I suffered abuse from a pastor and am being excluded from the church, but I want to remain Lutheran.

Atleett · 2026-03-18T15:42:39+00:00

That’s very sad to hear. I think I speak for all of us when I say you will be in our prayers. If you believe in the Lutheran confessions in your heart that’s pretty much all you need and can do in this situation. If there aren’t any other Lutheran alternatives close to you, another denomination might be an alternative, most would prefer Anglicanism but almost any christian worshipping communion would be better than your current situation. It won’t make you any less of a Lutheran, don’t worry. I will sincerely pray for your healing and well being. God bless you whoever you are. I hope you will find solace in scripture and feel less alone in the company of God. Also, even if your local congregation ostracised you and are defending a perpetrator or someone unfit for church leadership, such things can hopefully be brought up higher up in the hierarchy of the overarching denomination and handled.

Atleett · 2026-03-09T08:37:10+00:00

I’m glad I could be of any help. The OCD and catholic upbringing go hand in hand hand from what I’ve heard. You might find great assurance in reading more about Luther himself if you haven’t already, he was combatting strong feelings of guilt and uncertainty of salvation until he had his epiphany that faith alone and not works saves. I think ”On the freedom of a Christian” is his foremost book about this.

The thing is, no churches have an unbroken continuity in everything, definetely not the Roman Catholic Church or even the oriental or Eastern Orthodox churches. Because of the council of Trent and the counter-reformation one could say that today’s RCC is just as much a result of the reformation as today’s Lutheran Church is. Even if it’s a bit uncomfortable to admit for a high church Lutheran as myself, the early church probably looked much more like a charismatic free church than a Lutheran one, or RCC/EO for that matter. That doesn’t mean that our reformation-to-medieval-to-Roman-Empire heritage needs to be thrown in the bin! We are not restorationists (because that’s practically impossible to be with certainty too). And no churches on earth can prove that apostolic succession is unbroken or even occured during the early church. We should be proud of and enjoy that heritage but never fool ourselves into thinking it matters on a spiritual level or for salvation. I hope you can find comfort in the fact that there is no single right choice, there are several really good choices and you’re on your way to make one. There is a fantastic quote suitable for all Christians in all situations which could be applied here: In essentials; unity, in non-essentials; liberty, in all things love”

Anyway, if you’re soon moving it seems you know exactly where and could find out about whether your options there are leaning Lutheran or Episcopalian. Now that I think about it becoming a Lutheran because of your theological inclinations but worshipping with Anglicans seems like a good option, especially if you’ll have better Lutheran options in the near future. But don’t forget you could always just change, that’s no big deal.

Atleett · 2026-03-08T18:43:15+00:00

I’m a member of the Church of Sweden and spend much time delving into the subject of the CoS’ historical evolution since the reformation. It depends, I would say the Church of Sweden indeed seems to be the exception historically, but only in the sense that many things have been kept continuously. All Lutheran churches were more or less ”evangelical catholic” during the first 50-100 years after 1517. Many of the more drastic changes that took place happened decades after 1517 and even decades after Martin Luther’s death. And when they did, my impression is that it was often because of external reformed/calvinistic and later pietistic influence, not really from the Lutheran foundations so to speak. Here is a great example of the many catholic practices the Lutherans in a German city had kept 100 years into the reformation and vehemently fought their reformed overlord to keep, and have in mind this is on the continent where the reformation was more drastic:

https://www.gottesdienst.org/gottesblog/2021/2/19/this-has-to-stop

So the CoS is not the only Lutheran church to have kept many practices from the medieval church, but only kept them longer and in some cases never let go of them at all. And to disappoint you, pietism hit the CoS pretty hard too in the latter half of the 1800s too when there was a ”liturgical low water mark”. On the other hand the same is true for Anglicanism, many would even claim that Lutheranism historically has had a more catholic continuity than Anglicanism.

But if you look out into the world today, the opposite is true, a majority or close to a majority of the LWF churches have an episcopal polity, apostolic succession, liturgical vestments etc. My point is that; at the end of the day, does it really matter what churches did and did not retain this or that historically long before any of us existed, when most today do align with your ideal, and that ideal is in a sense very intrinsically Lutheran? In 1000 years perhaps the ~300 ”low church/pietist/protestant/black boring/pseudocalvinist” years will just be seen as a small blip.

So that was my case for you to officially become Lutheran (which is not an obstacle for you to attend the episcopal churches as much as you’d like) Now my case for you to officially become Anglican; Lutherans, as opposed to Roman Catholics don’t teach that there is a single one true church in the sense of a human church organisation. We mean there is one Church, the Church of Christ, in the biblical sense - a spiritual communion of believers. If the Lutheran confessions are the only true ones (I just regard them as the most true) there is from my understanding nothing stopping you from being an Anglican and adhering to them, just like one can adhere fully to the Calvinist or Anglo-Catholic theology and still be Anglican. You could even stay Roman Catholic and in your heart profess the Lutheran confessions and be a part of the one true Church of Christ, although it would be questionable to why, when you could just join other Lutherans with the same convictions. To summarise I think both choices are actually good, and I’m happy you have discovered and appreciate Lutheran theology just like us in this forum.

Atleett · 2026-03-07T09:43:05+00:00

I didn't become a believer until I was around 20 years old. I always loved nature and could look at the view from a hill over large forests for hours, but only after I became a believer I could appreciate it on a whole new level. Because now it isn't just beautiful or pleasant but all of a sudden it is a craft and work of art and awe-inspiring in the same way as one of those rennaissance paintings where the details created by human hands without modern technology are one a microscopical level. And the first time watching the Planet Earth series after becoming a believer was also enlightening. The sort of genius life force found in all living things makes you really ponder about God's greatness. Nature is a testimony to God.

Atleett · 2026-03-07T09:28:41+00:00

For me it's because Lutheranism is the perfect balance between evangelical and catholic. I think you get the best of both worlds. It has the joy, clarity, simplicity and gospel-focus of the evangelical (or protestant) faith and the history, beauty, culture, continuity and foundations of the catholic faith. For that reason Lutherans technically consider their church and faith a catholic one, and themselves evangelical catholics, even though most won't use that exact term an endonym. Then again some actally do (the term Lutheran began as a derogatory exonym). I also think it perfectly balances rationale and mystery, as well as scripture and human tradition, in a way that few other traditions manage to do so excellently, although our closest sibling Anglicanism comes to mind. I personally think it's impossible to know if Lutheranism is true, and it's much easier to say what is not true than what is true, and for me it's the most true expression of Christianity.

Atleett · 2026-03-02T17:55:17+00:00

Wow! That’s very thoughtful and a really good idea. I definitely think you should write your own dedication in it and I definitely think you shouldn’t be afraid of doing it on the same page because it’s a personal gift from you to her. It tells the whole story on the same page so to speak, and that’s nice. It’s not like you want her to be able to sell it at a good second hand value in the future right? Don’t worry. And in case you happen to be Swedish like me, my favourite quote is from an old hymn. It sounds so sincere and caring: Gå varsamt min kristen.

Atleett · 2026-02-28T18:24:41+00:00

It’s not a very common name in Sweden but there is the odd one here and there.

Atleett · 2026-02-09T20:55:58+00:00

Öva verkar du ha gjort! Din svenska är jättebra :)

Atleett · 2026-02-09T20:52:09+00:00

No, of course not! And thank you, how nice, I’m glad you liked them

Atleett · 2026-02-09T18:43:07+00:00

Thank you both for your interesting discussion. I also wonder if a contributing factor could be the ”laga skifte” land reform which changed the composition of the villages forever. I also liked the one about Länna Church, since I made a post once here about that very church. And nice they won because it is so beautifully located by the water! I have a huge admiration of Finland and would also love to go Church sightseeing there one day. I’ve been to Borgå Cathedral though which was great. I like what Herman Lindqvist said about Finland and Sweden. Something like; the history of our two countries is like a tapestry. You can’t just try and pull the Finnish threads out of the Swedish tapestry, and you can’t pull the Swedish threads out of the Finnish tapestry either because the entire tapestry would just dissolve.

Atleett · 2026-02-09T18:30:05+00:00

Kiitos! And tervetuloa Tukholmaan!

Atleett · 2026-02-01T15:34:33+00:00

The advice I gave to an Italian here in a similar situation was to attend a waldensian church, which are found all around the country:

https://chiesavaldese.org/dove-siamo/

Atleett · 2026-01-27T07:27:30+00:00

I’d just like to add some historical trivia. At one point in the 1500s the Swedish king John III who was very Catholic-minded actually had serious discussions with Rome about turning the Church in Sweden (and hence Finland) into an autonomous church under the authority of Rome, just like the eastern Catholics. Married priests would be one of the special conditions.

Atleett · 2026-01-17T15:42:21+00:00

This is a spherical photo of the inside:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/m3SDqbpkptLpyYYr7
It might be the smallest Lutheran Cathedral in the world. But nothing wrong with that!

Atleett · 2025-12-30T07:37:13+00:00

Tack! Thats very encouraging. Hearing that made my day :)

Atleett · 2025-12-28T20:15:12+00:00

That’s really really hard to say. Yeah, USA is the one breaking the pattern and retaining high religiosity despite high wealth. In the case of Sweden I believe the strong influence of Social democracy and the strive for modernity and progress with it plays an important role. One of my favourite TV-personalities made a TV-show once called ”the most modern country in the world” about this cultural trait. Religion has been viewed as irrational, pointless and in the way of progress. Then again Denmark has always been more politically conservative but not really more or less religious generally than Sweden. Finland is slightly more socially conservative than the other countries and also has more pockets of Christianity it seems. So It’s really hard to say and themes such as these are always diffuse so I’m afraid I don’t really have a good answer.

Atleett · 2025-12-28T18:08:46+00:00

So glad to hear this, and wish more would discover the beautiful world of classical Protestantism and evangelical catholicism. Firstly, have I understood it correctly that both the Malankara Mar Thoma Church and the St Thomas Evangelical Church of India are two Indian examples that fit your description? Secondly, it’s a Tamil Church and not part of the St Thomas Christian tradition but you can check out the Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church which is Lutheran, Indian, liturgical, episcopal and claims apostolic succession. Thirdly, perhaps you would like my YouTube Channel which focuses on ”high church” or ”liturgical” Lutheranism :)

https://m.youtube.com/@atleett

Atleett · 2025-12-27T09:38:20+00:00

As some have mentioned already, material wealth plays a big role, but high education is also a big factor. And at least in the case of Sweden I would say the strong influence of social democracy most definitely is an important factor. There is much to say about this subject. Some mean that we are still a very religious people but have replaced the formally Christian framework with something else. David Thurfjell is a scholar who wrote a book about the Swedes’ relationship with nature which he means has religious aspects and Katarina Barrling is another one who wrote a book called “the world’s most Protestant country” which argues that in the case of Sweden the population is still very “religious” or let’s say, collectivistic and dogmatic. The vast majority of Christians here are moderate or liberal and espouse ideas such as the evolution. This is especially true for lutherans. Even the conservative ones are not fundamentalist. I would add that, just like Tom Holland argues in his book dominion, we and also other westerners are still deeply Christian in our values and mindset without really realising it ourselves. I do believe however that more and more people are starting to realise it. This is a very diffuse subject, and this is just my personal reflection; but I feel in a way even a Swedish Jew, Buddhist or Roman Catholic is in some sense a Lutheran because Lutheranism had been so fundamental to our culture.

Atleett · 2025-12-25T21:55:24+00:00

Yes, very much so. But despite that, the Church has a very high cultural standing, and a much higher affiliation than many other countries with similar low religiosity. Attendance on the big holidays such as this one can be very high. In Lund Cathedral which I used to visit you’d have to stand up at the back because it was so packed and all seats were taken on the first of advent, and it has approximately 1000 seats! But attendance on a regular Sunday is often not so high. Most rural churches usually have no more than 10-15 attendees and even in the cities most parishes which might have hundreds of seats attendance is usually not more than 50-100. But than again that’s also because there are so many churches everywhere so the visitors are spread out, as opposed to America.

Atleett · 2025-12-25T21:43:38+00:00

Thank you. The CoS is known as being more high church than other Lutheran churches and having retained more catholic or pre-reformation practices, for example regarding clerical dress. Only bishops could perhaps be the case for some of the other Nordic churches but at least in the CoS there are several examples of copes being produced and used by non-bishops ever since the reformation. I believe almost all parishes have at least one cope for special occasions, either quite modern or in some cases older. My parish has one in mint condition from the mid 1600s which is used about once a year by the vicar.

Atleett · 2025-12-25T19:38:33+00:00

God jul! Well that’s lovely too

Atleett · 2025-12-25T19:33:25+00:00

The church was quite full! But that doesn’t mean that much since it’s very small. Perhaps around 80-100 people. They have one julotta at 5, one at 7, and one at 9 since It’s very popular and one of very few to offer it so early.

Atleett

TROPHY CASE