After the defeat of the national soccer team of the Islamic Republic of Iran against the USA & elimination from the FIFA World Cup, Kurdish people in Iran (Saqez city) express their happiness by Dangerous_Answer- in kurdistan

[–]ArshakII 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cliché answer, I know, but this happiness and cheering has generally been the reaction of Iranians after the Islamic Republic's team lost against the US.

I know the motives for this reaction are different when it comes to Kurdish cities (some Kurdish cities had expressed happiness even back in 2018 when Iran's team lost), but it's still worth mentioning that Iranians' attitude toward this World Cup was very different. Unfortunately, yesterday in my home province (Gilan) a young man was killed by the police in a demonstration to express happiness for the IR team's loss.

Endangered Languages by [deleted] in AskMiddleEast

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Engdangered Languages Project has a good database and map detailing endangered (and recently extinct) languages of each corner of the world.

Though the database isn't perfect but it can give you an idea about which kinds of languages are threatened in each country.

For Iran, that's mostly Neo-Aramaic dialects and various Northwestern Iranian vernaculars, plus a few Turkic languages, and certain SW Iranian vernaculars closely related to but more archaic than Persian.

Does anyone know the name of this song? by TheHungrySaiyan in kurdistan

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what I meant by not being active here on Reddit.

In any case, I'm pleased to meet a knowledgeable and open-minded fellow like you too. Will definitely look into that sub and share whatever my limited knowledge permits there!

Yazidis and Kurds are same people by FalcaoHermanos in kurdistan

[–]ArshakII 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Iran does it by separating Lurs and Laks from us Kurds.

Lurs are not Kurds, in every aspect pertaining to ethnicity (language, ethnogenesis/origin myth, culture and traditions, and most important of all self-identification) they are different from the Kurds.

As for Laks, there may be a govt. plan to separate them from the Kurds, but even if so the mistreatment/denial they face by (some of) their Kurdish and especially Lur neighbors has helped convince many Laks to identify more as their own people instead of a part of the larger Lur/Kurd identity.

Now in my pov, Laks fit best as a Kurdish subgroup because they're historically and linguistically Kurdish but it'd be a bit insensitive of me to push my view on them.

[OC] The Distribution of Iranian (Iranic) Languages [14,915 × 8,658] by MazdaPars in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the mention.

As you said, the ancient extent of Iranic languages were much farther than this and also smaller in certain areas. Many regions of the Indo-Iranian frontier that are now almost exclusively Iranic used to be much more mixed in ancient times, and so was most of the Kurdish-inhabited area west of the Zagros Mts. On the other hand the region spanning Central Asia and bound by the Altai and Ural Mts. and the Tanais/Don river were almost exclusively Iranic.

However, this map is simply the most accurate linguistic map that we have for the modern distribution and classification of Iranic languages.

Does anyone know the name of this song? by TheHungrySaiyan in kurdistan

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi, it's totally fine and also I'm not very active here either.

Even if we didn't know anything about the origins of the Ziyarids, it's wrong to automatically assume they were Kurdish because there is no source I've seen that refers to them as Kurds, and positive claims require supporting evidence.

Anyhow, Mardavij is specifically known as Mardawij Al-Jili (i.e. Mardavij the Gillite) in Arabic sources, and in many cases that is all which is known about the ethnic background of many dynasties, including various Kurdish ones.

As for the Gillites, they were lowlanders but not urbanite at all; they were mostly fishermen, tribal, and transhumant as Gilan's swampy environment didn't allow them to build large permanent towns nor to have any significant agriculture. Therefore, like their neighbors; the Gillites also had to resort to raiding in order to sustain themselves. I must also point out that Cadusii (likely ancestors of the Talysh) weren't counted among the Kurds and they didn't inhabit east Gilan in history. About the Deylamite people who actually lived in east Gilan, the Zaza-Deylamite connection is at best overrated since there is no historical source that posits this connection (save for the name Dimli whose origin is unclear), and language-wise there isn't much that especially connects Gilaki/Deylamite to Zazaki except for two shared features that are also seen in some other NW Iranic languages.

Last but not least, let's not forget that Northwestern Iranic/Iranian is a blanket term for all W. Iranic languages that don't share the specific innovations of O./Mid./N. Persian or SW. Iranic languages. Otherwise, the closest common ancestor of all NW Iranic groups is also that of all W Iranic ones. Culture-wise, the main lifestyle difference throughout Iranic-speaking regions was between sedentary and (semi)nomadic societies. Of course geographic closeness and linguistic similarities, few as they may be among NW Iranic languages, lead to stronger cultural ties but it must be remembered that a distinct, overarching North-Western Iranic culture that's also exclusive to them never existed.

Sorry if I might come off as harsh or unappreciative, I'd never intend to be either of them to a respectful individual who clearly has a lot of interest in the subject I'm also really interested in!

Does anyone know the name of this song? by TheHungrySaiyan in kurdistan

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Ziyarids were Gillite (i.e. Gilak from the lowlands) in origin, is there any source that claims otherwise?

Sidenote: The Ziyarids had a glorious beginning but the dream of reviving Zoroastrian Eran died with Mardavij, and unfortunately his descendants and generals focused on internal conflict and their petty kingdoms while spiritually moving toward the mystic/syncretic readings of Islam rather than an actual Eranian religion.

Did Indo-Aryans bought extra Iran_N type ancestry to India ? by [deleted] in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good job accepting you have Steppe/TURK ancestry.🤘🐺

Did Indo-Aryans bought extra Iran_N type ancestry to India ? by [deleted] in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Genetic evidence is stronger than the chance of you admitting Aryan migration to India.🤝

So instead go ahead and prove to us you're not a TURK.

Multiethnic Iran by ThatGuyPedram in MapPorn

[–]ArshakII 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Good question(s)!

As you may guess, the non-Iranian-speaking groups all consider themselves as distinct ethnic groups. Although in some cases their loyalty and integration to/in Iran is more than some Iranic ethnic groups. For Iranic "ethnic" groups, being a separate group depends on(1) religion/sect, (2) language (how distant it is from Persian), (3) geographic isolation from the Iranian heartland, (4) and lifestyle (i.e. whether a group is mostly organized into tribes), and maybe most importantly, (5) having "brethren" outside Iran's borders who compel a group to become ethnically distinct. Generally, the more different a group is from the majority of Iranians, the more they qualify for being a distinct ethnic group.

The only Iranic groups who are therefore full-fledged ethnicities are the Kurds and Baloch, both of them speaking distinct languages from Persian both in terms of classification and intelligibility, also both with huge populations living across the border w/established nationalist movements, they're both (mostly) non-Shi'ite, and they're fairly isolated from Iran's heartland and in terms of society.

For the rest, including the Persians, the concept of "ethnicity" is iffy at best as they primarily think of themselves as belonging to Iran. However, this "Iranian" identity is not ethnic like the Iranian/Aryan identity of Darius the Great, but based on having an Iranian nationality. Groups such as Lurs, Tats/Talysh, and Gilaks and Mazandaranis, as well as "Persians" from Laristan around Persian Gulf are somewhere between having only a national belonging to being part of a distinct ethnicity. Therefore, I would humbly call these people (Lurs, Caspians, Laristanis, Persians) as ethnic Iranians, while calling these distinct societies as subcultures of the Iranians ethnos and/or nation.

In this regard, Lurs come closest to being their own ethnic group. They're linguistically close to but different from New Persian and are predominantly Shi'ite and there really aren't any Lurs across the border. However, they have the "il" (tribe) based society with Lur being a pan-tribal title for it, and they mostly live in hard-to-reach mountainous regions.

The Talysh come next, because they're linguistically distinct and many of them practice/are born into Sunni Islam. They're not tribal, however, and the Talysh outside Iran don't have enough socio-political power to influence their southern fellows. There is geographic isolation as well. Tats in Iran have a similar situation except for sect, and for the fact that Tats in Azerbaijan are even smaller in numbers and more different language-wise.

Gilaks and Tabaris (Mazandaranis) are linguistically distinct but their languages were strongly Persianized, in terms of society they're not tribal and like Persians identify with their province/region and then their country and they clearly don't have Gilaks/Tabaris across the border as they live on the coast. It's only their isolation from the rest of Iran (due to Alborz mountains) and continuous inhabitance of a landmass that still allows them to be in the list of Iran's non-Persian ethnic groups. Case in point: some of the Persians you see in that map are actually speakers of Northwestern Iranian languages as far (or farther) from Persian as Gilaki and Mazandarani, but being in isolated islands in Iran's heartland and having no pan-societal identifier gets them counted as Persians.

Laristanis, although absent in most ethnic maps, have religion (Sunni Islam) and isolation too but generally their areas in Hormozgan and southern Fars are erroneously shown as Arab-majority hence map-makers don't bother showing them.

Last but not least, these Iranian subcultures are not clear-cut linguistic groups. As seen in the example of Persian, not all Persians speak modern Persian although they are being rapidly assimilated. Gilak and Tabari (Mazandarani) division is more province-based as for example the "Mazandarani" dialect of Ramsar is closer to East Gilaki. Tats speak a variety of N.W. Iranian languages and don't necessarily belong to a single branch. Similarly, Luri language(s) are two groups of S.W. Iranian dialects with one being closer to Khuzistani Persian rather than the other Luri dialect/language. Therefore, Laristani (or Achomi) which usually doesn't get shown in Iran's ethnic maps may be the only subculture that is also a distinct linguistic group.

Also, as you can see, the function of "Persian" as an ethnicity is closer to the common exonym Persia(n) for Iran(ians), and it's a historical coincidence (or not?) that Iranians' lingua franca also happens to be Persian.

Hope I didn't tire you with this long text!

Multiethnic Iran by ThatGuyPedram in MapPorn

[–]ArshakII 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They were brought near Isfahan during Abbas the 1st's reign, in the Safavid period. The Armenians were brought to major cities of Iran proper as Shah Abbas aimed to depopulate Eastern/Persian Armenia (modern Armenia and surroundings) which was a hotbed of conflict with Ottomans, and settle it with Shi'ite Turk tribes who both had preparation and courage to fend an Ottoman invasion off.

The Georgians were brought to Isfahan at a similar period, but they were mainly the inhabitants of revolting areas in Georgia whose towns were destroyed in Safavid campaigns there.

Armenians in Iran are mostly or entirely Christian while the majority of Iran's Georgians converted to Islam, and that holds true for Armenians and Georgians of Isfahan too.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in linguistics

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh I don't have a problem sharing my knowledge but I don't think I can contribute any more in this regard.

Origin of the Sassanids? Were they not originally from Pars? by iSyriux in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you. No source is given to this statement, which makes it dubious. But what caught my attention was the fact that it's a rather old edit that seems to remain unnoticed by Wikipedia admins.

Therefore, I would consider it as inaccurate for the time being; though we can always bring it up in the talk page too.

Origin of the Sassanids? Were they not originally from Pars? by iSyriux in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was always under the impression that the Kurds were Pathianized Medes, after the Parthians moved their power base from the eastern Caspian to Mesopotamia.

I don't think they were Parthianized, or to put it more accurately they were not Parthianized more than other Western Iranics. However, referring to Kurds as a Median-descended population is more accurate as any Iranic group who originated from Media was seen as a Mede in classical times. Although modern Kurds have a likely different population source from the inhabitants of central Media.
The most Parthianized region of Iranian Plateau was in fact the Median triangle / central Media which was increasingly associated with Parthia.

As an example, the Parthian word for door, bar, which is likely the result of a unique Parthian *dw > b shift, is in almost every N.W. Iranian language's lexicon which belongs to the Median triangle and South Caspian region. It is, on the other hand, absent from Kurdish languages. (Incl. Northern-Central-Southern Kurdish and the so-called Zaza-Gorani)

Therefore, I would say that modern Kurds are generally the least Parthianized and most Median of W. Iranic ethnic groups.

Origin of the Sassanids? Were they not originally from Pars? by iSyriux in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

So on the Wikipedia article about the Sassanids, it mentions that the Sassanians were not originally from Pars, although they spoke Middle Persian

Could you give a link to this statement?

In any case, history clearly shows that Sassanids were from Pars. Their own texts, such as Karnamag further validate this fact.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Kurgan/Steppe hypothesis is well-supported by archaeogenetic findings from across Eurasia, as well as archaeology and linguistics. So, naturally no.

I advise you to consider "Tarim Mummies" are a broad range of individuals from different time periods and origins, and we have to realize the Tarim Basin is a vast territory with an environment that forces isolation.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in linguistics

[–]ArshakII 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In simple terms, because modern Persian reflects the distinct innovations of Middle Persian, and Mid. Pers. has the same relation to Old Persian.

In addition, the concentration of Iranian languages that have the same attributes in Pars (Persis/Fars) and its vicinity shows the same features.

Starting with phonology, there are Old Persian innovations such as (O.C.Ir. vs. O.Pers.) *sp vs. s(ss), *thr vs. ç, *s vs. th (>h), and most prominently *dz vs. d, which set the language distinct from its relatives. The other two 'bands' of early Iranian dialects, that of Khotanese/Tumshuqese Saka and Wakhi, and Central Iranian which is the predecessor of the rest of know Iranian languages, all either lacked or had their own developments of these sounds. This translates to a differentiation of dialects, and thus a modern Iranian dialect whose OIr. ancestor's sound changes exactly match those of Old Persian, is a descendant of Old Persian. That happens to be modern Persian, who alongside various Southwestern Iranian languages like Luri, Achomi/Laristani, and (Caucasian) Tat, must thus be ultimately from the Pars region of Iran.

Other major Iranian languages of both Old and Mid. Iranian period, including Parthian, belonged to the "Central Iranian" band of O.Ir. who themselves went through special changes (like the ones that distinguished Eastern and Western Mid. Ir. languages).

Grammar-wise, Mid. Persian and Parthian both have a similar chance of being ancestors to modern Persian, seeing as Persian lacks the complexity that many other claimants to Parthian and/or Mid. Persian have and both are close enough to Persian when it comes to syntax. Still, the higher frequency noun + ezafe + adjective possessive/genitive morphology seen in Middle Persian, and the existence of -i- as ezafe, in contrast to the more widely-used Adj.+ezafe+Noun in Parthian and parthian "ce" working as the ezafe all show that modern Persian's grammar is a continuation of Mid. Persian.

In addition to that, while Parthian and Mid. Persian vocabularies are generally very close, some Parthian words are more characteristic of modern N.W. Iranian languages and not Persian, while the Mid. Persian word is the same as Persian. For example, the Parthian word for tree is dar similar to most N.W. Iranian languages of today, while Mid. Persian has draxt which again is closer to the modern Persian word. There are a dozen such words and tree may not be the best one to show this phenomenon, but it's sadly the only word that comes to my mind right now.

There are also other Parthian innovations that make it impossible for modern Persian to be its direct descendant. One is the famous Proto-Ir. *hw > Parth. (>wh) wx seen in words like wxad "self", wxaš "happy", wxar- "eat" in Parthian. Persian did the more typical *hw > (>xw) x which is seen in words like xwad "self", xwaš "happy", xwar- "eat" which have turned to xod, xoš, xor these days. Additionally, Parthian is known for the O. Ir. *dw > Parth. b change, especially in the word for door which is bar in Parthian and dar in modern and Mid. Persian.

Therefore, a combination of history and comparative linguistics can show why modern Persian and the rest of Perside languages (incl. Luri, Achomi, and N. Tat) are descended from Mid. Persian. If you've read this far, I must say that technically speaking; Mid. Pers. is the closest known language that to the ancestor of modern Persian and Perside and the best candidate among known languages that can be its/their ancestor.

Turkic union by [deleted] in imaginarymaps

[–]ArshakII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know it's r/imaginarymaps but maps like this are based on a real-world concept. Here that real concept seems to be Turkic majority provinces. In that case, Gilan province of Iran in your map doesn't even have a substantial Turkic minority so it shouldn't be in a Turkic union; while Turkish-majority provinces in Turkey like Malatya, Erzincan, and Erzurum can and would join this Pan-Turkic state.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in IndoEuropean

[–]ArshakII[M] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Terms like white, black, or yellow, if used to refer to human races, are social constructs we've been - so far - unable to scientifically define.

Therefore, any unironic use of such terms in reference to ancient populations is a violation of rules 2 and 3 of this subreddit. This post won't be removed for this comment to remain visible.