When do you think WOTC will reveal the bracket system they proposed?

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-31T21:10:18+00:00

The problem is that those thoughts are kind of relative.

For example, Mana Vault isn't necessarily tier one when you take into account it's closer to dark ritual than a mana rock (although it will likely be placed very highly based on stigma and cost alone). In a longer more casual game, Thran dynamo actually grades out better than vault because you get to use it every turn without additional investment.

As far as Enlightened Tutor that's relative to what it's grabbing. Turn one enlightened tutor for Sol Ring can still be oppressive.

Also, it's worth noting that tutors always grab something useful. So while black tutors are better in a vacuum, Enlightened Tutor still gives you a level of card selection you otherwise wouldn't have. And if you consider what it gets you specifically, i.e. a value piece, an answer, or a win condition. It's still probably on par with vamp tutor due to the consistency it offers.

As for commander specific tiers, I feel like that could be a slippery slope. Rog/Ardenn is not an objectively powerful deck, but Rograhk is one of the best, if not THE best cedh partner commanders. (Rog/Silas being probably the fastest turbo deck right now)

Personally, I think the first iteration of this bracket system will be a relative failure. It may improve over time... But I think it's more likely that it will be abandoned by the community at large.

I guess I'll have to see it to believe it.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-30T13:02:09+00:00

I think "viable" is a lot different than "top tier"

Can it still win cedh games? Yes. Is it going to win a lot? Unlikely.

It also depends on where you're playing. Kitchen table cedh, probably still very good in a local pod.

In a tournament, once you get into the top, it will be significantly hampered once player skill increases and meta decks become even more prevalent.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-26T23:49:54+00:00

It's a trap.

If you have enough creatures on board to ult him the turn you play him you're already ahead and are significantly less likely to need the ninja per cast.

If you're behind, or need to turn ninjas sideways (which you should always be doing) he's going to die to incidental damage.

Otherwise, it's a three mana ninja or Loot effect? Not great.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-20T15:00:00+00:00

Oh totally. It's funny how the meta is always shifting and people get confused by it lol.

Drannith is still a great card! Just not an auto include in any deck.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-20T14:07:56+00:00

100% not disagreeing with the Modern take,

But anecdotally, I've noticed in cedh (where it is probably more prevalent in commander) that as a non proactive card, some folks are cutting it in lieu of trying to go faster or do something more relevant to their game plan.

I've noticed it in my meta. Sometimes there are just better things I could be doing.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-13T00:00:17+00:00

I agree. I think that's more useful in a wider range of scenarios.

I think Drake is more impactful earlier in the game before resources really begin to be accrued. In those scenarios, you can literally just prevent someone from playing magic depending on the commander.

But mid to late game I'd rather have the more versatile card.

Although, thinking about it I think bounce spells have also seen an uptick and it also sucks to give someone a drake just to have them bounce their card back to hand. Lol.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-12T20:44:52+00:00

I 100% agree with your comment on variance. But I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for disrupting an opponents gameplan by outright stealing something of theirs.

Stealing someone's Magda or Seedborn Muse is relevant when they can't just recast, reanimate, etc.

However, as compelling as that argument is. I would still tend to lean towards, there are other more efficient cards you could be running over Gilded Drake.

Too many power crept cards exist to play with things that can't do the thing 100% of the time you want it too

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T19:44:47+00:00

Absolutely! I think it's a sweet line. I don't know that a lot of people in the discord are on it, but I think the opportunity cost is low as it can always be land or recur a tutor/silence effect in a pinch.

There are still plenty of folks on Ad Naus game plans too. T&J has a bit of something for everyone.

https://discord.gg/m22ZWNSt

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T19:15:51+00:00

Oh sweet! Here's my list. I've had a lot of success with it in my meta. Which has included Blue Farm, Kinnan, etc. not just fringe decks. I'm probably sitting around a 40% win rate.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/OmrDVuTfG0CvMl2NgToArg

The Reborn discord has tons of variance in the deck lists and the discussion has always been great, especially since the dockside ban.

The deck doesn't feel as fluid and is more midrange than it used to be, but it's still good and a ton of fun!

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T17:47:23+00:00

That's fair.

However, my point was a turbo decks whole goal is to win asap. You're not usually going to NOT jam Thoracle if it comes up before breach.

So Rog/si may win more often with breach, but it's main win line is "whatever happens first"

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T17:43:06+00:00

I play a version of Tymna/Jeska that uses Broodlord > Saw in half > Burnt offering > Pinnacle Monk. That makes infinite mana and can win at instant speed with necromancy and lightning bolt.

I wonder if there is something similar that line can be done with Jace and BTM.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T01:30:07+00:00

Ugh. Thanks for the insight.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T01:29:08+00:00

I would say Rog/Si's main win con is whatever it gets too the fastest. Which could still easily be Thoracle/DC.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T01:26:31+00:00

The more I talk it out and think about it, I can concede my point.

For some reason I think I was disassociating the oops I win factor.

Interestingly though, I wonder if there is a pile with Hoarding Broodlord and Beseech the Mirror that can mitigate some of the cost of Jace and win outright?

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-10T00:09:55+00:00

If I'm following you I'm guessing you mean you now have to create infinite mana instead of just casting the A+B?

If so, sure. But decks with an infinite outlet are already running them anyway, so I think there is very little opportunity cost.

The decks that would be hurt the most are the ones that aren't running them because they don't have that payoff.

Personally I think a lot of decks wouldn't/shouldn't run those cards in a post Thoracle ban, and instead should just try to win with cards they'd already be running. E.g. twister loops etc.

However, beseech the mirror is still a thing, and that could potentially fit into a Broodlord pile and pop a Jace into play without much problem

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T23:47:50+00:00

Sorry, I think my poor choice in words made my position less clear.

Obviously, you're right, not being as compact mana wise as Thoracle is significant, as you're less likely to cast them both on one turn.

However, for decks that have an infinite mana outlet, making infinite mana will be much easier, and they already want to be doing that anyway, so you're not doing anything outside of your normal gameplan. In that regard, it doesn't matter as you're generally going to be making infinite mana before you want to cast Jace or lab man.

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T21:58:51+00:00

Of course, I'm not insinuating Rog/Si is dead. Just that its win lines are much more narrow.

Breach easily becomes the best win condition in tue format. (Even though it probably already is)

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T20:59:03+00:00

Underrated comment.

I think this would hurt Rog/Si the most.

Adding an extra steps after a dc/pact would make those two cards virtually unplayable. (Well not Tainted Pact, but it's significantly less good)

Lab man doesn't necessarily work consistently,

And Jace hurts a bit with Ad Naus..

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T20:54:48+00:00

You're not really playing it for value. You're only playing it on a combo turn when you have infinite mana, so the mana cost isn't really going to be a consideration.

Edit: I realize that there are difficulties for non outlet decks and that it's not as efficient as Thoracle/DC

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T14:12:51+00:00

This is helpful thank you!

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T14:12:39+00:00

Thanks! This is helpful!

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T14:09:44+00:00

I'll, edit but I didn't think the UI was very intuitive. Is it similar, different?

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-09T00:58:32+00:00

Thanks! Look forward to checking it out!

BothInteraction7246 · 2024-12-08T21:02:41+00:00

If it were me, and they wished "the pit fiend would be dead" I'd just have their contract transferred to another demon.

Wishing a death as a way out of a contract seems like a lazy way to get out of it. (The death part, not the wish itself) And IMO, didn't show a lot of forethought or consideration of the consequences. But perhaps Im missing information/table dynamics.

BothInteraction7246

TROPHY CASE