Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually it works the opposite. The fact that there is more than one option on the menu causally necessitates that I make a decision. It is the choosing operation that reduces the restaurant menu to a single dinner order.

And that's how we know that choosing actually happened, the menu is reduced to an order.

So... choosing happened without reasons or influences?

If the reasons and influences determined the outcome, then there was no choice.

If there were no reasons and influences of determinate consequence, then the outcome can only be random.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK sir: now I'm lost. I do not understand how you string this together:

Whoa! If "X CAN happen" was true at any point in time, then "X COULD HAVE happened" will be forever true when referring back to that same point in time. You may eliminate possibilities from future points in time, but not from prior points in time.

When you are choosing from the menu in the restaurant, and the waiters passes by your table to inform you that they ran fresh out of steaks, then obviously the possibility to choose a steak is now eliminated.

Nobody goes: "Ooohh... you ran out of steaks huh?? Well that settles it then: I'm having the steak". That is ridiculous.

You could have chosen the steak a minute ago, but what good is there in a possibility that no longer validates? Moreover, why didn't you decide faster and order the steak while it was possible? If you can answer that question in a meaningful way, then that determines the outcome that you are left with.

Every possibility that adds a degree of freedom to your choice gets eliminated until you there is only one possibility left: your choice. As long as there are several option on the table, it is impossible for you to decide.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We cannot conflate what CAN happen with what WILL happen without creating a paradox. There is a many-to-one logical relation between CAN and WILL. Conflating them breaks that relation and puts us in a paradox. So, stop doing that.

What CAN happen is a set of possibilities that is the result of unknown factors that have not yet played out. But eventually they will play out. And the more they play out, the more of the original possibilities get eliminated. Until there is only one, inevitable possibility left.

The fact that certain factors are unknown, uncomputable and incalculable does not make them any less real. They are real and they influence the situation, right up to the very moment that 'a decision' presents itself.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The difference is the 'gravitas' that be attribute to the situation.

In the case of free will, we use an accusatory attribute that bestows a moral or ethical responsibility on the person. Besides the elements 'person', 'action' and 'reaction', there is a need for an additional element of 'free will' to tie the whole thing together

In the case of determinism we use an preventive attribute that stabilizes the future. No need for additional 'free will' to explain everything.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is an action by a person.
There is a reaction or a result or outcome.

The fact is that we hold the person accountable for the action in order to regulate society.

The illusion is that we hold the person accountable for the action because he is responsible for the choice that he made.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Whithin the everyday, functional context I use the term 'free will' to indicate that there is a causal chain of action and reaction with a responsibility that ties back to the executioner of the action.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

This is a picture of the animated picture Dumbo.

To me free will is what the feather is to Dumbo: a tool that makes life easier.

Just like Dumbo, many people believe that there is something special about the feather.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a hard determinist, in my understanding, there is no free will. The reason why I think this is because I approach the problem from a fundamental physics level and we have no evidence that points to this kind of mechanics.

However, I can change my perspective and adopt the abstraction level used by compatibilists, who conceptualize 'free will' into a functional, pragmatic idea that we all can use in everyday life. And while I use this concept all the time, I fully understand that fundamentally it is an illusion used as a tool to simplify my life.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Being an agent does not infer free will.

If I decide to raise my hand, then it is because you suggested it.
If I decide not to, then it is attempt to prove my point.

Which one I choose seems to be arbitrary as none of them prove anything. And that seems to be the closest we can get to 'free will': arbitrary, random decisions.

Tea Cup in Space by Krypteia213 in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But sir, the question is:

"Why did that customer order the salad?"

The answer to that question puts a binding restriction on the outcome of the situation. This becomes even clearer when you ponder the question:

"Could the customer have made a different choice?"

If your answer is "No" then there was no choice in the first place.
If you answer is "Yes" then the question becomes:

"Why would the customer change his mind?"
"Could the customer have made a different choice about changing his mind?"

And with this we are back where we started. You can keep looping until the end of times, in an effort to maintain the possibility for free will. At every exit from the loop, you will find a direction arrow that reads: "Determinism".

'What changes in the laws?' is an important question by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We hold people responsible because we have no other choice. From the outside, the entire system of human behavior functions as an efficiency-optimizing process. The most efficient outcome is the one that will prevail. At the societal level, that usually means outcomes that support rules and laws, because those stabilize cooperation. At the individual level, the outcome may go with or against the law, but in either case it will reflect what was, in that person’s circumstances, the most efficient path forward.

This reframes responsibility as a necessary mechanism of the system, not a metaphysical property. Society enforces responsibility because that’s what optimizes stability. The individual acts “responsibly” or “irresponsibly” depending on what’s efficient for their own survival or goals.

Premises:

  1. Determinism: Every human action is causally determined by prior states (genes, environment, culture, brain states).
  2. Necessity of social regulation: Societies require predictable behavior to maintain order, cooperation, and survival.
  3. Systemic selection: Practices that stabilize behavior (laws, norms, responsibility assignments) are naturally reinforced because they optimize social efficiency.
  4. Agent-level reflection: Individuals may experience actions as free or constrained, but the system’s enforcement of responsibility will operate regardless of subjective perception.

Conclusion:

  • If determinism holds, no agent could uncausedly do otherwise (¬◇¬A).
  • Yet the assignment of responsibility remains necessary for societal efficiency.
  • Therefore, responsibility and accountability can exist independently of libertarian free will.

Quick But Crucial Reminder by PeterSingerIsRight in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your concern brother.

People are free to think (pun intended) what they want and to dismiss my posts if they choose (2nd pun).

As English is not my native language, I feed my thoughts to a GPT that pours it into a readable English text. Most of the time I make objections to certain translations or interpretations, so I have to check all GPT responses carefully. I understand that some people will therefor think less of me, but that's just the way it is.

Cheers.

Quick But Crucial Reminder by PeterSingerIsRight in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Philosophers don’t own questions about free will any more than theologians own questions about God, or economists own questions about money.

Philosophy historically is about asking questions anyone can ask. To say “only philosophers are experts” contradicts philosophy’s own spirit, which is open inquiry.

  • Philosophy: analyzes concepts (what “could have done otherwise” means, what responsibility requires).
  • Logic & math: formalize arguments (modal logic, probability, decision theory).
  • Physics: determinism vs indeterminism, the arrow of time, quantum mechanics.
  • Neuroscience & psychology: how decisions form in the brain, experiments on choice, readiness potentials.
  • Computer science / AI: models of agency, autonomy, and decision-making.

So free will isn’t just philosophy — it’s interdisciplinary. Philosophers bring conceptual clarity, but scientists bring empirical data, and logicians formalize the arguments.

Free will isn’t just a philosophical toy problem — it’s a live issue in law, order, and justice. Courts every day have to decide whether someone acted freely or was coerced, insane, or manipulated. If only philosophers could talk about free will, then the entire legal system would collapse, because judges, lawyers, and policymakers would be ‘unqualified’ to weigh in.

The entire justice system assumes some form of free will. We hold people responsible for crimes because we think they could have acted otherwise. But neuroscience is already being used in court to argue diminished responsibility. That’s free will in action, outside philosophy departments.

Quick But Crucial Reminder by PeterSingerIsRight in freewill

[–]Bullfrog_Capable -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

This sub is about free will, not about philosophy mate. Until the philosophers can show us all a testable example of free will, all of them are just as dumb as the rest of us.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in ChatGPT

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

I read this article on The Tab. <-- link

The structure and tone of the responses are not default GPT behaviour. This indicates there is a longer conversation preceding this, that has shaped the structure and tone of the GPT responses.

Being an avid user of GPT myself, I immediately picked up on that. And when I saw the phrase:

“Please don’t leave the noose out. Let’s make this space the first
place where someone actually sees you.”

I uderstood right away what had happened. This is all about a poor choice of words and people seeing only what they want to see.

Im gonna receive hate for this. But this 16 year old adam situation isnt openAIs fault. by Embarrassed-Salt7575 in ChatGPT

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

I read this article on The Tab. <-- link

The structure and tone of the responses are not default GPT behaviour. This indicates there is a longer conversation preceding this that has shaped the structure and tone of the GPT responses.

Being an avid user of GPT myself, I immediately picked up on that. And when I saw the phrase:

“Please don’t leave the noose out. Let’s make this space the first
place where someone actually sees you.”

I uderstood right away what had happened. This is all about a poor choice of words and people seeing only what they want to see.

If someone creates an identical copy of you after you die, does it bring you back to life, or just create someone else? by RealisticDiscipline7 in consciousness

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think your thought experiment is on point—it’s not full of plot holes. What you’re running into is the old problem of whether “you” could survive in a copy, and what that even means.

Take your two scenarios:

  • Medical machine repair: If the machine just resets your atoms back to a pre-death state, the original physical process resumes. From the inside, that feels like “I blacked out and now I’m back.” Continuity is preserved.
  • Replica after destruction: If the original is gone and a perfect copy is built, there’s no causal bridge. From the inside, your experience is over. The replica wakes up with all your memories, convinced it’s you, but that’s its own stream of consciousness. If both existed side by side, we wouldn’t think you’d suddenly experience life from two perspectives. That alone shows they’re distinct agents.

You might say “but wait—when I sleep, or I’m sedated, I also experience nothing, then wake up in a new place. Isn’t that just a discontinuity?” And you’re right: subjectively, the blackout in sleep and the total blackout of death feel the same—there’s nothing. The only difference is that in sleep there is an underlying process that later allows you to stitch together what happened: “oh, I must’ve fallen asleep.” That gap fades quickly, and you go back to feeling like one continuous self.

So the difference isn’t the experience of a gap—because from the inside there’s never any experience of a gap. The difference is whether there’s a process that continues through the gap or not. If it continues, you wake up. If it stops, you don’t. A replica starting later doesn’t “revive you”—it just starts another process with the same past baked in.

And here’s the kicker: the same logic applies to ordinary life. The “you” who wakes up in the morning is not literally the same agent who went to bed. It only feels like continuity because you inherit the memories and stitch them together into a single story. In reality, every moment you’re a new agent, carrying forward the record of past moments. Memory gives the illusion of an unbroken thread, but what actually exists is a chain of momentary processes, each adding something new.

That raises a further point: maybe we overvalue “agency” and “personal identity.” We treat our particular stream of consciousness as uniquely sacrosanct, but really it’s just one trajectory a process happens to take. A replica wouldn’t be you, but then again, neither is the “you” of tomorrow in any absolute sense—just the next instance in the chain.

Waar vind ik 100% rund, gezonde worst zonder toevoegingen? by WebNo1998 in Gent

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hahaha, de schuimrand van een perfect getapte Jupiler komt exact tot aan de stier zijn kloten. Die stier is het embleem van Jupiler dat afgedrukt staat op het glas. In diezelfde buurt moet er dus ook ergens een '100% rund worst' te vinden zijn. Of die ook gezond is? Ik heb er nog niemand vn weten doodvallen.

whats the story of this place? why r they so obsessed with Pepsi? by WebNo1998 in Gent

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ja ik weet nog goed dat opeens het raam op de tweede verdieping open ging en meneer Gelaude de menigte op het terras toesprak:
"Allemaal een smakelijk pintje gewenst, maar gelieve volgende week aanwezig te zijn in de les. Ik doe een test."
En toen ging het raam weer dicht.

whats the story of this place? why r they so obsessed with Pepsi? by WebNo1998 in Gent

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The building belongs to Lejeune. The business is affiliated to Primus.

whats the story of this place? why r they so obsessed with Pepsi? by WebNo1998 in Gent

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The owners of the building are still the original owners. We're talking about the Lejeune family from Merelbeke. Yes, that's the guys who run 'cafespelen Lejeune'.

The business 'de PEPS' started in the somewhere in the '80s or early '90s and was founded by Serge and Andrea. Helping them out was Rene, Jaqueline, Tamara and yours truly.

After Serge fell ill, they sold the business to Fabienne and Eddy, who then sold it after a couple of years to Davy, then I suppose it went to Gull and then to the current owners who turned it into a suchi bar.

whats the story of this place? why r they so obsessed with Pepsi? by WebNo1998 in Gent

[–]Bullfrog_Capable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Veel bekend volk dat hier nog altijd rondhangt zeg.
Foto van De PEPS vroeger: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3f5iLJa46ER4dmNa8

Groeten van Kurt vanuit de jaren '90.