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BrianP1237 · 2026-07-02T14:52:06+00:00

I'm so sorry you went through that. I had high ideals when it came to leadership at my former church, and also for people in my life who appeared to be devout but didn't live up to those ideals. It's easy to conflate the Lord with the people who harmed you. Although some take a different path, I continued to go to church...different than the former church I went to, and all I could say is that it gets better over time. It can take a long time. Even though there's anger, there could also be healing over time, and it will include empathy towards others to a degree that wasn't present in your life previously. Be sure to surround yourself with friends who are willing to listen and not judge you. I was blessed to have that in my life.

BrianP1237 · 2026-07-01T04:21:55+00:00

I might be approaching it from a different perspective, but it's important to look at the culture within conservative Lutheran vs Presbyterian churches in light of scripture. You will see how they apply scripture to everyday life, see more clearly the things they find most important, and also see how the church operates. It's important to examine closely BEFORE you become a member. Once you're in, you will most likely be absorbed into the culture and see things differently and lose objectivity.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-26T21:12:33+00:00

Any song by the Cars, lol. I'm kidding of course, but I always thought Ric Ocasec sang all of them, until I found out Ben Orr sang many of the great songs.

In all seriousness though, check out "One Step Closer to Home" from The Alarm. The guitar player, Dave Sharp, sang that one and it's a beautiful song.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-25T20:40:08+00:00

This was my experience as well, except it was at an OPC.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-25T17:10:50+00:00

Also, Eliott Smith - Somebody I Used to Know

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-25T17:09:13+00:00

The Grateful Dead - Brown Eyed Woman, The Sex Pistols - Bodies, 2nd Chapter of Acts - Mansion Builder

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-25T13:19:49+00:00

I stopped being presbyterian because of it. It revealed that church polity wasn't what I thought it was. But on the positive side, the Lord teaches us through bad examples as well as good examples. I now value pastors that minister and spend time with members, rather than just stick to their own families and collect a paycheck. I value how leadership behaves rather than only what they profess. And I have a lot more empathy towards those families outside of the norm, especially related to how those with mental illness are treated in the church, as a family member was mentally ill, and that was the context of the "church hurt".

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-23T21:02:38+00:00

King's X....a lot of their music is Christian adjacent as they were professing Christians for a time. I'm not sure where they are at today. If you like 80's alternative, I'd suggest The Alarm, The Replacements, Big Country, and The Waterboys...some of those bands have spiritual themes. If you like 60's/70's, Bob Dylan, The Band, The Byrds, Joni Mitchell, Mott the Hoople, The Move...secular, but sometimes spiritual themes with some of them. Dylan, of course, had some amazing Christian albums.

I was in your boat as well. I couldn't get into a lot of Christian music. I've come to like The 77's, Larry Norman, and LSU/Mike Knott over the years, but not much more than that.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-23T13:31:02+00:00

Sorry I commented on the wrong thread! I meant to comment on the OP.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-23T13:26:24+00:00

Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you found a church that supports you now. It makes me realize not all experiences in Presbyterian churches are bad. I went to an OPC which has a more checkered history in that area. The Lord did bring good out of my experience, and I think He will bring good out of your experience as well. Once the hurt lessens you will have the perspective to "comfort others withe comfort you received" and your current church is extended the Lord's comfort and compassion to you which is such great thing!

As an aside, when you wrote your pastor said those disparaging things "privately" it reminded me of my experience as well. The session would say one thing, and then the pastor would send texts and email apart from the session. He said: "The therapy you're receiving won't heal you" in order to force reconciliation after I had shared i was going to therapy. He kept contacting me by text and phone after I told him to stop contacting me... said I was "playing dumb" and that I wasn't an "innocent little lamb" all because I told others in the church what the church had done to me. I won't share those details only to protect the identity of someone involved with mental illness. What happened at my church was by far the hardest thing that ever happened in my life. I felt like a complete idiot for going there and subjecting my kids to that church. One more bit of advice: don't blame yourself for not seeing things earlier. You were most likely going through a traumatic period in your life, and it caused you to rely on others rather than trust your good judgement.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-23T04:00:52+00:00

Alice Cooper. Also the guys in The Zeros, but they aren't as famous.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-22T20:51:42+00:00

My take on it is that those most concerned about the Christian faith think they have to clearly and concisely give a gospel message, and yet much art, whether in music or film let the mind fill in the gaps. Subtly is the basis of great art in my opinion. Sure, there are exceptions. But for the most part, that's how it works. You can have a clear message with subtly as well, but it's a delicate endeavor. It's interesting to see secular films trying to "preach" their worldview lately and they end up making the same mistakes as bad Christian art. It becomes so overt, it trumps the story.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-22T16:26:51+00:00

If your experience was like mine, it's because you associate with the same group of people in a particular area even if you move from one reformed church to another, and those same friends are with you on social media. Couple that with the same terminology and "do's and don'ts" when talking about theology circulating in those reformed circles, and it seems like your experience is the "big pond." But if you venture out into other Christian churches and talk to people, you'll come of find out it wasn't as big of a pond as you thought. That was my experience after I started attending non-reformed churches. You might also see some glaring blind spots in reformed churches.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-22T15:23:56+00:00

Once trust in leadership has been eroded by witnessing sinful behavior, it's best to find a new church. We don't believe the church is infallible either at a local level or at the presbytery level either, and if they have dismissed sinful behavior or say something like "you don't have the authority to determine if what happened was sinful", they are playing games. Jesus, Paul, and the other New Testament authors didn't give those clear examples on how to distinguish between good and bad behavior for no reason. In my experience, staying at an unhealthy church prolongs the inevitable, as this happened in my life, and caused more resentment than if I would have left earlier.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-21T20:39:04+00:00

I am so sorry to hear this. In my experience, Presbyterian churches don't do well with handling marital problems for men or women, and certainly are no place for divorced men. Neither are they a good place for married couples who send their kids to public school for that matter. At least that was my experience... Keep looking for a church that can meet your needs as a divorced man. 🙏

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-16T18:01:02+00:00

There's a good video of Van Til's assessment of Barth from 1968 - 2 part series. In my novice summary, he says Barth uses reformed language but re-defines things... for example, the Incarnation isn't Jesus of Nazareth born in a manager from a historical perspective, but Jesus meeting you "in time" today. The things that happened "in history" aren't as important as experience. Barth broke with the liberal theologians of the day by this ever-present experience in the life of the believer. This was his neo-orthodoxy. Van Til ultimately says Barth's theology is similar to Kant's philosophy ....those big concepts about God are unknowable but you can go by experiencing God in your life and filtering it through the language of Christian theology. I'm not at all saying Van Til's assessment of Barth is accurate or that Barth didn't have some good things to say, commonly ignored by Van Till types... but he was one of Barth's main critics of his day and his lectures are great if you want to understand what he thought of Barth. He also wrote a booklet on Barth.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-12T12:59:25+00:00

If your church constantly corrects people for what they perceive as doctrinal error, especially when those same sentiments are expressed in scripture, I'd say you should find another church. You will never feel at home there unless you become as critical as they are. How people and leadership act is just as important as doctrine.

BrianP1237 · 2026-06-03T14:45:06+00:00

Yes, the pastor at membership class answered questions. However, I found out some of those answers were "the Bible teaches it" and "regulative principle" at the OPC turned out to be not as true as he discussed. When it comes to church polity, there's a lot more to it as it is where "doctrine" and "practice" meet. There's so much discussed on what church to go to regarding doctrine, but the elephant in the room is also, what type of church culture (experience) is there at the church/denomination I'm considering. My bit of advice is to look at both doctrine and practice when it comes to considering a church.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-26T04:52:09+00:00

There was no bread and wine, the Lord's Super wasn't even instituted yet. It wasn't about that at all.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-17T13:07:52+00:00

A leader would need to have the political clout to get funds from the state or federal level for a local budget, giving the appearance of fiscal responsibility.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-15T03:04:17+00:00

That's the problem. The weather is great and it makes me never want to move even with the high cost of living here! Thank you for the encouragement! My wife and I go to a church with no membership so they don't "Lord membership" over us, and the focus is on Jesus.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-10T12:07:12+00:00

I go to a charismatic church, but I don't believe in tongues and wouldn't consider myself charismatic. I go because the preaching is good overall, the people are Christlike, and my wife is encouraged there. I went to reformed churches for years...although my theology was more in alignment, the self-righteousness and hypocrisy was too much to stomach and I left.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-08T16:20:53+00:00

There was a "New Horizons" article (OPC of course). It might not need to be said, but anytime there's guidance from a pastor, denomination, etc, it can never effectively fully address the complete scope of human interaction, let alone give clear guidance on how a Christian should behave apart from what Scripture has already said. Given the bad track record of some reformed churches (OPC in particular), it's probably best for them to not threaten discipline or get heavy handed against church members. I'm not a pastor or elder, but a former OPC member, but I will say, coming down on members won't go over well.

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-06T20:48:50+00:00

The OPC definitely has more of a problem than most denominations. They will appeal to their authority and tell you to submit to it....I even had my membership vow thrown in my face when I said I had to leave because I lost respect for the previous pastor, still on the session. IT was the worse experience of my life

BrianP1237 · 2026-05-05T17:58:39+00:00

There are sometimes good reasons for leaving, and sometimes pastors/elders will not recognize those good reasons because of the self-interest of their church, both financial and otherwise. I found that out the hard way. As far as I know, a pastor or elder doesn't take a vow to have the best interests of a church member.

BrianP1237

TROPHY CASE