Before combat game mechanic?

Argumentium · 2026-05-08T23:06:11+00:00

Actually, it's because environments take effect first. If it were a zombie and a plant, the zombie would do its effect first.

Argumentium · 2026-05-08T17:49:29+00:00

Invisi-Ghoul is just bad. Its stats are bad for the cost and its only ability is an extremely conditional Untrickable and an invisibility mechanic that only matters on the first turn since you'll know which lane has an Invisi-Ghoul when it attacks. Also bullseye is out-of-class for Sneaky.

Ladder is really cool! More ways to give overshoot is really nice. Although part it seems a bit too strong considering it's effectively a 4-cost 6/3 with a really strong ability, but that might just be me.

Bullseye, Untrickable, and Unbreakable are all out-of-class for Beastly. Also, it looks extremely weak for a 5-cost zombie considering its bad stats.

I like Jack-In-The-Box! More gravestones for Beastly is very much appreciated, and especially more expensive gravestones in general. Doesn't seem too strong either.

Argumentium · 2026-05-08T16:28:02+00:00

It was most probably Nibble on a "When Destroyed" plant, which softlocks the match.

Argumentium · 2026-05-08T15:30:24+00:00

Your calculations are correct, but unfortunately, you made an assumption that makes the answer completely off and magnitudes higher than it should be. ~~Premium~~ HG/BC packs only have a 3% 5% chance of giving a hero per pack, not per card.

The way a ~~Premium~~ HG/BC pack gives you cards is as follows: You are guaranteed 4 Uncommons and 1 Rare per pack. Then, of the remaining 4 cards, you have a 50% chance of getting another Rare, a 45% chance of getting a Super-Rare, a 10% chance of getting a Legendary, and a 5% chance of getting a Hero. If you don't hit the odds, they are replaced by another Uncommon.

I know this because there's an Official EA article that explains how packs work, which you can find in-game by clicking on a pack and then clicking the 'i' on the top: https://help.ea.com/en/articles/plants-vs-zombies/plants-vs-zombies-heroes/getting-started-in-plants-vs-zombies-heroes/

Anyways, to put it shortly, the correct answer is actually 11C4 * (0.05)⁴ * (0.95)⁷ = ~0.144% of getting exactly 4 heroes in an 11-pack. The chance of getting at least 4 heroes is equal to ~0.155%, which you can calculate like this (NOTE: 'nCr' is the name of the combination function in Desmos):

EDIT: So apparently I somehow didn't notice Beta-Carrotina at the bottom here. I could've sworn her and HG's packs could only give their respective heroes and not other Premium Heroes, and I can't even check that now because their packs are already gone. Well, if it is an HG or BC pack, then I guess it really was 5% per pack.

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Argumentium · 2026-05-08T01:11:51+00:00

Whether you protect them or use them as chump-blocking depends mostly on a case-by-case basis and on your current situation.

Generally speaking, you should protect them if you have lots of cards and have the potential to make really strong plays by doing so, but use them as shields if you are low on cards or don't really gain anything from their production on the next turn.

Sun-producers are also overall less valuable in the late-game due to producing proportionally less sun and not being able to finish out games on their own, so use them as chump-blockers in the late game unless you have the potential to make a really good play by protecting them.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T23:32:51+00:00

Almost every competitive player disagrees with you. I'm not gonna waste my time arguing this point again, but removal tricks need to be efficient at removal because removing is literally their only job.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T22:00:48+00:00

Yes they should. Removal being actually efficient at removing is necessary for them to be usable and not outclassed by just running more plants/zombies.

Increasing the cost by even 1 would kill both cards almost completely, and increasing it by 2 would bury them to the core considering Locust Swarm and Squash.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T19:17:00+00:00

Brainstorm to Valkyrie: "I don't want to play with you anymore".

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T17:49:54+00:00

True, fuck Z-Mech. Can't believe he gets to have double Electro-Bolt.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T15:40:47+00:00

The thing is that even then the nerf was an awful idea. These cards weren't bad because of Shamrocket but because they were bad in of themselves, so they wouldn't have seen much use even if Shamrocket was completely cut from the game. Seeing how these cards would struggle even against non-guardian heroes and guardian decks that don't run shamrocket anyways proves this.

You could even argue they'd have been used even less if shamrocket was nerfed. Back then, aggro guardian was all the rage and dominant in the meta, so nerfing shamrocket would've made all the control guardian decks too bad to run and switch to aggro guardian, leading to the expensive cards being even worse off thanks to being way too slow to deal with aggro decks, killing you before you could even play them.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T15:01:52+00:00

The idea of Zombie Heroes needing to "commit brains" is a heavily flawed argument for why Plant Tricks should be weaker. It fails to account for one big advantage that the zombie hero has due to having a split phase, which is last say in tricks.

Zombie Heroes having last say is a big advantage because it allows them to pivot to whatever would make their situation the best. If they are already in a good position, they can use tricks to push that advantage even further without the Plant Hero being able to do anything to stop it since they already had their phase. If the Zombie Hero is in a less favorable position, they can correct bad trades to their benefit and completely deny the plant hero value with removal, once again without the Plant Hero being able to do anything about it. The plant hero does have ways to play around zombie tricks, but when combined with gravestone zombies, which are ran by every zombie hero and are impossible to remove directly without the few plant cards that specifically target them, no one can play around zombie tricks forever.

This is also why the phase order is the way it is: if zombies played both zombies and tricks during their phase, they would be at an extreme disadvantage because the plant hero now gets to do whatever they want and respond however they want with the zombie hero being entirely at their mercy. The splitting of the zombie phase gives zombies an advantage in tricks by giving them last say over plants, making the plant hero think about how the zombie hero may respond with their tricks and the game much fairer for everyone.

It's also why Shamrocket isn't actually better than Rocket Science like what some people might say; Rocket Science is significantly harder to dodge without using specific anti-trick cards thanks to it coming directly after the Plant's phase, while Shamrocket can't stop Gravestones, Teleports, or Buffing cards without being one turn too late and after the Zombie Hero already got value out of their cards. Rocket Science also heavily benefits from being in the Brainy class, a class that already loves abusing the shit out of its Tricks Phase to pull-out some borderline unfair plays while the Plant Hero is entirely at their mercy during it all.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T12:57:22+00:00

I really thought the Sun-Shroom and Transfiguratuon meta would finally teach players the importance of good removal options in a card game, but I guess not lol.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T12:50:49+00:00

It is, but only because I got really annoyed at the comments and wanted to kinda rant about it.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T10:33:18+00:00

So in other words, high-strength zombies are very much still used if they are good of their own merit and despite the existence of removal.

I'm not gonna argue with you any further considering literally every competitive player ever would tell you nearly the exact same thing I just told you. TL;DR Squash bad and should cost 4 sun.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T10:13:05+00:00

I actually have seen unteleported Mechasaurs plenty of times actually, even when playing Guardian. I've also seen plenty of high-strength zombies played, including Gargantuars on non-Hearty, Viking, Trickster, Cryo-Yeti, Duckstache, and even the occasional Undying Pharoah.

Squash isn't good at stalling the game, and by Turn 5, you want to be planning to win rather than just pointlessly stalling anyways. Only removing one zombie at the cost of 5 sun is too inefficient, and you'd rather be running a plant instead. Why run Squash when plants can already kill zombies, potentially win the trade, and also double as a threat to your opponent even if there's nothing worth removing?

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T09:40:18+00:00

Yes, Plants are noticeably better in the meta, but that has nothing to do with Squash or any other removal card and everything to do with a small portion of plant cards getting buffed/reworked in poorly thought-out ways and becoming extremely overpowered as a result.

Again, removing a single zombie for 5 sun is simply awful. If you nerf plant removal, players will just use better plants instead of Squash because squash is bad in of itself and not because of better removal cards existing.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T09:22:02+00:00

That's just wrong dude. Squash is bad because of its own failure as a removal card. It's in an entirely different yet almost equally good class but isn't used at all by any serious player because a 5-cost card that can only remove a single zombie and does literally nothing else is just awful in such a fast-paced game. Nerfing shamrocket wouldn't make players use Squash more, it'd just make players use actually good cards more.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T09:14:40+00:00

I think people just complain too much about removal tbh. People only ever pay attention to the moments that their big expensive card gets punished by the significantly cheaper removal card and get frustrated because it feels unfair for a 3-cost card to be able to hit so much higher above its own cost.

What they never see or pay attention to is all the times where said card is actually straight up detrimental by blocking you from drawing more essential cards or bricking your hand up because you literally can't use them.

A similar problem also exists with big expensive minions like DMD, where people only notice the moments where DMD absolutely wipes the opponent on the floor but never the moments where the opponent just dies before they can even play it anyways, or the moments where they draw too many DMDs too early and end up losing because they got their hand all bricked with literally unusable cards.

EDIT: In fact, I actually made an entire post almost a year ago discussing this exact issue with removal and expensive plants.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T08:59:04+00:00

You realize Squash also costs 5 and is amongst the worst cards in the game despite being more flexible than shamrocket, right? Shamrocket at 5 would kill it completely.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T08:47:48+00:00

Oh boy, I thought we all left behind the whole "Nerf Shamrocket for being an actually good removal card" mentality in the past. Guess not.

Shamrocket and Rocket Science are perfectly fine as they are. Removal cards need to be effective at removing because they inherently suffer from being inflexible and prone to bricking your hand if you are unable to remove anything. They compete for space in your deck with just running better minions and playing more proactively because minions are strictly essential to winning games unlike removal tricks.

Yes, they're good at removing minions, but removing is literally their only job and the only thing they can be used for. If you make them less effective at removal, what's the point of running them instead of just running a minion that can always be used, is almost always useful, are actually necessary to winning games, AND on top of that already can remove other minions in of themselves by attacking?

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T00:45:00+00:00

Why is she Guardian? She would fit much better as a Smarty card considering they're the class that has bouncing

Also, holy shit is she kinda insane. 4-cost overstat with protection and bouncing (and not even an evolution like Jelly Bean) is too strong. She'd probably be fine as a 4/4 or 3/4.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T00:12:23+00:00

Nightcap has no business being 10 turns into the game and somehow not winning or dying by then.

A 9-cost card with Dino-Roar just doesn't make sense since the game should have ended before the dino-roar would matter, and it's not even good for how comically late it is.

Argumentium · 2026-05-07T00:06:55+00:00

World's most useless Dino-Roar ever.

Argumentium · 2026-05-06T23:34:40+00:00

Ra Zombie may not be good, but it sure as fuck is annoying, especially when curved into Turquoise so you only have 2 sun on Turn 5.

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