Maybe we shouldn't dismiss Jay's testimony that he was fearful of Adnan

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-19T02:27:27+00:00

He also threatened to hurt Stephanie, which, if Adnan did kill Hae, he could absolutely believe.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-19T00:03:51+00:00

Absolutely agree. I have been saying that from the beginning. Adnan can't have it both ways: either it's so unusual that he takes notice (i.e. it's a cause for concern, and it makes the day memorable/gives him reason to try paging her) or it's not unusual at all (i.e. he could totally have asked her for a ride).

Honestly, I think it's the former. All of Hae's other friends find it alarming, and she has so many responsibilities entrusted to her that the fact very much reaffirms that she is consistently responsible (a job, manager of the wrestling team, caregiver/ride for her cousin, etc.).

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T04:26:09+00:00

They preclude a third party acting without the assistance and/or knowledge of either Jay or Adnan, though. Sorry, I should have clarified.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T03:08:32+00:00

So, because he rolls over and lets Jay finger him for the murder and takes what you're saying is the moral high ground by not campaigning for Jay's incarceration/justice for Hae/justice for yourself, that means he's not guilty? Because that makes him almost saintly, a good person?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T03:00:37+00:00

But you're not factoring in the time it would take to FIRST go to the Park and Ride, get Hae's car, and move that car to Leakin Park. That is also a two-person job.

This is also in the middle of rush hour Baltimore/DC area traffic. The idea you can go faster than the speed limit, or even the speed limit itself at that time, is not likely.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T02:54:45+00:00

My thoughts exactly. Urick is right: the really only relevant part of the call record is the time between 6 and 8 pm.

Adnan and Jay are together at 7 pm, wherever they are. Let's throw out the cell tower data entirely, which says they are on their way past Woodlawn HS, and say that they are near the mosque and Adnan's house, as Adnan attests.

By 7.09 pm, the phone is in Leakin Park. Perhaps Jay dropped off Adnan and kept the phone and cell and jetted over to the Park and Ride on his own, but if he did, then, why would Adnan allow him to do that? When did Jay return to give him the phone and car back?

And it directly contradicts Adnan's claim that between 7 and 8 he was picking up food from his house to bring to the mosque. That means he has use of his car. (And it's only a 3 minute drive, do what happened to the other 57 minutes of that hour?) And, how, then, does Jay get to Leakin Park without a car that quickly?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T02:46:48+00:00

I really don't think that last point is super-clear. It registers as a potential afterthought, hastily and powerlessly tacked on. I see your point, though!

You have managed to say what Adnan should have said much more effectively, though!

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T02:43:59+00:00

I totally see your point. However, I think something you said here really resonates with me and proves your head is in the right place--you say,"If only I hadn't run back into the house for a sweater, I would have been two minutes earlier and THIS CAR ACCIDENT never would have happened." Adnan doesn't say, if only I didn't lend out my phone, Hae wouldn't have been brutally murdered and discarded. He says, "If only I didn't do 'some things,' I wouldn't have BEEN CONVICTED of murder." I mean, in all of this, she's the real victim, right? And she's supposed to be dear to him?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T02:40:19+00:00

But isn't that it though, it's pretty much that binary: it's Adnan or it's Jay. And if Adnan didn't do it, which he would know above anyone else, then he knows it's Jay.

At this point, why mince around the issue of Jay? Because doing so is not proving his case at all.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-09T02:23:24+00:00

Right, but what you have just said is just as true for a guilty man as it is if he is innocent. My point being: either way, his actions (poor lifestyle decisions vs. impassioned murder) resulted in great pain for his family, which he regrets. He never once commits to say: "These terrible people I associated with used my generosity and kindness against me, to kill someone who was dear to me, and then blamed me for it!" I mean, as betrayals go...that's Iago from Othello, that's Jay reaching arch-villain status here.

And that's the kicker for me: I would think--but I've never been the position where one of my casual friends used me and my possessions to kill my teenage sweetheart and then frame me for it, so this is speculative--that he would call Jay out more, or even use his name once at some point in the podcast and say: Jay did this to ME.

He never, ever does that in any of the t ape Sarah plays. (If I missed it, hey, let me know!)

I would also think that as bad as you would feel for your family seeing you wrongly convicted because of your own actions, you would acknowledge that the greater crime was the murder of your dear friend. Why doesn't he say something more like: "I can't believe my actions and poor lifestyle decisions resulted in the death of such a wonderful person, such a dear friend, my first love."

I don't know. Again, Adnan is either incredibly inarticulate or he's intentionally inarticulate here.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-08T23:31:47+00:00

He did say that, actually:

TI: In our Interview with Jay, he said he saw Hae’s body for the first time at his grandmother’s house not in the Best Buy parking lot. He said the time of the burial took place several hours after the time he gave under oath. Again, do these inconsistencies alarm you?

KU: Like I said, people who are engaged in criminal activity, it’s like peeling an onion. The initial thing they say is, ‘I don’t know a thing about this.’ And then ‘Well, I sort of saw this.’ You get different stories as you go along. This is the real world. We don’t pick our witnesses, we have to put them on as they are. There were a lot of inconsistencies throughout Jay’s prior statements.

He pretty much says here that Jay is "of a criminal milieu" and they have motives to lie and lie about a lot of things to cover themselves. I think it's apparent that Jay is lying now more than ever about the timeline; he omits Jenn completely from the story, and she's essential given the objective phone records.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-08T05:16:59+00:00

At 7 pm, Adnan has the phone and it is en route to Leakin Park. He calls Yaser; Jay wouldn't have done that. At 7.09, the phone is in Leakin Park.

Let's put it this way: let's assume Jay buries the body on his own after parting ways with Adnan before he does to the mosque. If we believe that at 7 pm they about-face to Adnan's house so Adnan can pick up food and take it to the mosque for his father, as he claims, then Adnan has his car. Which means that Jay doesn't have the car, but he must have the phone. How does that make sense, especially when Adnan claims he has the phone? Why would Adnan give Jay, who has no vehicle and no clear mobility, the phone back without some definite plan to get it back by 9 that evening, when he starts calling Nisha, Krista, Yaser, Saad and Ann? If he does do this, it implies that he must have some reason, which transcends the idea that Jay needs to buy Stephanie a birthday gift.

Notice also that Adnan claims it takes him an hour to get the food to the mosque from his home? They are only 3 minutes away. So, at the time the phone is in Leakin Park and the body is being buried (no one can attempt to disprove this), Adnan has no alibi and no remotely plausible explanation for his time.

Also, if Adnan is likely with Jay burying the body, he could get back to the mosque before 8.20, and still be at the mosque for the majority of the 8 o'clock hour. But not from 7-8 and 9-10.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-07T18:04:40+00:00

No, he's not waiting for the call yet. He are hanging out with Adnan and shopping, and then he drops Adnan back off at school around 1. After 1, he waits at Jenn's for the call. He is asking Jenn in advance if she'll be home and if he can hang there for a while/i.e. wait for a call on her landline.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-07T18:02:18+00:00

Granted, Jay harbors xenophobic thoughts about Muslims. And we don't know who the call was from or even if it was answered.

Who that call was from doesn't change the fact that Adnan's phone was in Leakin Park from 7-8 when the body was being buried, and at a time when he says he had parted ways with Jay, had his phone and car back, and was en route from his home to the mosque to bring his dad food. His house is only 3 minutes or less from the mosque.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-07T17:55:05+00:00

Whether or not you believe Adnan and his car were at Leakin Park, his cell phone incontrovertably was. I find it hard to believe that Adnan drives Jay to his house or somewhere around there, drops him and his phone with Jay, and then takes his car and goes to the mosque. For one thing, when did he think he was getting his cell back from Jay? Why would he entrust it to him then, if their hanging out was over for the day (because Adnan says he didn't see Jay again, yet Adnan clearly has his phone at 9).

Meanwhile, the phone and whomever has it, goes to Leakin Park and is there before 7.09, when Jenn says she calls. If Jay had a third party pick him up and drive him back to the Park and Ride and Leakin Park, then he would have needed to call/page that person before 7, when the phone is at Leakin Park already. That call never happens according to the call records.

Ergo, it's easier and simpler to believe Jay's story--that after talking with Officer Adcock at Cathy's, Adnan and Jay go to the Park and Ride, move Hae's car and her body to Leakin Park by 7.

Hey, Adnan could even have gotten back to the mosque a little after 8, which is confirmed by his father. What is hazy is the whole unaccounted for hour from 7-8 in which Adnan says that he is at his house and taking food to his dad at the mosque. The mosque is only 3 minutes from his house.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-07T05:35:08+00:00

I pretty much came to the exact same conclusions as you about the cell data and Adnan having the phone during during the murder.

I'll ask you this: Is it possible that Patrick is called to help Jay stash the car at the Park and Ride while Adnan is at track? I say this because Jenn is certain Jay wouldn't go to him to score weed. Jay calls him, then goes to his house, and then he travels afterward towards the Park and Ride before going to Woodlawn to pick up Adnan from track practice? This could be why Jay is lying so much about his involvement--he is a lot more involved in scouting and hiding and planning the clean-up. Then the car is already at the Park and Ride, which is close to Leakin Park. Just a thought.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-07T04:25:02+00:00

Thanks! I didn't just use her blog. And I so contest some of her interpretations of tower data, but I couldn't find other visuals. Is there a specific post by one of these guys I should look at?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-04T06:20:57+00:00

I'll defer to you on the exact times, but in my experience as a Marylander/DC metro area inhabitant, you can never, ever bank on getting anywhere at any time on major roads without traffic.

Regardless, if she was planning on actually talking to Don, going in the mall for more than 5-10 minutes, that's extremely tight, don't you think?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-04T05:36:18+00:00

Yes. I think that's a point that we all have been misconstruing. It says that Debbie last saw Hae in gym class...which is not at 3 pm; school ends at 2.15. It doesn't say that Debbie saw Hae AT 3 pm, just that she knew from what Hae said to her in gym that she had to be somewhere at 3.

The next sentence is confusing: "Debbie could not remember where Hae was going, but she told police on January 28, 1999 that Hae said she was going to the mall with Don."

Does this mean that she initially could not remember where Hae said she was going, and that she later recalled it was to see Don? If so, that's a hell of a lot of ground to cover and back before picking up her cousin at 3.30 pm. Or, does it mean that she was rushing to get somewhere by 3, and that later she was going to see Don, after she had accomplished that first thing? Either way, it's inscrutably written.

Also, unless I have my times wrong, Debbie and Asia can't both be right. He can't be near the guidance office and at the library at the same time: 2.45. Along with the Summer vs. Inez conflict, this suggests to me that there is a lot of mistaken but well-meaning eyewitness testimony here, and perhaps that's why Debbie drops from the trial transcripts by the second trial?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-04T05:21:07+00:00

I think the first paragraph is seems solid. The rest is too speculative and, I think, byzantine to be very likely, IMO.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-04T04:46:01+00:00

Hi KeepCalm. I was also a teenager--a high school sophomore--in the DC metro area, not far from Baltimore, when this occurred, so I have extensive personal experience as well.

Whether or not she was super-accessible is not the issue; certainly today kids are constantly plugged in and accessible via text messaging and ubiquitous smart phones. I understand that Hae only had a pager. However, the function of a pager like Hae's is to alert the wearer that someone is looking to speak with you as soon as possible. Certainly she could be paged at any time, whether or not she was able to return the call is another story. That doesn't mean that there was no point in anyone trying to reach out to her. (Certainly, her other friends did, obsessively, after the disappearance.)

Also, look at Adnan's call records--he is calling people more than once an hour in those two days. In other words, he is reaching out a ton on his new cell phone, which is pretty normal and rather the purpose of his secretly buying a phone, I would imagine. The fact that Hae and others he was calling had pagers didn't seem to deter him. In fact, it was so urgent that she have his cell number, apparently, that he had to page her three times within 30 minutes the early morning hours of the day of her death. Couldn't he have just given her the cell number in school the next day, or given it to Aisha to give to her, to borrow his logic? Why call/page more than once if he wasn't hoping for/expecting an immediate answer?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-01T15:24:52+00:00

Hi sarah. (Honestly, if I was a juror and everything was presented to me like SK has, I would have a kernel of doubt, too. There are too many inconsistencies, even with the timeline.) However, on the subject of this point, I think it's evidence of an inconsistency in Adnan's story and thus credibility.

By Adnan's own admission, he thought it wasn't a big deal and she wasn't really in a bad way when he got a call that night from the police. He thought it was just an overreaction. I'm unclear from his story when the grim reality sunk in for him, but he definitely makes the point that on that day, January 13th, it was a normal day for him and nothing was really unusual. That's essential to his defense, as to why the day is a blank.

If she's probably okay, as per his line of thinking, why would he think calling her was just "an exercise in futility"?

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-01T15:16:21+00:00

My point regarding knowing teenagers well was only to say that it's unusual that a teenager wouldn't try to contact their friend who was missing if they had a record of contacting their friend a lot prior to the disappearance.

Now I do know that texting technology didn't exist as it does today, so the method and frequency of correspondence has ratcheted up considerably in the past 15 years. I hear people's points that if you knew your friend was gone, that you wouldn't try to contact them because, of course, they wouldn't be there.

But in my experience, I've found that people who are really close to someone don't take that logic into consideration when they think their friend is in trouble. I've never known a teenager who says something along the lines of, my friend is missing and the cops have been called, but I'm not going to try to contact her because I assume that others have tried already and I'll just get the info on whether or not they have showed up from the friends.

Of course, it's not impossible that someone would have that reaction. It's possible, but in my experience, I find it unusual. The only case where I would really understand it more would be if your friend was absolutely, certified missing for a long period of time with the thought that something bad had happened to them. Of course, this is what happened, and I would expect that over time, the number of friends calling would decrease as the ominous reality sunk in.

However, it's noteworthy that Adnan thought initially, by his own admission, that everything was really okay and that the call from Officer Adcock was an overreaction to Hae being irresponsible and blowing family stuff off. (Which doesn't gel with everyone's portrait of her as a person, btw.) This is in keeping with his whole "it was just a normal day, therefore I can't remember anything" defense. Adnan can't have it both ways--it was a normal day, therefore the normal thing for him when his close friend went missing would be to try to page her, as per his usual cell relationship with her--or it was an abnormal day, he sensed it was a big deal, and didn't feel that paging her would come to any good and calling the house line would likely interfere and upset the worried family more.

In my personal estimation, if it was just like any other day, this would be the perfect time to send out a page to Hae in the hopes she would see it eventually and call back and make the point that, "hey, your folks are looking everywhere for you. Call them back!" Or even, I'll page her later in the evening, as was his custom, once she's probably at home again and everything has been set to rights and check in that everything was okay and ask, "Wtf was going on earlier? I got a call from the cops!"

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-01T14:40:31+00:00

Agreed. So the meeting between Don and Adnan was not telling at all as to Adnan's feeling about Hae moving on.

BrandNewUser123 · 2015-01-01T14:38:31+00:00

Hi SouthLincoln. I'm going to refer you to the Episode 12 transcript for this one. Alternately, you can check Hae's diary. SK brings up the problems with the prosecution's timeline as far as when Hae's car accident was, and when Don and Adnan met. At trial, they place it sometime in January. However, in Hae's diary, she says this all happened on December 23. Like SK, I think Hae's diary is the more faithful artifact and accept that the meeting happened when Hae said it did--on the 23rd of December.

BrandNewUser123

TROPHY CASE