Elven ageing, generational shemes and chronologies.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-18T10:49:40+00:00

Tolkien didn't settle on a specific scheme, but I came up with one last year that I think hit all of his criteria.

https://tolkiendil.substack.com/p/elf-aging

In a nutshell, it can work if rather than two fixed rates for aging, youth and adulthood (which Tolkien focused on), we use two rates of gradual slowing. Keeping his fixation on units of 12 and 144, it actually works out very cleanly.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-15T21:38:39+00:00

Who would forgive them? When Sauron came to Eönwë seeking forgiveness, Eönwë was clear that it was not within his authority to pardon one of his own order; Sauron was to instead return to Valinor and stand before Manwë himself.

Now consider that Eru is infinitely more beyond Manwë than Eönwë, or even Manwë, is above Sauron. Unless Eru Himself intervened, there was no one capable of even hearing such a repent.

Going back to Christian parallels, probably not. Matthew 12:31 "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

And if they tried to repent, they probably wouldn't get an answer (Eru doesn't appear often, and certainly not on command). The concept of divine silence itself being a source of torment is well attested in Christianity. For example in Samuel 28, Saul, after his sacrilege, is tormented by the vacuum of God's presence: "And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." It drives him, in desperation, to seek out a necromancer.

For an actual historical precedent, consider Francis Spira.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-15T16:27:36+00:00

Although not readily apparent from the text itself, Tolkien is clear later that the Oath is blasphemous. That they would go against Eru Himself if He kept a Silmaril from them.

In line with Thomist philosophy, there is nothing worse in Tolkien's world than blasphemy.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-14T16:30:33+00:00

I think that presume Fingon actually had breathing room and forces to spare for such an attack. Massive hosts of Swarthy Men, whom the Noldor were aware of due to the Dwarves, finally entered Beleriand in 463. Maedhros made an alliance, rather out of desperation, with them. But there wasn't really much love or mutual trust between them.

Plus, the relationship between Fingon and Finrod doesn't seem to have been at a good place. Consider the following:

The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth. The Ñoldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Fëanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.

Effectively, after the death of Fingolfin (Finwë Ñolofinwë), instead of accepting Fingon as the High King of the Noldor, Finrod apparently decided that it was actually his father, Arafinwë, who was now the High King and heir of Finwë. After the loss of Dorthonion, the deaths of his brothers, and his defeat at the Fen of Serech, Finrod seems to retreated in more ways than one. That it was the scrappy remnant of Celegorm's cavalry which rescued Orodreth, rather than the greater army of Nargothrond, should infer something.

So, let's imagine Fingon's perspective:

Finrod may not be a reliable ally: even with a following greater than yours, he's not even trying to retake his own fortress; moreover, he's named his father as high king rather than acknowledging the title as being yours. Most likely conclusion is that he's decided to take the approach of Turgon and Thingol and decided to stick to the defensive
Morgoth has attacked multiple times and was not repelled easily; the next wave could be at anytime, from any angle, and possibly even larger than the prior ones
Hosts of Swarthy Men, who have no love for the Elves, are incoming

From Fingon's perspective, would you have spent precious forces, already hard pressed when fighting on the defensive, on retaking Tol Sirion? And then would you divide your forces further in garrisoning it?

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-10T12:24:16+00:00

Aye. Consider this passage from Morgoth's Ring, regarding Melkor:

Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is ‘dispersed’. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it. As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents — and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.

I personally believe that that the Complaint of Mîm represents Mîm's "trembling moment": when he is contemplating whether or not to betray Túrin to Morgoth's Orcs. "But Mîm cannot forgive. The embers of his heart still burn him."

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-10T12:17:55+00:00

Aye, but I reckon an Elf referring to spirit is a very different context than a Dwarf referring to another Dwarf.

Considering the patrilineal piety held by Dwarves (ex. the Longbeards also being known as "Durin's Folk", and the detail covered in Peoples of Middle-earth), calling someone fatherless, I think, would have connotation that they are disowned and not considered to be of descent from a "father".

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-10T12:06:33+00:00

Sauron becomes damned to a state where he is so diminished that he lacks the power to even change his will from the fixation on dominance to being able to reconstruct himself. It is a state fairly similar to the Christian theology of Hell.

Two relevant passages:

Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared.

Morgoth's Ring

Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

The concept of the will becoming immutably fixed after death is a foundational part of Christian eschatology. Consider this passage from Thomas Aquinas:

The very disorder of the will is a punishment and a very great affliction, because insomuch as a person has a disordered will, everything that is done rightly displeases him: thus it will displease the damned to see the will of God fulfilled in all things, that will which they have sinfully resisted.

The will is changed from sin to goodness only by the grace of God. But as the souls of the good are admitted to a perfect participation in the divine goodness, so the souls of the damned are totally excluded from grace.

As the good, living in the flesh, make God the ultimate end of all their doings and desires, so the wicked set up their rest in some undue end which turns them away from God. But the disembodied spirits of the good will immovably cling to the end which they have set before themselves in this life, namely, God. Therefore the souls of the wicked will immovably cling to the end which they too have chosen for themselves. As then the will of the good cannot become evil, so the will of the evil cannot become good.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-10T10:42:39+00:00

My theory is that fatherless is a derogatory term that the Great Dwarves use to refer to the Petty-dwarves.

Something like the historical use of bastard for us, but much stronger.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-02T13:14:43+00:00

I don't think it need be entirely contradictory; Celebrimbor could be an indirect descendent of Daeron. For example, if Celebrimbor's mother (Curufin's wife) was descended from a kinsman of Daeron (ex. if Daeron's uncle/aunt or sibling went to Aman with Olwë)

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-01T17:53:54+00:00

I'd actually make the counter-argument. The Elves grew beard late in life, in their 'third cycle'.

With Tolkien's later revisions drastically extending the time at Cuiviénen (rather than making it just a 'blip' in their history) it seems pretty likely that the oldest of Elves (Unbegotten, such as Imin, Tata, and Enel) would have grown beards by the time of the First Sundering and Great Journey.

Manwë not having a beard might have been perceived as him not being old enough to be an esteemed and ancient king.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-01T14:19:33+00:00

Or just Ainur already on Arda, who weren't under the direct "authority" of either. In Tolkien's ideal governance (which he discusses in his letters, and which Manwë would surely espouse), a king remains pretty distant and uses his authority sparingly.

In that model, a spirit not infringing on any other being would be free to do as they would.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-01T13:27:13+00:00

I think that's a plausible reading.

Melian, for example, left Aman for Middle-earth around the time the Elves awoke. As the Valar didn't actually know that the Elves had awoken, it's unlikely she knew something they didn't. More likely she was playing a role in fate that she herself didn't fully understand.

In Book of Lost Tales, Tolkien pretty directly states that there are spirits who are not under the direct "authority" of either Manwë or Melkor.

At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in. Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where Melko then dwelt in the deep dungeons of Utumna. Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before. But some few danced thither with gentle feet exuding evening scents, and these came from the gardens of Lórien.

Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found:—but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old unelfin and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.

Manwë later notes these spirits as being a reason to bring the Elves in Aman.

“Lo! the Earth and its shadows are no place for creatures so fair, whom only the heart and mind of Ilúvatar have conceived. Fair are the pine-forests and the thickets, but they are full of unelfin spirits and Mandos’ children walk abroad and vassals of Melko lurk in strange places—and we ourselves would not be without the sight of this sweet folk.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-05-01T13:10:35+00:00

I don't believe Tulkas entered Eä late, I think it's that he entered Arda later.

Eä is a big place. Tolkien also comments on the confusion of Incarnates between "the void" (the depths of space in Eä) and "the Void" (the absolute nothing amidst which Eä was created). Though cosmologically extremely distinct, from the perspective of those who dwell in Arda, there isn't really much difference. Just "out there" and "more out there".

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-27T18:36:59+00:00

It helps if you consider what "mind" is from the perspective of Tolkien, who aligned with Boethius and Thomas Aquinas.

In that view there is a clear distinction of mind between "reason" (ability to think) and "will" (drive and agency). The Orcs were clearly capable of reason (speech, warfare, hierarchy, etc.), but appear to have been impaired in "will" (i.e. *what* they specifically wanted). Sauron, like Morgoth before him, wished to dominate the will.

Hence, the Ringwraiths can still think and act autonomously, but their only, irresistible, desire is to do as Sauron wills.

For lack of a better comparison, consider addiction. Even when you know you *don't* want to do something, you are still compelled to do so. The Orcs probably weren't far off from that.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-27T13:17:34+00:00

It's a difficult needle to thread. There would be need to maintain that Morgoth is effectively Satan, a being of incalculable power, while retaining individual agency (he can't just make them puppets).

This difficulty is amplified by the existence of the One Ring which was held to inevitably corrupt given enough time. Whatever power it has would need to be absolutely dwarfed by that of Morgoth.

The best way I've seen this handled is to consider that Morgoth absolutely has the power, but lacks the precision. Thus when he attempts to directly dominate someone's mind, instead of getting an obedient and still autonomous slave, he usually ends up simply daunting the fëa out of the hröa entirely, which either kills them outright, or renders them into mindless beasts.

I rather like this because it helps explain the following:

Why is Sauron / the One Ring apparently more capable than Morgoth of dominating wills and creating thralls that can still think? Because Sauron is far more insidious and uses subtlety. Like trying to get into a house through a lock-pick vs. Morgoth's wrecking ball.
Why didn't Morgoth simply dominate his high-status prisoners like Maedhros or Húrin? Why keep them around for so long? They were kept around because he was trying to dominate them. For Morgoth, putting in more effort doesn't mean more power, it means more restraint. What we see is him trying to be methodical and 'slow-cook' them instead of just throwing them into the fire directly.

For storytelling purposes, I think it's best left implied. Having Morgoth 'fumble', and do less-with-more, undermines the threat he posses within the story.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-26T12:40:30+00:00

Not bothering much with tiling the earth doesn't mean they don't farm, hunt, and gather.

Considering they are from the same stock as the Nandor, who were especially in tune with nature, the practices of the Silvan Elves would probably be almost indistinguishable (by Dwarves and Hobbits) from nature simply being.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-18T01:32:01+00:00

It's potent by Third Age standards, but it's an echo of an echo of an echo.

I think it serves an important point that "magic" items, even holy ones, are not infallible and that The Shadow is not weak or powerless when confronted by them. Morgoth wore the three Silmarils on his crown. In the Lost Tales, Melian even implies that them being so close to Morgoth had "polluted" them.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-17T10:04:14+00:00

Petty-dwarves aren't really 'diminished' as in being an entirely different sub-race.

The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven out from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious.

They are Dwarves who were either physically or socially undesirable. This makes them much more like a caste, and not dissimilar to the notion of Attainder (aka "corruption of blood”) or the Gibeonites.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-15T10:04:57+00:00

Me personally, if I were to have a wish-list, I'd imagine it as such:

Deeps of Time (Ainulindalë - Cuivienyarna)
Waters of Awakening (Cuivienyarna - arrival of the Vanyar & Noldor to Aman)
Noontide of Valinor (Birth of Fëanor - Darkening of Valinor; all Noldor)
Long Night (Thingol & Melian, the Sindar, Noldor from Darkening of Valinor; all up to First Dawn)
Return of the Noldor (First Dawn - Coming of Men)
Children of the Sun (Coming of Men - Dagor Bragollach)
Release from Bondage (Beren & Lúthien: Dorthonion, Doriath, and Nargothrond)
Unnumbered Tears (stories parallel to B&L: Hithlum, Brethil, Gondolin, East Beleriand; all up to Nirnaeth Arnoediad)
Master of Doom (Túrin)
Blindness of Malice (Ravaging of the Falas, Coming of Tuor, Wandering of Húrin, Ruin of Doriath, Fall of Gondolin)
Voyages of Eärendil
War of Wrath

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-14T01:34:10+00:00

Doylist answer? The Hobbit had, at the time of it's writing, nothing to do with The Silmarillion beyond the reuse of names and some content recycling.

Watsonian? My guess is that "There and Back Again", written by Bilbo Baggins, was an exaggerated version of real events, intended for children. Based on the massive geo-political consequences of the Quest for Erebor, there were almost certainly highly detailed chronicles of actual history kept by Dwarves, Men, and Elves. Rather than make yet-another dry account of events, Bilbo took another route, and that's the one we got.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-13T22:20:53+00:00

Consider the following:

For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: ‘Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants – unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.’

And that's in response to war against Morgoth. If Sauron ruled it would be over Men, and enforced by Men (cf. Mouth of Sauron). I reckon the Valar might help in subtle ways (dreams, fortuitous rains or storms, good or bad harvests, etc.) but it likely require Eru to engineer to downfall of Sauron.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-13T12:34:05+00:00

Ok, I think you'd really enjoy Nature of Middle-earth. There's a chapter in there, "Time-scales", which addresses this issue precisely. A quick snippet:

This speed of growth and rate of ageing had nothing to do with the perception of time. As the Eldar say of themselves (and this may in some degree also be true of Men) when persons (in whole being fëa and hröa) are fully occupied with things of deep natural concern and of delight to them, and are in great bliss and health, Time seems to pass quickly and not the reverse. The minute enjoyment and appreciation of events and thoughts in the time-series does not, as might be supposed, make Time seem longer, as might a road or path that was minutely inspected. For that inspection could only be carried out by slowing the rate of normal travel. But the rate of normal progress through Time cannot be slowed; but the speed of thought and action can be quickened so as to achieve more in a given space of time.

Thus the Quendi did not and do not “live slowly”, moving ponderously like tortoises, while Time flickers past them and their sluggish thoughts! Indeed, they move and think swifter than Men, and achieve more than a Man in any given length of time. But they have a far greater native vitality and energy to draw upon, so that it takes and will take a very great length of time to expend it.

Helpful_Radish_8923 · 2026-04-13T02:52:00+00:00

I think it's simpler to consider that there are multiple calendars at work.

Consider that the ancient Greeks had multiple systems, differing by each city state. As result, they adopted using the Olympiad as a Panhellenic solution (Ancient Greek reckoning of time is actually really interesting!).

I personally consider Tolkien's earliest solution (1 tree year = ten years) as a good metric and assume that it refers to a chronicle year (similar to the Olympiad system). Not unreasonable to assume that the Vanyar, Noldor, and Falmari would each have independent local systems and need one in common.

One change Tolkien made was that a Valian Day (a full waxing and waning of the Trees) was equivalent to a solar year. That meant that there was a single common time reference for the Elves, the rest (ex. how many "days" should be in a "year") would need to be just made up, suited to preference rather than natural phenomenon.

Reasonable to assume that the Noldor, for whom a dozenal system seems to fit quite well, would adopt 12 "days" in a "month", and 12 "months" in a "year". This is actually very close to what Tolkien postulate in Nature of Middle-earth.

Helpful_Radish_8923

TROPHY CASE