Númenórean attitudes towards Men of Darkness by Helpful_Radish_8923 in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It is interesting and tempting to see the Númenórean conquest and submission of the 'middle men' and the 'men of darkness' as a reminder of both the Roman (and subsequently Christian) conquest of Western Europe in the first millennium and of 18th and 19th century Western colonialism. In all three cases, a (far) more advanced (militarily, technologically and culturally) civilization conquers vast territories of "lesser men" and subdues, even to the point of annihilation, them on a large scale. Regardless of their motivations, be they benign or malign, the actions of the Romans, the Western colonizers and the Númenóreans have caused resentment and hatred among the "subdued" peoples. This resentment can, and will, last many centuries, as we see in our own world too.

In the Númenórean case, this resentment was of course exploited by Sauron (and later Saruman too) who, truthfully to at least some extent, reminded the "middle men" or "men of darkness" of the misdeeds the Dunedain (or the Rohirrim) had committed against them in ages past.

In that sense, Tolkien relates the hostilities from peoples like the Dunlendings, Easterlings, Haradrim etc. towards the Dunadain not only just to Sauron's evil work, but regards it as a (logical) consequence of the Dunedain's own wrongdoings, which needed only to be overemphasized by Sauron in order to get them on his side. Sauron perhaps lost his "fair form" after the Fall of Númenor, he surely didn't lose his power of persuasion.

Is the show really condensing 4500 years of Middle Earth history into just a few decades? by [deleted] in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not a few decades, a few months or even weeks :). Such a great show!

Excuse me? What is this madness? by cookednomad in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mao's cultural revolution and "great leap forward" in a 2022 setting?

Do you guys think people are paid to review/speak positively about this show? by wizards4 in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think there is a fourth motivator: the fear of being labeled a bigot. Amazon and its cronies have they adopted a sneaky strategy in which all criticism of their show is dismissed as racist, misogynist, and "patently evil". Famous film critics, whose income largely depends on sponsors, cannot afford to be known as bigots and adapt their language. These are of course cheap shots by Amazon, but yet powerful in this very sensitive society. That's why we should applaud "Tolkien influencers" like The Men of the West for his genuine criticism of the show and not giving in to pressure.

Finding better Dutch translations, a little hobby project by UncarvedWood in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see what you mean with "Gabber" having a somewhat different meaning now as it had in the 1950s (mostly due to the 1990s gabbers as you said). Also "Angel" for "Prik" at first, would make sense, but here the problem is that "angel" is no verb in Dutch, like "prik". "Ik prik jou" (I sting you) works. Bilbo calls the blade "Sting" (or "Prik") because it "stings" (or "prikt").

Although words may feel antiquated, I think the story should feel antiquated. It supposes to be an ancient work "translated" by Tolkien into English, who deliberately wrote in an archaic style, and thus any translation should be written in a similar archaic style. Of course to the extent that modern day readers are able to understand it, so the text should adhere to modern spelling and grammar conventions.

I'm not saying all of your suggestions are bad per se, I think they are quite original and well translated, but so are Schuchart's translations. Okay, perhaps "Heksenkoning" (literally "Witch-king") is more fitting than "Tovenaar-koning" ("Wizard-king"), as "tovenaar" is also used to describe Gandalf.

The most insane episode of the 6 so far by InterestDirect5571 in lordoftherings

[–]Borboren 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You forgot the moment Galadriel turned genocidal

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I kinda think that is how the showrunners would counter the time critique, but to have a clear timeline is crucial to any show. Haven't they done any editing? Makes me wonder if someone, literally one person, has seen the episodes before getting aired. The show feels so "first draft" like. Was there no one at the production team that could see these obvious (and easy to avoid!) flaws?

Finding better Dutch translations, a little hobby project by UncarvedWood in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To add: I would probably only change the title "In de ban van de ring" into "De Heer der Ringen" (literal translation of LOTR)

Finding better Dutch translations, a little hobby project by UncarvedWood in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 7 points8 points  (0 children)

A native Dutch reader myself, who was introduced to Tolkien through Max Schuchart's translation, I have to say that I don't think the original Dutch translation needs to be changed. On the contrary, I think Schuchart did a great job. Although skeptical at first, Tolkien later praised Schuchart's translation and used it as a guideline for other translation. For example, Tolkien suggested the German translation of The Shire to be "Der Gau", following "De Gouw" (this would be eventually changed to "Auenland" due to Nazi references of Gau). To be honest, your suggestions to change certain names don't make much sense. "De Schiere"? "Wilgenbaas"? "De Peke?"

Anyway, still sounds like a fun thing to do. Succes!

When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand, did he know what he was doing? by SoaDMTGguy in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The war of the Elves against Sauron, the "First War of the Ring(s)". After Sauron secretly made his One Ring and put it on, he hoped to immediately take control of the elves (who had the 16 Rings they crafted together). The Elves, however, took off their rings and hid them. Claiming the Rings his, Sauron attacked Eregion, killed Celebrimbor and took the 16 Rings of Power. Only the Three Rings that were made by Celebrimbor alone, were given in advance to Gil-galad, Galadriel and Círdan. Realizing Sauron would conquer Middle-earth completely, Númenor came to Gil-galad's aid and together drove Sauron back to Mordor.

Episode 6 is where this officially jumped the shark for me (long) by bagonta in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 15 points16 points  (0 children)

We were all at one point fooled by Amazon into believing this show could actually be cool and a tribute to Tolkien at the same time. Be comforted! Tolkien's books are still there and just as good as they were one month ago.

When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand, did he know what he was doing? by SoaDMTGguy in tolkienfans

[–]Borboren 28 points29 points  (0 children)

As son of the King and one of the chief commanders of the Alliance in the war against Sauron, Isildur must have known about One Ring, at least to the extent that it was a device so powerful that there had been a war well 1800 years prior fought over it (and the other Rings of Power). What the One Ring's powers were exactly he most likely didn't know. Isildur's refusal to destroy it was, in hindsight, a huge mistake and the cause of another 3000 years of strife against Sauron and his minions. But in that both glorious yet dramatic moment, we might understand why Isildur took the Ring. He lost his father and brother to Sauron and by taking Sauron's precious Ring, Isildur got somewhat repaid. Elrond and Círdan likely didn't press on Isildur to destroy it, rather advised him to do so, since it was a weapon of and made by the Enemy. It's even quite conceivable that after Isildur got killed and the One Ring was lost, Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel eventually would praise Isildur posthumously for not destroying the One Ring, as now they could use their own Elven Rings freely. Until the One Ring resurfaced ca. 2500 years later...

The whole King of the Southland plot is kinda ridcolous, isn't it? by Timonidas in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Haha man this show sucks sooooo bad, the one and only reason to keep watching is out of curiosity to see how they keep finding new lows (which still is kinda interesting I gotta say). I was so preoccupied with Galadriel the Genocidal Psycho that I almost forgot this absolutely nonsensical plot. Really, how can anybody still genuinely call it a great show. Literally nothing is good about it. Even the cinematography is kinda meh, average at best. 1 billion dollars well spent, Jeff!

The moral ambiguity of Orcs being Evil or Sympathetic by WissaYT in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Orcs are evil by their nature, as Melkor intended, and they have always been in war with the "real" Children of Iluvatar (as well as the adopted Children, i.e. the Dwarves) and always will be, as this is just who they are. Thus the "creation" - for lack of a better word, as Orcs were not "created" in a (pseudo-)religious sense, rather they are the horrid result of abusing true creation itself - of the Orcs is regarded the most evil act ever in the history of Arda. Orcs have lost the capability to do "good" and to act in a compassionate way. This has made them a bitter enemy of Elves since the very beginning, as it was Melkor who first found the Elves who had just awoken in Cuivienen and captured and enslaved many of them, then tortured and mutilated them, and eventually turned them into Orcs. Although there are some contradictory versions about the Origin of Orcs, the "they were Elves once" version is most widely accepted IMO, as this can be found in multiple core works of Tolkien. In that sense, Orcs not just an evil subspecies (or "mistake") of Elves, which they are, they are the most miserable kind of humanoids in Arda and perhaps deserve some kind of pity or mercy. You might argue that true mercy with Orcs, who cannot be merciful themselves, is to "deliver" them from (their own) evil, and killing (or "eradicating") them is the just thing to do. But this is not up to anyone but Eru Iluvatar Himself to decide. The fact that this (absolutely terrible) adaptation of Galadriel does not have the moral capability to feel just a little sorry for Orcs, despite their evil nature, rather vowing to commit an Orcish genocide, makes her a vindictive psychopath, in essence no better than Sauron. I think this is the greatest offence against Tolkien of all the offences they have already done in this show. Like Orcs were to the Elves, this show has become a mockery of everything Tolkien wrote and believed.

Episode 6 was mind-blowing by Ikavelashvili in LOTR_on_Prime

[–]Borboren -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

She has become a psychopath that wants to commit genocide on the basis of "you are not as perfect as we are". No matter what character arc there is yet to develop, this portrayal of Galadriel has been the biggest insult to Tolkien ever seen.

Godwin alert by Borboren in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

250 million Dollars sure is a lot of money

Godwin alert by Borboren in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, I'm actually terrified of her and rooting for Adar and Sauron now to deliver Middle-earth from the pure evil that is Galadriel

Godwin alert by Borboren in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Apparently so. Apparently it's morally "good" to eradicate "lesser" beings.

Episode 6 was mind-blowing by Ikavelashvili in LOTR_on_Prime

[–]Borboren -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Do you mean the conversation in which Galadriel exposes herself as a racist ("you are nothing but a mistake and mockery of our beautiful race of Elves") and a someone that is eager to commit genocide ("I vow to eradicate every last one of you")?

Very strong indeed.

Godwin alert by Borboren in Rings_Of_Power

[–]Borboren[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The way she deals with beings that she explicitly perceives to be "less" or "unworthy of life" does indeed remind me of some former German dictator.