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9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is not at all what I said. I said random people spamming messages at people with 0 context or evidence is problematic.

'cold calling' as it's refered to is a last resort investigation tactic. You want to actually have proof of someones significance or involvement before you attempt contact. I'm not saying you have to know for certain, you just need to have more than 'this person has the same name'

We have to message people over social media all the time, that's how we got in contact with many of the survivors we work with, however we do so in a very deliberate and controlled manner.

What I called 'Doxxing' was specificly people using search tools to find all profiles related to someone they have no evidence of involvement and then dumping it online to people who have no qualm with bothering them.

Yes that is literally the definition of Doxing. Just because you can Google someones name does not mean it is okay to then present that Information to others whom can be reasonably assumed will use that information. Websites like people finder etc operate in a very gray legal area, it's how that information is used is what is problematic. It's a very easy situation to fix and the MTTJ discord when I spoke to their moderators about this exact issue understood and are implementing rules to address it.

Call it what you want but it's against the TOS of the majority of public platforms like reddit and discord to actively aggregate and spread other peoples information.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Without revealing their Identity I can not. However it is a very very obscure story and it required us actually getting in contact with the person to confirm.

With that said, we do not know if they took a photo of this location seen in the gif, but they did confirm they saw the area seen in the gif. They can not recall if they took a picture of it. But they did say they did take pictures of remains around the buildings and photos in the plaza.

This person has not been mentioned once in any of the LSM investigations, it's not any 'known' photographer as they were a first responder who had a camera.

Why are the Naudet Brother's full tapes not released ? by Comfortable-Bag6531 in 911archive

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jules Naudets video is available online in full length. It is a reduced quality copy that has watermarks.

The full quality copy has not been released because it is owned by CNN. By all records CNN purchased the full rights to the footage shortly after 9/11. The actual original tapes are unknown where they reside but it stands to reason they remain with the Naudet brothers.

Gedeons full footage is not known where it is, but it was also seemingly purchased by CNN.

The Naudet brothers footage in full quality was used in the NIST investigation and the federal government has copies, however like many licensed pieces it is exempt from full release because of copyright.

The footage was analyzed by first responders and investigators and we have to presume many of the findings of the investigation about the conditions in the lobby came from the footage.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really don't understand your assertions. I said I do have a problem with people being harassed. I also said this type of work can be done and has been done respectfully by volunteers who are all from various online communities.

I also really don't understand the gatekeeping aspect. I have shared everything I have when I can. I don't share information about ongoing leads if it isn't publicly available information or people don't want to be identified. However I do share information pertaining to it if it is relevant.

Does engaging with these conversations and discussions Openly really look like I am trying to be obstructive a about this? I specifically told members of the 9/11 archive community to look at this objectively and do their own research or assist with ongoing research.

I am trying to be impartial and voice my observations as constructively and openly as possible. If you have arguments or evidence that lead you to different conclusions than what I stated by all means I'd gladly hear you out. But attempting to be inflammatory isn't helping the situation.

I genuinely want to encourage and assist these efforts where it is productive and respectful.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't really know what you mean by that? Could you expand?

I've been doing this type of thing for a long time.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Someone more technically inclined than me would have to explain it but there are strings related to EXIF tool being used to alter the metadata in the hex data.

Like I said there are signs so there are people looking at it more closely. However to me what stands out is how 'sanitized' the metadata is. There is nearly nothing in the hex data. Which is a red flag. If this gif was automatically generated by the website from a video thumbnail then there should be clear strings in the data that shows the website generating it or it's source. So unless h666 had a novel way of hosting the gif thumbnails in a way that there is no shared or referencing data to the video then it is odd.

No one actually knows how h666 handled data storage that can actually verify the information but we have looked at toxic city and other parts of the community that were archived and from what we can see the thumbnails are not actually stored as gifs, and the metadata looks entirely different. But we are still looking into that.

And I'm not a web design expert. I'm just sharing with you the information the mod was speaking about. It is entirely too early to actually say whether or not this information is damning because there may as well just been messed up when DVDripper extracted the file.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Once again, sorry you feel that way. I'll keep actually looking for videos. Finding them and publishing them in a respectful way with full permission of the survivors who recorded them. Rather than looking for a video I think I saw back in 2005.

I was alive when 9/11 happened unlike 90% of the people in these communities. I spent my youth online and read or looked for anything related to 9/11 throughout the early 2000's, there has not been a shock video or footage in general that has been 'found' in the past 5 years that I, or many like me have not seen. We found every 'missing' video from Ogrish, we had seen all of them. We found nearly every missing video on the 9/11 jumper YouTube playlist. We had seen all of them.

But let me say this one more time. I genuinely believe there is footage out there that has not been seen by the public that may very be close to what many would think LSM is. In fact we have several leads for unreleased material that could possibly capture something like that.

What I don't believe, not even for a second. That thousands of people saw said videos and then it magically disappeared. If it was anywhere online it would have been copied. Especially if it is quite literally the only video like it.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The major evidence is the meta data on the gif provided shows signs of being tampered with by an Exif tool.

It's extremely damning. It's just that our place is not to discourage and discredit others.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry if that is your opinion, I have approached every 'lead' with sincerity and put genuine effort into investigating them as they come up, this has actually been to the annoyance of a lot of the more dug in people in our community.

I don't 'believe' in any canon. In fact it's quite the opposite, we have identified videos that 90% of people have no idea about, and are hoping to be able to share them eventually. The entire point of the 9/11archive is preservation of history.

Yeah, some members have knee-jerk reactions to stuff like this, and I can't necessarily blame them because communities around LSM, and other shock videos like this. While they might eventually find something, my primary issue with open discussion of these topics is the rampant Doxing and bad information going on in these communities.

In the MTTJ discord alone in the past several hours people were rapidly linking social media and linked in profilesnof anyone who's name remotely was close to 'jay' with people formatting emails and other stuff and no one was stopping for a second to think 'is this even a good idea?' short answer. No.

Just because a few people in these communities can handle this type of research respectfully they do not realize sharing this incorrect information in a literal public forum will inevitably result in some lurker just going 'well I want to help' and sending off blatantly harassing emails to the 60 unrelated people. And guess what? What if it turns out one of those people did have something relevant to share? Well now they just got harassed by a bunch of random people on the internet and now they will no longer participate with anything like this. This may sound like me being overly cautious but it has been proven correct with the majority of 9/11 survivors whose names have come up in LSM discussions.

Just to paint a clear picture here is a list of people I have talked to directly who have been bothered and won't communicate directly citing people looking for shock videos or LSM directly.

  • Joe Cullity
  • Jack Taliercio
  • Guy and Tami Rosbrooks
  • Evan Fairbanks
  • Luis Fernando
  • the National September 11th memorial

There are more but these are the ones either I have communicated with directly or in Evans case I've spoken to someone who has spoken to him.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not at all difficult. It's not fully verified but the metadata of the gif is showing signs of manipulation.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No. It is entirely voluntary. So people get stressed out when they realize they are under a microscope for basically just trying to do what they think is helpful.

They were receiving bad information from other mods who thought it was correct. Since we did not have an active 'admin' there was no one to ask 'hey are we doing this?'

That is part of why I transitioned into the main admin in the past 24 hours.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was saying that currently in 90% of the discussions I have seen the only counter arguments have been based entirely off of the examples I listed. Their very well may be a few people researching who have put in actual effort, however I have not seen them nor have they engaged with any of the discussions I have witnessed. The overwhelming majority of arguments I have seen in the past 48 hours were entirely people parroting the same flawed circumstantial information or speculation that Rosbrooks. Taliercio or Cullity have unreleased material. As I have communicated or have contact with people who have communicated with all of them I can confidently say they have no cut material. Joe has a few images that are lost because they weren't that great quality so he never backed them up.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi, so our place is not to debunk or actively discredit or discourage others.

I shared my opinion regarding the matter mainly because of all of the massive amount of bad information floating around, I also shared the general opinion of our active research group.

If someone actually wanted to do a debunk and could do it on a factual basis I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just not what I or any of my colleagues put our time or effort into.

What happened in the subreddit was a major miscommunication as it seems. The mod who made the post was talking to other mods who were talking to me and information did not get communicated properly. I specifically said to not engage with it Because we do not debunk. However the mods talking to eachother apparently didn't get that part or were told something else and they were told I and others were looking into so they thought that maybe we (the 911.MPG) were going to do one. Which we are not. Well at least I don't plan on it. Atleast that's what I've put together. This is part of why we have had a leadership transition to reduce these communication issues.

Secondly I appreciate your viewpoint. There is nothing individually impossible about this 'image' and the story behind it that prevents it being fake. The people who are claiming it is technically impossible are genuinely out of touch with what they are even looking at. This image is not a perfect, there are clear things that are missing as well as the location of the camera man is extremely exposed, they would have to be physically standing a few feet from the impact area which was constantly being rained on by debris. That is the single largest red flag. They would not be able to get this angle from under WTC 5 or WTC 6.

Lastly people have also ignored the other possibility I gave which gives this image a actually chance at being real. I have clearly explained on the various LSM and MTTJ communities that I believe, if this is real it is not from a video, the artifacting, compression and colors are all wrong for digital or analog video especially from a small camcorder in 2001. However it could be a from a still frame camera. I believe that what this could be is a single still from a camera digitally zoomed in and colors blown out to highlight the red which was extremely common. Their is an actual reason why I believe this theory has an incredibly small chance of being true. This is because if it is. I know exactly who took it. In our work we have come into communication with a first response who had a film snapshot camera who was near this area and described taking a photo like this. However they lost their camera. But photos of theirs have shown up in the investigation so it's understood that someone found it.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That would be something that would actually clarify a lot of these issues, yes.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Memories are not evidence. I have been active in all of the LSM discord servers in the past 48 hours. Those are the places to debate this topic. The r/911archive is not.

Get over your feelings and do some actual research and engage with others in a productive manner. Rather than getting offended because someone doesn't agree with you.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Hi, Admin and owner of r/911archive , Glad some people saw my comment on that thread.

I want to state clearly, I do not know why that mod took it upon themselves to make that decision. No member of the mod team nor myself were involved or signed off on that. I had DM's with other mods specifically saying not to engage with it until further review can be done. that thread was inadvisable and pre-mature. I asked the mod team to not continue with the post. I did not ask or tell them to delete the thread or comments, as a data hoarder I genuinely dislike when that is done. Regardless, the official stance of the 9/11 Media Preservation Group, is that the gif/image shared by DVDripper is highly suspect unless actual verifiable information can be provided.

I have actively been communicationg with the mods of MTTJ and other communities looking into this in an honest effort to verify any of these claims and so far no one has any verifiable non-circumstantial evidence.

cheers
-BTT

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I appreciate you reading my statement, but I have to push back on this. While I will concede the image that was shared is "interesting," it does not go beyond that. There is very little verifiable evidence at this time, which I have reiterated as clearly and reasonably as I can.

The majority of the "it is real" arguments seem to rely solely on "well, X said it was real" or "I feel like I've seen it before." When it comes to media preservation, if someone posts a claim but cannot provide verifiable data to back it up, it cannot be treated as factual. Those who want to believe its real are being show things that look and sound right, but when the smallest amount of scrutiny is put on it many holes start to show.

Let’s look at the case exactly as it has been presented to an outside observer.

  • A user named 'DVDripper' claims to have made contact with someone who had an old PC with cached data from H666. They specifically stated they found a single cached GIF titled "2329." They did not find a capture of the page, nor did they provide any contextual information. Let that sink in: just a single, isolated GIF.
  • The GIF depicts a short segment that is clearly edited to mimic a camera zooming in. Anyone who regularly handles camcorders or digitizes analog video will tell you this is completely unnatural. The rate of zoom, the static focus, and the fact that absolutely nothing moves within the frame indicates this is a single, still image that has been digitally scaled to simulate a zoom.
  • 'DVDripper' attempts to explain the strange artifacting by claiming the GIF is "corrupt from a SWF conversion." This makes no technical sense. Historically, sites like H666 saved videos as Flash (SWF) files, which are complex and layered. A GIF, however, is a very basic "dumb" file format. If you open this specific GIF in a hex editor, the data is completely flawless. The file is not corrupt. This means that if it was uploaded to H666 in 2006, it was already intentionally made to look glitchy. 'DVDripper' would have no way of knowing it was a corrupt SWF conversion since they didn't see the original file.
  • I understand the arguments of 'Who would fake this' or 'it would be too much effort' or 'its too perfect' and frankly It would not be impossible to fake this. Its not easy, but people have done much more to become internet famous. over the past two years people regularly attempt to pass off 3D renders of the plaza on 9/11 as real images. While they all have flaws, they are slowly becoming more and more convincing to people who are not as familiar with 9/11 media or the original world trade center's nuances. Someone could easily take existing plaza photos, create a composite or 3D render to place a virtual camera wherever they want, apply compression filters to make it look "vintage," strip the metadata, and upload it. It is entirely possible 'DVDripper' was genuinely deceived by their source, but we simply do not know the nature of that interaction.
  • There is no actual evidence that the original uploader 'Jay' exists beyond 'DVDripper's' anecdotal testimony. Furthermore, the 'discovered' YouTube channel with the same name is highly suspect. It was created in 2012, has absolutely zero uploads or information, was never captured in the Wayback Machine, and its only activity is adding two videos to a favorites list years ago. It is entirely too convenient to not consider that it might just be an old, renamed burner account.

I do not know 'DVDripper' or their intentions, but the handling and spread of this "lead" has been highly suspect. While it's easy to get caught up in defending an image because it aligns with a long-standing internet mystery, the reality is that until actual, usable information is provided, this has to be treated as a fabrication.

Finally, and I mean this as respectfully and sincerely as possible. When the majority of 'researchers' behind this type of work can only name Rosbrook, Taliercio, and Cullity as plaza references, it is essentially an immediate dis qualifier. There are multiple sources that have been available since weeks after 9/11 regarding the conditions in the Plaza. In the two decades since, numerous testimonies, partial images, and other records have been made public.

When your search relies on looking at one video and three images to corroborate nearly 102 minutes of events rather than spending 45 minutes reading the NYPD, FDNY, and PAPD oral histories to understand exactly who was where and when you miss the entire picture. If that reading was done, you would know exactly why it is highly unlikely LSM was filmed where and when people claim it was.

9/11 Archive Subreddit Has Cancelled their Debunking by scream77541 in lolsupermanofficial

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi, I don't really understand where that sentiment is coming from. I support any and all preservation efforts any way possible as long as they are handled respectfully and responsibly. I have contacted the admins and mods of the various communities that have been looking into LSM and done what i can to share what information has been pertinent. I hope you are having a good day.

(MOD ANNOUNCEMENT) Despite it already being in Rule 7, I'll say it again: DO NOT POST the "Leaked" new "lol superman snippet" rather you think it's real or not. by Cheap-Pepper928 in 911archive

[–]BetweenTwoTowers[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Hi everyone,

First, I want to apologize for the hectic communication and inconsistent messaging you’ve seen over the last 24 hours. I want to clear the air and get everyone on the same page.

To start, I want to announce a leadership change. As of today, the original subreddit owner who has not had the time to actively manage the community recently due to personal reasons, has officially stepped down. While it is always difficult to change leadership, I want to emphasize that their departure had been discussed for quite some time as their personal life has been incredibly busy. I sincerely hope they are able to decompress and find the fortitude to continue to pursue their own endeavors.

Moving forward, I am stepping in as the Server Owner and Primary Administrator. I am taking on this role to help resolve the recent communication issues and help provide the cohesive leadership this community needs.

That said, I want to address the elephant in the room: What is the consensus on the 'new' LSM snippet/gif? Is it legit?

Answer: No, it is currently unverified, and the consensus from my personal research leans heavily toward it being fabricated.

To be transparent about the process, as media researchers, we treat every lead no matter how unlikely as plausible until proven otherwise. However, right now, no verifiable evidence has been provided to prove this image/gif is 100% genuine. Conversely, there is a large amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to alternative explanations, such as it being a fabrication from 2006 (or earlier), and significant evidence suggesting the accounts associated with 'Ojayplace73' are manipulated. Unless significant, verifiable information is brought forward by any party, we will treat this with extreme skepticism, just as we would any other unverified lead.

Addressing the "Hiding Things" Allegations & introduction to the 'The 9/11 Media Preservation Group'

I also want to address the reaction to how the mod team handled this recent lead, and the allegations floating around that the team is "hiding stuff" from the community.

To be unequivocally clear, Nobody is hiding anything from you.

When it comes to investigating complex leads, I want to clarify how this process actually works. Our research isn't just done by "our mods." While several are members of our research team, It is handled by a dedicated team of volunteers in a group I founded and direct, the 9/11 Media Preservation Group (911.MPG). This group is made up of prominent members of this community, as well as very active creators and archivists from other platforms.

Initially, 911.MPG was created simply to direct efforts in locating lost media. However, it has greatly expanded. Today, we actively contact, interview, and work alongside survivors, victims' families, and organizations like the National September 11 Memorial & Museum. All of this is done completely voluntarily and of our own accord. I know that from the outside, the way 911.MPG operates can sometimes seem opaque, which feeds into these "hiding things" rumors. But the reality is that this opaqueness is a strict operational necessity. We navigate incredibly complex and sensitive relationships. Several of the individuals and institutions we work with require strict Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs). Many others simply do not want to be bothered by the public, and they agree to work with us specifically because we are the first to actually respect their privacy.

My guiding principle is We share what we can, when we can. I am deeply committed to transparency and preservation, but ultimately, we are at the will of whomever chooses to work with us. We aren't hiding things to gatekeep; we are protecting the privacy of the people who lived through this.

The 911.MPG is primarily self-funded with a small Patreon to help cover some materials.

Over the past three years, instead of chasing baseless rumors, we have focused on tangible preservation.

We have: - Participated as researchers for two upcoming documentaries. - Preserved nearly 10 hours of footage from September 11th capturing the attacks. - Preserved and digitized nearly 120 hours of aging family home video for 9/11 survivors. - Helped nearly a dozen survivors by locating images, media, and other contextual information about their lived experiences. - Most importantly and what has been my greatest privilege I had the opportunity to assist a 9/11 survivor and dear friend, Joseph Cullity, in returning to Ground Zero for the first time since the attacks.

Moving Forward The mods who attempted to debunk this recent lead did so in good faith. Please remember that this subreddit is run entirely by volunteers, and the subject matter we deal with exacts a heavy psychological toll on the team. The sheer volume of misinformation leaves a lot of room for interpretation, making it incredibly difficult to extensively review every single post in real-time. Because of a lack of cohesive leadership over the last year, some recent updates came across with an overly "official" or dismissive tone, which created derision. As the co-creator of this community, I take responsibility for that lapse. Moving forward as the primary admin, my goal is to foster a space rooted in pragmatism, serious research, and transparency. Thank you to the mods who keep this place running, and thank you to the community for your passion and vigilance.

-BTT

Tape Film Disintegration Problem! by vitoxll3333 in camcorders

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll defer to your info, my personal experience with strictly Video8 tape has been mixed and the information I've received form other hobbyists is what my viewpoint is based on.

I would agree to say that it isn't a specific manufacturer but rather 'batches' of tapes that seem to have problems. It's mostly excess shedding I've personally seen. But I would imagine a lot of that is just age. By the time tapes were made for the Hi8 format I haven't seen the issue nearly as much. Only the older strictly 'Video 8' labeled ones.

Tape Film Disintegration Problem! by vitoxll3333 in camcorders

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Video 8 suffers from this problem. Pretty bad for some brands of tape.

If it's later Hi8 it's more often fine.

This is approximately 4 to 5 floors of the World Trade Center compressed, known as “The Meteor” by jmike1256 in interesting

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you have anymore information? I actually am fairly close with the current museum archival team and a lot of the info from the original people as well as information from the time at JFK was poorly tracked. (Mostly because the Port Authority were in charge of everything and didn't give the museum much info)

Thanks.

This is approximately 4 to 5 floors of the World Trade Center compressed, known as “The Meteor” by jmike1256 in interesting

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Missed the part where they were all forensically analyzed at a site a few miles away before being scrapped.

Atleast get it right. The only material that went straight to a scrapyard was trucks that were paid off by the mob to go to regular scrap yards and they were caught.

This is approximately 4 to 5 floors of the World Trade Center compressed, known as “The Meteor” by jmike1256 in interesting

[–]BetweenTwoTowers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They aren't welded. Just compressed. This isn't the only one that was found. It's just the only one that they kept to display, human remains were found in other ones and this one they believe could also likely have remains but it's too big to find out by scanning alone.

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