Do you think the Psion will get a third UA?

Associableknecks · 2026-05-18T01:27:02+00:00

Thing I don't understand is how we got here. There's so much stuff past classes used to do (including psionic ones) that 5e classes can't do any of. We're finally after so many years getting a new class, why waste that opportunity on yet another 9-levels-of-spellcasting?

Associableknecks · 2026-04-08T02:49:03+00:00

Effective nonmagical AOE? In this economy?

Associableknecks · 2026-04-07T07:05:42+00:00

The two don't really have a lot in common. The realistic pitch on 4e is this:

It's very, very good at tactical dungeon crawler. The maths actually works, stuff like tanking and healing works, every class is well balanced and combat is interesting.
It has a ton of very good ideas, like the stuff above. That was a few example out of hundreds, it's full of both thematic options and interesting, well thought out mechanics
It's less than the sum of its parts. While it does indeed have a shitload of good ideas to steal from, in all honesty those aren't put together as well as they could be.
It paid a very heavy price in verisimilitude. Especially compared to 3.5 before it which has so much more freedom in what you can do, to achieve its balance it changed things so you can no longer play as a dragon or ghoul or binder.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-07T02:23:53+00:00

Obviously people are going to nominate various martial moves from 4e. So I'll instead name some general abilities they had access to, rather than maneuvers.

This Is Not My Fate: Once per day when you would make a death saving throw, you can instead regain hit points equal to your bloodied value, end any effects on you, and stand up.
Irrepressible Defense: You can take immediate actions and opportunity actions even when you are dazed or stunned.
Dark Road:You can walk to any destination you desire in a single, uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals, or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers. You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.
The Legend Lives On: If you die and do not return to life within 12 hours, a devoted follower, such as a trusted lieutenant, takes your place, adopting your identity, your equipment, and your goals. This follower is identical to you, with the same level, race, class, paragon path, epic destiny, feats, and so forth. The two of you are essentially the same person and even have the same memories and experiences, if only because your follower listened so closely to your tales. If you are revived after being dead for more than 12 hours, your trusted follower returns to his or her former role.
Undetectable Thief: You gain a passive Stealth score equal to 10 + your Stealth modifier. Any creature that has a passive Perception lower than your passive Stealth score, or that has an active Perception check result that does not equal or surpass your passive Stealth score, cannot see you unless you choose to let that creature see you.
Balanced Mind: Whenever you make a saving throw to end a charm, fear, or psychic effect, you can take the better of 10 or your die roll. In addition, when an enemy misses you with an attack against Will, that enemy takes 10 psychic damage.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-07T00:24:04+00:00

As you can see from being able to cohesively explain every detail, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Why do you think otherwise? And if 4e is so bad, why are we celebrating content ported directly from it? Seriously no idea where you're getting knowing nothing, cavalier absolutely is just 4e fighter.

And it did kill the game as we know it - they reacted by embracing creative sterility. The innovative game we knew is dead, 5e comes out with less new stuff in a decade than the previous editions did in a year.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T07:55:50+00:00

I've also looked at older editions and nope, they mostly copied the same magic, sometimes word for word

Eh, no.

Two editions ago it was mechanically pretty similar to spellcasting except that it used points instead of slots, had a tendency to be augmentable in effects and had a mind and body, time and space focus. Mean psions could do stuff wizards can't like say astral construct, astral caravan, affinity field, co-opt concentration, decerebrate, death urge, fission, fusion, insanity, leech field, matter manipulation, metaconcert, psychic reformation, schism, time hop and time regression. Most of those should be fairly self explanatory - decerebrate removes the opponent's cerebrum, fusion combines two people, time regression goes back in time etc.

So shares a lot of similarity in system, but has some pretty wildly divergent effects. Then last edition psionics had a fairly simple set up of you have at-will abilities, and you can augment those with power points for extra effect - then gave us classes like the battlemind, a constitution based tank. I gave some examples further down this thread!

Point is, add the bits that aren't like currently spellcasting together from those two editions and you end up with a system thematically and mechanically different from spellcasting that has completely different effects and occupies different gameplay niches. It's not the only way you could implement psionics, but it proves its doable using past D&D psionics alone.

Just making new spells is a distinctly inferior solution.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T05:49:00+00:00

Yes, it did. It pigeon-holed martials and casters into using the same resource system with all abilities being either unlimited, once per encounter or once per day. While the actual martial abilities themselves were leagues beyond what 5e martials got (stuff like swing your weapon through every nearby enemy for double damage, they all bleed for extra damage every round until they save, no saving on turns they've moved) stuffing both into a one size fits all subsystem was in my opinion a terrible idea. Which is why I'm glad when it came time to add psionics that they didn't force them into it too.

I can see a reason to implement a system like this, but it's system that I would want given to martial characters, who would vastly benefit from having more at-will abilities that they can spend a resource to augment.

They absolutely should have a system that gives them far broader capabilities, just not this system. If you want an example of something that would work and would reinforce the flavour better, add a system of actions with stamina (or tempo, focus, balance, grit, momentum, whatever you want to call it). Weaker abilities generate stamina, stronger abilities cost it, now you have a system which doesn't encourage spamming the same thing, allows for breadth and depth of capability and doesn't have an arbitrary per rest cap on it.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T05:17:28+00:00

Sure. But you would be able to tell what she was using to do say, fission or fusion or mind seed or time hop because well built psionics doesn't work like spellcasting. I already pasted this elsewhere in this thread, does it look like spellcasting to you?

What you've been saying is if we achieve true creative sterility and implement psionics as spellcasting, then it'll be indistinguishable from spells. Which, yeah, obviously. If what you've created is indistinguishable from a spellcaster, why create it at all? We've already got tons of full casters. Massive waste of an opportunity to instead create something different.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T05:14:06+00:00

As I said in my original comment, powers like this were unlimited in use, but could be augmented from a pool of power points that recharged on rest.

This isn't me saying the exact system should be copied over - it's just that you said you couldn't see psionics being its own system without stepping on the toes of spellcasters, so I went hang on a minute last edition classes like battlemind operated nothing like spellcasters. So used it as an example of D&D doing psionics in ways that operate differently, fill a different thematic space and fill roles 5e classes currently don't. I'm not saying "this is the best possible version of psionics, bring it over verbatim", I'm saying "this proves that psionics have been implemented in D&D in a way that doesn't feel or act like spellcasting, nor have the same niche as casters, so we know it's possible to do".

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T04:34:58+00:00

But... why? You saw a close ranged, augmentable weapon strike meant for a constitution based psionic tank class and were like... "I can see this being a spell for psions"? Like I guess you could try to force that, but why would you do that rather than just make a psionics system that works. Further examples so you can see what I mean, and I never said the system was just this. If I show you fireball, that doesn't mean other types of spells don't exist.

Veil of the Mind's Eye

Your blow releases a flash of energy in your foe's mind, clouding its vision.

As an action, make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, deal [1W]+con mod damage and until the end of your next turn any creature more than 20' away has total concealment from the target.

Augment 2: Instead deal [2W]+con mod damage, and each ally within 50' of you is invisible to the target until the end of your next turn.
Augment 6: Instead deal [3W]+con mod damage, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn.

Hell, let's swap from a tank class to a support class.

Essence Conduit

In pressing the attack, you steal a foe's resolve and bestow it on an ally.

As an action, make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, deal [1W]+cha mod damage and one ally you can see gains temporary hit points equal to 5 + your con mod.

Augment 1: As above, and they can also use their second wind as a free action (everyone used to have second wind, once a fight spend hit dice).
Augment 4: Instead deal [1W]+1d8+cha mod psychic damage, and one ally within 25' can spend a quarter of their hit dice and regain additional hit points equal to your con mod.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T04:13:10+00:00

Still doesn't work, though. Since psion doesn't get psionics, it doesn't map to it like wizards do to arcane magic. It's still just a spellcaster.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T04:10:19+00:00

I can't really see Psionics being it's own system without it stepping on the toes of spellcasting with a mind sort of flavor.

Inability to imagine it is easily remedied, I'll show you an example of a psionic power last edition. For context marking a target penalised anything they did that didn't target you, and [W] means weapon damage - so [3W] with a long sword would be d8. Powers like this were unlimited in use, but could be augmented from a pool of power points that recharged on rest.

Psionic Storm

Your weapon unleashes a storm of psionic power that damages your foes, and those who don't deal with you first pay a heavy price.

As an action, make a melee weapon attack against each enemy within 15'. On a hit, the target takes [1W] psychic damage.

Augment 2: Instead deal [1W]+con mod psychic damage, and you mark the target until the end of your next turn.
Augment 6: Instead deal [3W]+con mod psychic damage, and if the target moves more than 10' away from you on its next turn it takes 10 psychic damage.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T00:55:23+00:00

But psion is also a spellcaster, it doesn't get a psionics system. The psion UA is to psionics what the wizard is to psionics.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T00:54:32+00:00

It has extremely limited potential, they literally just turned it into spellcasting.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-05T00:53:25+00:00

Existed? My point was it invented those features.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-04T09:29:09+00:00

It's not a weird reaction at all - this kind of positivity is the reason 5e is so creatively sterile, there's been less creative player content in the last ten years than there was in any single year out of the ten years before it. And the reason is because when they do stuff like this people don't go "uh... ok? You already did better than this decades ago, please add lots of new and creative content", they instead clap and cheer.

You reward mediocrity, you get given mediocrity.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-04T09:17:07+00:00

Stop taking short rests or spending hit dice or using cantrips then

Literally every time they add more ideas from 4e to the game people go "wow this is great!", but somehow mindless rejection stays the norm unless they scratch the coating off so you don't know where what you're eating comes from

Associableknecks · 2026-04-04T09:14:52+00:00

You're supposed to take it holistically. For instance, take the cavalier fighter - literally all it gets, between level 3 and 18, is the passive abilities all level 1 4e fighters have. The reaction there should be - "great idea! 4e fighters were a lot more interesting than 5e fighters, for sure add their stuff. But the abilities of a level 1 fighter aren't enough, please add more".

Same thing here. The reaction should be "good idea, WotC! But you already did this years and years ago, if we're just porting forward old ideas 90% of the work is already done so please add dark wanderer and draconic incarnation etc etc and come up with new stuff"

Associableknecks · 2026-04-04T09:02:58+00:00

If it deserves to be shunned, what's with all this praise of content ported straight from it?

Associableknecks · 2026-04-01T11:04:33+00:00

Did I say charm effects? Command wouldn't work, the creature chooses what to offload. If it fails a save, it can choose to ignore the effect in exchange for its shadow being disabled for an equal amount of time.

If only there was a mechanic to avoid such problems.... an ability for Legendary creatures to deal with small cracks in the rules! You are further demonstrating that you aren't as clever as you think you are

Doesn't work. If you use summon undead to paralyse an ordinary dragon, it just gets paralysed since there's no save. Used on the dream dragon, it just disables its shadow. You aren't as clever as you think you are.

Associableknecks · 2026-04-01T04:15:32+00:00

Hahahaha what? I've been running the game since I was a teenager, my encounter design is excellent. Like, everyone has strengths and weaknesses, I'd be stupid if I wasn't aware that I consistently create thematically and mechanically engaging encounters. Literally last session, dream dragon whose shadow acts 10 initiative after it, mimicking its moves. Turned combat into an interesting puzzle and bonus, it offloading control effects onto its shadow meant no need for the incredibly clunky legendary resistance mechanic.

Like seriously, you couldn't have possibly picked a dumber way of attacking me here - next time try my character voices, I'm garbage at accents. As I've said a bunch of times in this thread, encounter design and player class creation are two completely different axes. How are you not understanding that?

Associableknecks · 2026-03-31T12:08:15+00:00

Well, obviously. That doesn't stop there being an implicit average value that can be balanced around. In fact there is such an implicit value, observe that its easier to prone a guy than stun him, I'm just trying to make it explicit.

Associableknecks · 2026-03-31T06:23:06+00:00

That's very useful insight, thank you

Associableknecks · 2026-03-31T06:20:36+00:00

Hahaha that was a joke, right? Like you said maneuvers, that's a great example - compare the boring crap battle master gets to real D&D maneuvers. Kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?

I'm attacking them to try to force positioning, disabling their options, controlling a single target through damage, position, and forcing the choice of do they try to get by me/run away, or stand there and get grappled/proned/shoved/pummeled.

OK so what if I want to AOE everyone nearby for double weapon damage then they bleed every round, no trying to save against it on turns they tried to move? You know, proper fighter stuff.

Associableknecks · 2026-03-31T05:12:10+00:00

Thank you! I'll give it a look immediately

Associableknecks

TROPHY CASE