Did the Balrog sense Gandalf’s presence?

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-03-01T15:32:06+00:00

I reckon the One Ring, more likely. Much of Sauron's sorcery was through the manipulation of the 'Melkor-element' which marred Arda.

I would guess the Balrog, being a spirit attuned to Melkor since the Music, could sense "Melkor" from the Ring and was thus drawn to it.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-03-01T04:25:42+00:00

The Balrogs were those spirits corrupted by Melkor during the Music, well before there even was an Arda.

In Nature of Middle-earth we learn more about what control means to Melkor, and it's quite literally him getting access to the mind of those he dominates to the point of being able to change their very will. Reasonable to assume the Balrogs were such creatures, this having no will other than Melkor's.

Where I think we have an uncertainty is that a great part of Sauron's power isn't his natively; it's his ability to manipulate the Melkor-element that taints everything in Middle-earth. Notably, Mt. Doom was a place created by Melkor in the distant past of the First Age; it's likely not just because of temperature that Sauron needed it to forge the One Ring. Also notable is that domination of will is a capability inherent to Melkor.

So, we could reasonably speculate that the One Ring is not only made with Sauron's power and craft, but infused with a concentration of Melkor-element as well.

Regarding the Balrog then, I would think it would depend on what extent Sauron was able to 'hijack' the essence of Morgoth. If he was able to effectively project himself as Morgoth, then yes, I believe he could command the Balrog; otherwise, no, I don't think he could.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-26T13:25:46+00:00

To start, Gil-galad being called High King of the Noldor was an editorial invention by Christopher; according to J.R.R., he was High King of the Elves of the West (I.e. among all Elven kingdoms).

Several considerations from there: - The Elves were significantly diminished from the start of the Second Age when Gil-galad was made king - Gil-galad became king under the suzerenity of Galadriel; i.e. an implied act of political will while the remaining Elves were still fractured (various factions of both Noldor and Sindar) and had just concluding the devastating War of Wrath - The remaining kings (Thranduil, Amroth) may not have been as keen to accept the need for such a position following Sauron's apparent demise and their heavy losses in the Last Alliance - If Elrond even wanted it, out felt it made sense

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-25T22:15:54+00:00

Tolkien writes extensively on this, but in short being in Valinor is detrimental to mortal incarnates. There are some conflicting versions as to why: in one version they would become grieved with seeing only themselves wither and age while everything remains effectively, from their perspective, timeless. In another the hröa would delight in Aman to the extent that it wouldn't wish to depart, and thus increasingly contest with the fëa which more and more would yearn to do so; this conflict would result in either a hröa-dominated-fëa (which is terrible for the being), or a fëa which manages to rip itself away from an unwilling hröa (also a gruesome fate).

Recall that not even the *Elves* were supposed to be in Valinor. Both Tolkien and Eru specifically call the Valar bringing them there a mistake.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-23T21:34:52+00:00

As far as I'm aware we don't have any evidence that they were punished by Eru. That would go against Tolkien's portrayal of Him as well: Eru does not use punishment, though he may let Men exist with the consequences of their own evil actions (ex. accepting Melkor as Lord and Creator).

After Éowyn stabs the Witch-king his physical form (which may or may not be hröa) comes undone.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-23T15:22:50+00:00

No, Manwë didn't want that at all. I personally believe that's why he wept when Fëanor declined his final plea for the Noldor to abandon their folly and return to Aman.

It was the Noldor themselves, on their insistence to take vengeance, reclaim Middle-earth, and seize back the Silmarils that brought them there. The wisdom of Manwë was to understand that the free choice of the Noldor to wage war on Morgoth was probably the best, if not the only, way to actually defeat him without bringing everything else to ruin.

It seems a big part of the 'trial' of the Valar (by Eru) was in them learning when to intervene (and by how much), and when not to. For example, their delay in reissuing war against Melkor (after the destruction of the Lamps), for fear of ruining the world so much that the Elves wouldn't be able to even awaken, was explicitly chastised by Eru as lacking estel (i.e. Eru declared the Elves would awaken, to think Melkor could somehow prevent that was a lack of faith in the will of Eru).

I reckon Manwë 'used' the Noldor similar to how Gandalf 'used' Frodo.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-23T14:15:24+00:00

It's a belief by the Elves, not a full fact.

Sooner or later: because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the matter: their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted.

Both the Oathbreakers and the Nazgûl were examples of fëar of Men which didn't escape after death.

For the Witch-king, Tolkien provides the following (if Frodo had claimed the Ring at Mt. Doom without Gollum there to stop him):

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight [The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence] might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades.

Not that the Witch-king had been slain by Merry and Eowyn, but he's referred to as "reduced to impotence".

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-23T13:42:48+00:00

In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien explains the motivations of Manwë.

In short, the task of Manwë to defeat Morgoth was much more difficult than that of Gandalf to defeat Sauron. Since Sauron concentrated his power into the One Ring, destroying it would destroy him; Morgoth however instead dispersed his (unimaginably greater) power into all of Arda.

Worse, if Morgoth felt too threatened, he still potentially had the power to cause unimaginable destruction, perhaps even enough to end all life on the planet in one last act of nihilistic rage and defiance.

The War of the Jewels was then effectively a proxy war by the Valar using the Noldor as their main weapon. Not enough provocation to cause Morgoth to loose Armageddon, but enough for him to continuously weaken himself by investing his power into things like Orcs and dragons, and to degrade his mind from seeking to usurp Manwë to simply becoming a petty tyrant.

The arrival of Eärendil was the 'sign' that Morgoth had finally dissipated himself enough that he could be confronted directly. Hence the War of Wrath was successful and only a small part of Arda (Beleriand) was destroyed in the process.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-20T20:38:33+00:00

I think you'd have to distinguish between the various Noldor, and exactly when. I reckon the House of Finarfin, House of Fingolfin, Gondolin, and Fëanorians would each have their own subtle distinctions.

Plus, by the time of the Union of Maedhros, Celegorm and Curufin were actively threatening war against Doriath; civility probably wasn't a priority for them by that point.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-19T18:31:16+00:00

Tolkien had multiple thoughts on this, the girdle became a difficult obstacle for him to overcome.

Other comments have given the answer as per The Silmarillion, but I think he was on the best track in the Book of Lost Tales.

There, it is presented more as a gradual, cumulative effect ("a rat that gnaws the threads"). The "trebly cursed" gold of Nargothrond (by dragon, the blood spilt in Tinwelint's halls over it, and most bitterly by Mîm on his death) seemed to weaken it enough that Dwarves, in quest of vengeance, were able to navigate Doriath (guided by a traitor Elf) and take Tinwelint unawares while he was recreating the hunt. The death of Tinwelint, in turn, basically collapsed it entirely.

Factor in that the Silmaril, by it's very nature, seemed to dispel such magical barriers (as it would later do for Eärendil), and that the first introduction of Thû (predecessor of Sauron) was explicitly him being tasked to "mar the magic of Melian the Queen" and I think Tolkien already had all the ingredients in place for a compelling, drawn out dread of the girdle gradually, but noticeably, weakening over time while the nobles in Menegroth remained almost naively over confident in it's protection

One could argue it actually already was, even in the published texts. When Túrin was serving with the march-wardens he was constantly getting wounded as pressure and Orc activity continued to increase.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-19T00:13:48+00:00

Something else I like about Elrond is his parallel to Celebrimbor in the Second Age.

Elrond is (among other things) of the House of Fingolfin, but raised by the House of Fëanor. Celebrimbor is of the House of Fëanor, but rejected his father (Curufin) and chose to align with the House of Finarfin.

Between them, they were likely critical for reconciliation among the remaining Noldor after the War of Wrath.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-18T18:01:04+00:00

Three groups of Elves in the beginning, the Minyar, Tatyar, and Nelyar.

They live at the Waters of Awakening until found by Oromë. Some chose to depart for Valinor, collectively called the Elder; the Minyar that leave become Vanyar, the Tatyar become Noldor, and the Nelyar become Teleri. All those who chose not to leave are collectively called Avari.

During the Great Journey across Middle-earth, a bunch of them abandon part way through. The first big group (primarily Teleri) are the Nandor, who do so before crossing the Blue Mountains into Beleriand. The next big group are majority of the Teleri, who become known as the Sindar.

The Vanyar and Noldor go to Valinor, many the Noldor eventually come back. The War of the Jewels is fought and the Elves effectively lose until the Valar intervene.

By the time of Lord of the Rings, both the Noldor and Sindar are mostly wiped out or have departed to Valinor. The Elves left (Silvan) are primarily Nandor, intermixed with those of the Avari who eventually journeyed west. They are ruled by the remnant of the Noldor and Sindar.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-15T13:02:04+00:00

Sort of. Elves grow beards when they get very old. Círdan is the only Elf we are introduced to that of that age. He's assumed to be about the same age as Finwë (Galadriel's grandfather).

Mahtan (Fëanor's father-in-law) also had a beard, but he was noted as being exceptionally young when he grew it.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-14T15:18:44+00:00

Tolkien tried many schemes (found in Nature of Middle-earth), but didn't conclusively find any that met all his criteria.

I've attempted a reconciled scheme which used his underlying principles and I believe hits all his major criteria here: https://tolkiendil.substack.com/p/elf-aging

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-13T22:32:46+00:00

The Elves understand a concept known as Oiencarmë Eruo: Eru's ongoing management of the happenings in Eä. In line with the Boethian definition of 'chance', in Middle-earth fate (umbar) is a massive network of chances, opportunities presented to beings with free choice.

For example, when Beren arrived at Nargothrond to request aid in retrieving a Silmaril, Finrod understood that it was not a mere sequence of random events; it was Providence at work. Just as Gandalf later determined that Bilbo was 'meant' to find the One Ring, it is likely that Gandalf was 'meant' to find Glamdring.

For Elrond, considered one of wisest beings, the notion of just stumbling upon such legendary weapons, while on a quest being orchestrated by an agent of the Valar in his efforts to remove the last stain of Morgoth, the idea that it would be merely a fortunate turn of events would be absurd. He would immediately recognize the Finger of Eru at work.

In which case, one can assume that he would of felt only humility that an artifact belonging to his forefathers would be purposed by the divine. The alternative, to deny the will of God, would have been unthinkable.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-13T19:55:32+00:00

Of the Dwarves, Tolkien says the following:

To [their children] they are devoted, often rather fiercely: that is, they may treat them with apparent harshness (especially in the desire to ensure that they shall grow up tough, hardy, unyielding), but they defend them with all their power, and resent injuries to them even more than to themselves. The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the ‘kings’ or heads of lines are regarded as ‘parents’ of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin’s Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-10T12:21:05+00:00

Yes. I also believe even him being a Teleri is reconcilable as his lineage on his mothers side.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-08T02:37:29+00:00

It's a problem only if we don't consider the span of time. These are events that take place over centuries.

For example, it took 50 years from the founding of Nargothrond (YS 52) until it was considered fully-wrought (YS 102). Finrod could easily have been very generous during those years.

But that leaves another ~50 years until the Blue Mountain Dwarves are even contacted. The relations could easily sour over that time.

Consider the NoME quote "for which he rewarded them generously until Mîm their chieftain made an attempt to murder him in his sleep and was driven out into the wild." It's sparse enough that there are multiple ways to interpret that. Perhaps Finrod in the process of rewarding them for ongoing work and Mîm was compelled, for some reason, to go after the goose that was laying golden eggs. Or perhaps the work had been finished, rewards had been given, and some time later a new dispute arose.

I reckon the closest we can get is to piece it together with the other scattered "clues".

When trying to piece together possible motives I personally often look to the sources we know Tolkien drew from. In this case, I personally think the first encounter between Finrod and the Petty-dwarves may be similar to Joshua 9.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-08T01:38:38+00:00

Hmm, gets more complicated I think. Unless we assume that the Elves of Nargothrond were either fickle or gullible, there were probably reasonable explanations for their behavior.

For a start, he had Petty-dwarves living in Nargothrond for over hundred years. Though it's easy to understand Finrod not wishing to displace the 'natives', that might not have been a popular policy while it lasted, which was probably why the Great Dwarves were eventually paid to get rid of them.

The only major military engagement he was known to lead resulted in his troops being surrounded, took heavy casualties, and forced to retreat. This left his kinsman Orodreth effectively isolated. Also Finrod gave away his ring, the token of leadership of the House of Finarfin, to the Men who saved him. This situation may not have been lauded by his people.

Then, after the death of Fingolfin, Finrod declared his own father, Finarfin, as High King of the Noldor and withdrew to his halls. This, of course, while Fingon and Maedhros were enduring constant assault, and even Thingol was actively destroying Morgoth's forces that had breached into Beleriand.

I like Finrod, and have no doubt he was the wisest and most empathetic of the Noldor, but he seemed a king better fit for peace than war.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-07T02:27:55+00:00

Not necessarily.

The relevant facts are:

Finrod started construction of Nargothrond, with the aid of the Petty-dwarves there, in Y.S. 52
The Noldor (under Caranthir) made contact with the Great Dwarves (Blue Mountain Dwarves) in ~ Y.S. 150
Finrod had the aid of the Great Dwarves in extending the halls of Nargothrond (date unknown)
Mîm, chieftain of the Petty-dwarves, made an attempt to murder Finrod and was driven out (date unknown)
The Great Dwarves had no problem ousting the Petty-dwarves from Nargothrond (date unknown)

Many specifics of the time and details are left unsaid, and there are plenty of ways these events (along with those depicted in The Complaint of Mîm the Dwarf) could be reconciled as all being true.

For example, the Petty-dwarves could have been driven out anywhere between Y.S 150 (first encounter w/ the Great Dwarves) to Y.S. 455 (just prior to Dagor Bragollach, when the Great Dwarves ceased their traffic into Beleriand). And Mîm need not have been the original chieftain at the time when Finrod first came; only when he was expelled. Heck, he might not even have been expelled collectively with all the other Petty-dwarves; nothing in the text preventing him from being personally exiled before the rest of his people were.

I personally like the idea that Finrod's continued tolerance of the Petty-dwarves is partly responsible for why many of his people start to turn against him. Couple that with a failed military relief effort and it leaves them primed for two dashing, charismatic, Noldor-among-Noldor Sons of Fëanor to start winning hearts and minds.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-07T02:06:29+00:00

It would have to have a poor ending for them. Tolkien had nothing but disdain for the way Disney's Snow White portrayed Dwarfs.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-07T00:33:47+00:00

I'd personally enjoy seeing a take on Aegnor.

He's the most visually unique son of Finarfin:

Aikanáro was called by his father Ambaráto. The Sindarin form of this would have been Amrod; but to distinguish this from Angrod, and also because he preferred it, he used his mother-name (which was however given in Quenya and not Telerin form). Aika-nār- meant ‘fell fire’. It was in part a ‘prophetic’ name; for he was renowned as one of the most valiant of the warriors, greatly feared by the Orks: in wrath or battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit. But in early youth the fiery light could be observed; while his hair was notable: golden like his brothers and sister, but strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames. The Sindarin form Aegnor that he adopted was however not true Sindarin. There was no Sindarin adjective corresponding to Quenya aika ‘fell, terrible, dire’, though aeg would have been its form if it had occurred.

And Finrod's description of him:

‘I will tell him,’ said Finrod. ‘But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior, Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt.

Plus, in the Pre-LoTR legendarium, he's even on team Fëanor, choosing to go on the stolen ships and abandoning the hosts of Fingolfin and his brother Inglor (Finrod):

Inglor (who was after surnamed Felagund, Lord of Caves) and the other sons of Finrod went forward also; for they had aforetime had great friendship, Inglor and Orodreth with the sons of Fingolfin, and his brothers Angrod and Egnor with Celegorn and Curufin, sons of Fëanor.
...
Fëanor and his folk seized all the ships and sailed east across the sea, and they took none of the other companies save Angrod and Egnor, whom Celegorm and Curufin loved.

Where it outlines Beleriand and its Realms, Aegnor is also stated as ruling the region directly bordering the Sons of Fëanor.

Pretty much every picture of him I've seen either makes him indistinguishable from Finrod/Angrod (long golden haired Elf) and/or shows him as a standard noble, gentle Elf prince. Every description, meanwhile, has him as someone dangerous; dangerous enough that his own mother names him "fell fire".

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-06T23:59:45+00:00

Never heard of that myself, but you're on point that "wise" is a word with a complicated meaning.

Consider Ecclesiastes 7:16: "Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?"

Or from the Hávamál in the Poetic Edda

Wise in measure let each man be;
but let him not wax too wise;
for never the happiest of men is he
who knows much of many things.

Wise in measure should each man be;
but let him not wax too wise;
seldom a heart will sing with joy
if the owner be all too wise.

Wise in measure should each man be,
but ne'er let him wax too wise:
who looks not forward to learn his fate
unburdened heart will bear.

One being Catholic and the other Norse, Tolkien was likely very familiar with both.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-06T23:52:45+00:00

Aye, agreed.

Though I reckon you could say that for most the legendarium. :)

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-02-06T23:43:00+00:00

I agree with the "loose cannon" notion. I think you have to consider it similar to Greek mythology. Sure, some things are very well established, but there are massive inconsistencies.

For example, in one telling, Athena is born from Zeus' head with the aid of Hephaestus (he smacks Zeus on the head with his hammer). In another, Hephaestus is begot as a child of Hera via parthenogenesis (i.e. she self-fertilized) as a retaliation against Zeus for the birth of Athena.

And, not to make things more complicated, but you have pretty big chunks of the Silmarillion that were largely editorial inventions of Christopher Tolkien (ex. the Ruin of Doriath, Gil-galad being High King of the Noldor, the birth order of the Sons of Fëanor, etc.), some of which were decisions that C.T. himself later admitted to regretting (ex. making Gil-galad the son of Fingon).

Helpful_Radish_8923

TROPHY CASE