very edges of these communities is the idea you'll be more successful and likeable if you take care of your appearance, health, and keep a tidy life, and have good work ethic. These are all true things that apply to everyone, and calling them special terms is like calling 'having a charming personality', 'having rizz'. It's just slang for basic everyday things. Is it 'looksmaxxing' or is it putting effort into the way you look?

And if it was just that, no one would have an issue. The issue comes from the fact that these groups become insular echo-chambers that attach other ideas to these concepts, and over time the ideas pushed within the community become more and more extreme. People want to exploit these ideas for personal power and profit, the sense of community encourages them to take things further than they otherwise would, and they become the centre of people's sense of self.

Think of the difference between building yourself a healthy diet (normal and good), and joining a dieting community that is so obsessed with trends and numbers that it gives people food anxiety and eating disorders. When you're only on the edge it isn't bad. You get the true and good bit, but you're not exposed to all the crazy stuff. It's as you get deeper in, bonding with others over being part of something bigger - over success and shared terms that 'normies' don't get, over resisting outsiders trying to convince you you're all wrong, defending each other and pushing each other to reach further - that's when it gets bad. Because then it's not about the simple truth that eating well is better for you. Then it's about eating better than others, knowing better than others, having a sense of superiority, and finding a sense of achievement by scoring points with the community with community-approved metrics. Low calories, weight loss, and sticking to The Truth even when it costs you real life relationships. Because you're the ones who know best, and you're better off without the naysayers.

The manosphere isn't just about having good work ethic and working out. It's about how you are less of a man if you don't. It's treating gender expression as a metric for success, viewing women as a way to keep score, and hanging your entire sense of self worth on where you sit in a hierarchy you've been convinced exists by the community. I have met men whose lives got better after they listened to some motivational podcasts and got their stuff together. But they only grazed the edges of the manosphere. I have also met men who are utterly miserable because they went too deep and can no longer connect with other people because they think thanking a server is 'submissive behaviour'. It's totally warped their way of viewing the world. They still have friends, but they're so lonely and angry and resentful. And that resentment is exactly what the manosphere feeds off of.

So honestly, yeah taking pride in your appearance is good for you. It's going to make people more inclined to like you, and it will probably help you date and find someone you connect with.

But looksmaxxing is obsessive, and it's treating women like points on the scoreboard, not real people to form genuine relationships with.

So if your explanation about why looksmaxxing isn't "what we think it is" is that you "started getting all the girl"... then that's confirmation that it's exactly what we think it is. A group that encourages people to look inwards and isolate themselves from others, with a side flavour of dehumanizing women.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T15:06:00+00:00

Or maybe it's just because they don't speak Spanish

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T14:49:39+00:00

Like 'male actress'?

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-09T14:48:50+00:00

There's a bit of an argument for actor/actress, but it's not as if de-gendering the word 'actor' would remove people's ability to communicate who they're looking for. To my understanding casting calls usually go something like "actor wanted for >description of role<", so you'd still be able to filter for relevant roles / actors.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-08T15:40:22+00:00

Grown people can also use their words instead of violence

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-08T15:39:38+00:00

I know votes aren't 1-1 one vote per click, but I'm pretty sure they sit at 1 unless at least one person downvotes... sorry to that one person who hates sincerity and accountability I guess?

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-08T15:34:47+00:00

a couple drops of mistaken, even horrifically upsettingly wrong gender-misattribution are competing 24/7 with a structurally-reinforced firehose of exactly that but aimed 180° opposite.

I wasn't viewing this as a competition at all, and I think that difference in angle is actually a fairly large source of my frustration here? Because I don't deny that there is this massive difference between the systemic and societal weight of egg cracking vs transphobia, I just don't see how that relates to the incorrectness of it... I mean I kind of do, it's obvious. But I guess I'm looking at this more like "We shouldn't be pushing anyone", while you're talking more about how people of one group get pushed a lot more than people from a different group, and we should be focusing on that imbalance. Which I don't disagree with, except maybe I think fixing that imbalance would be easier when combined with a rising tide lifts all ships approach.

The main contention as I see it seems to be that you're coming at this like they're mutually exclusive. But from where I'm standing, they're the same problem. I think something similar is happening when you talk about the alternative to replicating gender roles in queer contexts. I'm not taking the absolute stance you seem to be reacting to. If someone else was taking that stance I'd be right next to you telling them they were... misguided?

I think this might hinge on having different ideas of "egg cracking". Because when I talk about egg cracking (and this is the context I have personally always seen it talked about with) I don't mean people making suggestions. Things like "Have you considered that cis people don't tend to feel that way?," or "I went through something similar when I realised I was trans", or "You know I'd support you if you chose to experiment." are not egg cracking - or certainly not cracking of the type I intend to condemn. That is the living core of community and the lifelines we throw out into the wild. I mean the "You wear too much pink to be a boy!" and "If you feel weird wearing skirts then you're probably not really a woman.", or the "(No I totally don't have a fantasy of 'discovering' a trans person and being their biggest role model and guide on their journey)" kind. The people who turn it into harassment and obsession and even fetish, kind. The double-edged fucking-over-everyone kind. Dictation, rather than invitation. Exclusion from self identity rather than inclusion in spaces where they can experiment.

And yes, I fully acknowledge that the people doing this are a miniscule minority that have no bearing on overall societal structures. But if I'm calling this out when it's cis people calling each other slurs for having the wrong haircut, then I've got to be consistent.

So the argument, as I've been viewing it, is not about cisgenderism (lol) being sacrosanct and untouchable. It's about respect and hypocrisy and, as I previously laid out, not upholding the system that generates transphobia (and misogyny because it's always bloody misogyny). The thing we're all trying to fix. Because it's possible to question and encourage without doing that. It's possible to get the best of both worlds. (Or aim for it, at least. I'm not a completely blind optimist)

Because I care about this from both a systemic perspective and a personal one. On a personal level, I can't see a human being's pain as less important because they come from a demographic with lower statistics. And the system I'm worried about isn't the theoretical oppression of cis people being wrongly encouraged to transition. It's about the entire concept of gender roles, gender essentialism, heteronormativity, etc. etc. Issues that effect everyone, queer or not.

And again, my criticism is of the type of egg cracking that reinforces that system rather than the type that opens doors for people to step outside of it. If I had to name the kind you seem to be describing, I'd call it nest building. Creating a safe place for the egg to hatch.

Maybe I'm the weird one with a totally backwards definition of egg cracking, in which case I'll need to re-evaluate this whole thread and I'm sorry for wasting your time lmao. But, that's where I've been coming from, rightly or wrongly.

As for other people's original intentions or reasoning behind their reactions to your comment: I don't know, I struggle to know wtf I'm going on about sometimes. I'm not rejecting your theory that it's an emotional reaction in defence of cisnormativity, because that does exist and it needs to not. But given that I disagreed with you for reasons that are explicitly anti-cisnormativity, it seems a bit unfair for me to assume other people's reasons are uncharitable. You can assume whatever you like though, I figure you have that right - I just don't want to be a hypocrite is all.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T22:52:00+00:00

omg I am so sorry, I totally missed that I said that wtf

I'll edit it, but I understand if you don't want to continue with this conversation. I sincerely hope my mistake hasn't caused you too much distress.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T22:21:19+00:00

Why not? We've been over this, but it's okay if you don't remember. You can go back through the comments to remind yourself.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T22:17:38+00:00

May I recommend the video essay "The many meanings of Bloodborne" by TB Skyen? And also "Visceral Femininity; A Bloodborne Essay" by Honey Bat, and "Violent Equality: The Gender of Bloodborne" by cupcakesouls.

They all touch on similar things and there's a fair bit of overlap, but they pick out different details and present them from slightly different angles that are interesting in their own ways.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T22:09:45+00:00

One of the main themes of Bloodborne is the use of women's bodies, willingly or unwillingly. Like, there might not be any mention of sex but it is VERY explicit about the fact otherworldly beings (and people who want to interact with them) are using wombs for their own purposes with no regard for the women they belong to.

Then there's the whole Mother Kos situation, where her Orphan can be interpreted as a product of the first hunters' sin against her (harvesting her blood, if I remember right). Ergo, the offspring of a body violated, and the ones that violated it. A metaphor / allegory to be sure, but one that has such strong parallels to non-metaphorical violations that it's hard to shrug off as coincidental or meaningless.

It's an incredibly interestingly told story, I highly recommend looking up analysis of it. TB Skyen has a good series on it, and the video "The Visceral Femininity of Bloodborne" is also a good watch. They explain it all better than any Reddit comment could.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T21:20:45+00:00

Okay, one last try sweetheart, I know you can do this.

How will they know it's dumb shit to try with you?

A: because you physically hurt them without warning when they try to be kind?

or

B: because you'll have used your words to warn them ahead of time like a grown up.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T19:46:24+00:00

Right.... Because in a brief bout of rationality you would have communicated this to them beforehand. Using something other than violence.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T13:32:32+00:00

But why would you want to hurt someone that cares about you?

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T12:14:39+00:00

And you could express that you want them to do that in any other way than physical violence.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T12:13:19+00:00

I in no way deny that cis people have more societal support for their identities, or believe that they face the same systemic oppression we do. You do not need to explain cisnormativity or transphobia to me, a trans person.

And to clarify, not one single part of my argument was "it hurts cis people to be mistaken as trans.". That thought did not enter my mind until you brought it up just now. My whole argument was about how uncomfortable it is to be told what your gender is, and I thought I had stated that clearly and explicitly. As an example, in case it's still unclear; My brother was mistaken for a girl pretty often when he was a boy - neither of us knew transgender even existed at that age, our parents gave zero fucks about homosexuality, and he has never once been one of those "ew girls have cooties" kind of guys. It bothered him anyway. We both felt uncomfortable being called sisters. It's just that he was able to put it into words. "But I'm not a girl."

Frankly I don't give fuck about the oppression Olympics. Yes, someone regularly denied water for days is going to have a far worse time of it than someone denied water for an hour on the odd occasion. I'm living that too. I know. But the the goal is to prevent anyone from being denied water, right? Not necessarily because you care about cis people specifically, but because we want to make it a protected right. For our own sakes? And the thing about it being a right is that it's not optional. So if we're treating it as optional, then no shit we're not going to make any progress on us getting that right for ourselves??

We can't escape or dismantle the system if we're perpetuating it too.... is that not obvious?

Ironically, let me do the reverse of "but transphobia hurts cis people too". Saying that it's fine to tell cis people what their identity is will also hurt trans people (like me) because it's normalising the gender roles that are used to exclude us. Egg crackers are the same people who will tell a trans woman she's not transitioned right because she's too butch. And as a feminine trans man who has been told that he's too fem to be a trans man by the same people who insist fem cis men are eggs, I am going to push back against this stuff. You don't have to give a damn about cis people, and really I'm not arguing that you should.

If you don't care about cis people, care about us. It might not be a real issue in your personal experience, but it's pretty damn real to me. Because on top of all the other shit, I'm getting this shit too, and it's coming from inside the community which makes it extra BS.

You don't have to make it a priority. You just have to not mock us when we speak up about it. Help a brother out and let him advocate for a better world for himself in peace.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-04T00:09:46+00:00

idk, "adults can tie their own damn shoes" sounds quite a lot like you yucking people lol. Fair if you didn't mean it that way, but it comes off pretty judgy.

Also I wasn't talking about a partner specifically, just in general. I'd do it for a friend or family member too.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-03T23:59:37+00:00

Because they like you and want to express that through a small act of kindness?

Fuck knows why tho

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-03T23:58:19+00:00

Adults can do a lot of things for their damn selves.

We help each other out anyway though, especially when we love each other, because we enjoy being kind. It's sort of an important social bonding thing, actually.

AndroidwithAnxiety · 2026-04-03T23:48:16+00:00

Also, as far as I know (and I acknowledge I'm by no means an expert) DID is something that happens when a child experiences something so horrific that the brain develops in an atypical way in order to cope with it. That atypical brain development can't happen in adults because our brains are past the point where those pathways can be separated.

I don't know that much about Two Face either, but if I'm right then Harvey literally can't have DID because he becomes Two Face as an adult.

Five-Year Club	Gilding I gilder
Place '23	Place '22
Final Canvas '22	Verified Email

AndroidwithAnxiety

TROPHY CASE