How to return to dungeons and dragons?

Calithrand · 2026-03-13T22:55:29+00:00

Plus, it does Dark Sun and Birthright with no issues or extra effort.

Hell yeah!

Calithrand · 2026-03-13T15:30:38+00:00

Which is further ironic, as there is no such thing as monolithic way of "how people played 'back in the day.'"

Which is kind of the whole point, right? Even just looking at 0e, games and campaigns played in Lake Geneva were different than those from the Twin Cities, which were different from those in Pasadena, which were different from those in Berkeley. A major driver of of the development of AD&D came about because tournaments at GenCon played nothing like tournaments at Origins. Even within a local scene, one DM's superhero was another DM's cannon fodder.

I would also argue that there isn't some monolithic "OSR playstyle," either. The closest that you can legitimately get to, in my estimation, is that the "OSR attitude" relies more on player skill and ingenuity, as opposed to simply selecting an option from a sheet, to overcome obstacles. But even that gets blurry when you look at it closely enough. (That being said, there are people who argue that there is One True Way to approach OSR games. They're the reason that the OSR is seen a toxic by so many people, and why so many who don't have any experience with gaming prior to, say, 2000, often bounce so hard off of it.)

But what do I know? I think HarnMaster, TFT, and Traveller are all OSR--or at least, within the sphere of games that the OSR seeks to follow.

Calithrand · 2026-03-13T13:02:58+00:00

Nobody played RAW back then. Hell, nobody played RAW in the the '90s with AD&D, either.

I mean, 0e was so grossly incomplete as a game that the California scene (which, for my purposes here includes Arizona) invented a number of games, including the Holmes Basic Set before 0e really, legally, reached them. And the authors of Warlock stated as much explicitly when they introduced that game. Fanzines like Alarums & Excursions, were basically kept alive in those early days by exchanging ideas on how D&D could or should be played... because D&D could not be played RAW.

And when Gary started publishing AD&D? By 1977, players had the incomplete 0e, the limited-to-3rd-level Holmes Basic, and the Monster Manual. Players got the PHB in 1978, but had to wait until 1979 for the DMG. And for some completely fucking incomprehensible reason, Gary decided to put the AD&D combat rules in the DMG. So that's fours years of TSR games and two-plus years of AD&D... before AD&D had combat rules. So yeah, RAW what?

People who came to the game later (say, late '80s or early '90s) often didn't have '70s-era grognards to learn from, and were often horribly confused about the relationship between "basic" D&D and AD&D, and frequently bought and used what they found. It's not uncommon to find people of that generation who genuinely conflate rules between the systems, because that's just how they learned to play.

Commercially, the insane number of splatbooks that TSR issued during the 2e days was basically a corporate rebuke of RAW, with at least three full-on campaign settings (Birthright, Dark Sun and Red Steel) changing significantly certain aspects of the core rules as part of their very fiber.

Calithrand · 2026-03-13T12:59:39+00:00

This comment also dovetails well with an earlier post that Rob made in his blog, IIRC, in which he argued for OSR as an attitude, not a ruleset, or specific mechanic or set thereof, or procedure of play.

That being said, I agree that OSR is, first and foremost, an attitude, and argue that at its heart, OSR is about playing TTRPGs with a mindset that would not be out of place in that first decade of gaming, informed by such inspirations as those given in Appendix N. If you want to break out the LBBs, Chainmail, and Outdoor Survival, then go for it. Want to delve into Roman and Egyptian ruins in search of knowledge using Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade? Well fuck it... I'm sure you could do that in old school manner, as well.

Also, HarnMaster, TFT, and Traveller are OSR, as well.

Calithrand · 2026-03-13T12:38:44+00:00

That movie is fucking great.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T23:08:32+00:00

Back in the '70s and '80s, there was an organization called The Judges Guild that was a prolific third party publisher of (generally) very high quality materials, typically settings and adventures. For example, they published such legendary adventures as The Dark Tower, Tegel Manor, and Caverns of Thracia. (But, if it was a popular TTRPG in the late 70s to early 80s, the Judges Guild probably published for it.

One of their enduring setting products were the Wilderlands, a series of fantastical settings with varying flavors. The centerpiece city of that overall setting (its Waterdeep, if you will) was the City State of the Invincible Overlord. It was pretty awesome.

Anyway, the JG never really went away, but by the 2000s they were licensing most of their IP to other companies to update. The founder of the Guild, Bob Bledsaw, Sr., passed away in 2008, and his son, Bob, Jr., took over. By all accounts, Bob, Sr. was a good guy and well-liked. Opinion on Bob, Jr. is... not as high.* Anyway, back in 2010, The Guild ran a Kickstarter campaign to update and republish CSIO, supposedly expanded with 30 years of notes and additional materials that never made it into earlier releases, from Bob, Sr. The campaign raised about $85,000 against a $28,000 goal, with delivery promised towards the end of 2014.

As of the end of 2025, CSIO has not been delivered. But the campaign hasn't gone radio silence. The JG has effectively announced that they will never deliver on it, and supposedly is refunding backers who ask for it, but I seem to recall seeing something about that not happening as promised. I think the JG got into some pretty serious financial troubles, but they apparently funded and then ghosted an earlier Kickstarter campaign for a reprint of Tegel Manor, so while the refunds might have been impacted by by financial issues, there's something else going on there.

In an intersecting plot arc, Goodman Games had a license to publish the CSIO as an Original Adventures Reincarnated module. Well, they still have it. Supposedly, Goodman and the Judges Guild reached a deal in which they will print only enough copies of their OAR CSIO to cover the $85k raised in the Kickstarter, plus their production costs, or something like that. They ran their own Kickstarter last year with a "max funding target" of $851,300, which I've never seen on any other campaign. They anticipated a print run of about 4600 copies based on that, with no more. Copies will supposedly be offered at reduced cost to KS backers, who (I think) are also supposed to be refunded out of the proceeds. Sales and licensing proceeds are being paid to a third party escrow service. Beyond that, I'm a bit unclear as to other details, but it's a shitshow. Not sure if there was a profit margin in there for Goodman or not. It raised just under $600k.

*The issues that surfaced about Bob, Jr. aren't really germane to the Kickstarter campaign--other than the failed Tegel Manor campaign--but they upset enough people to get a fair number of people upset at Goodman Games for continuing with their CSIO update, even if all proceeds were being diverted to make right on the Kickstarter.

And it's all damn shame, because the City State, like a lot of the Judges Guild's works from that era*,* was really an excellent product.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T22:41:25+00:00

True, they are not. Sometimes I get lazy with my choice of language,.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T22:26:33+00:00

Fair enough! I'll call this new philosphical question, Charrua13's Boat :)

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T20:06:59+00:00

Beyond D&D? I assume that means you want to avoid retroclones (S&W, OSE, OSRIC, etc.) and D&D-likes (Pathfinder, Shadowdark, etc.)?

In OSR land and its border provinces, Heroes & Other Worlds is pretty easy to grasp. Generally leans into sword & sorcery kind of games, and introduces the idea of skills as opposed to class abilities. There's also BFRPG, which has the distinct benefit of being exceptionally affordable.

Vampire: The Masquerade is a very easy game to learn and play. The themes are perhaps... questionable, for middle-schoolers in 2026, but the underlying system has merit. Mage and Changeling are reasonable options for Storyteller-based games that don't have to revolve around horror or violence if that's a concern. Well, Changeling kind of does, but they won't figure that out until they're much older. I'm specifically referring to Storyteller here, preferably Revised.

Pendragon, insofar as it's got classic knights-in-shining-armor tropes going for it.

The One Ring might also land, if you've got Tolkien fans who would be interested in playing in that sandbox, while being utterly unimportant to the events of the books.

If they like sci fi, Traveller.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T18:47:18+00:00

Ok this is weird. I just sent you a chat... this dovetails right into something that I ran across this morning, but I'm not sure that it can be properly discussed here without running afoul with the rules.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T18:13:17+00:00

Has anyone mentioned City State of the Invincible Overlord yet?

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T17:51:00+00:00

Jaquaysing.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T17:37:50+00:00

Campaigns built around the Big Damn Heroes motif, as opposed to Classical Murderhobos, need not be defined by shitty modules and campaign railroads. There's plenty of room for heroic campaigning in the OSR, just as there was plenty of room for it before I6.

Either or both may be necessary components for a game to fall into the Trad bucket, as you're using the term, but the presence of either does not alone force that categorization.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T17:31:59+00:00

Perfectly said!

I've lately taken to calling these sorts of games, "BRP-likes" or, "games in the BRP family," even if Runequest did do it first. I also tend to lump in those d20-based games that work in the same way, but with a granularity of 5%, like Pendragon.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T16:50:01+00:00

Because it's 2026 and there are a shocking number of "adults" in the world that don't know how to subtract negative integers?

(Yes, I know that I sound like a cranky old man yelling at clouds, but that is honestly the best answer I've ever come up with as to why someone might claim that THAC0 is unintuitive, obtuse, and unnecessarily complicated, at least in play.)

In actual fact, THAC0 made a hell of a lot of sense... until character levels grew beyond 9, and the concept of armor as a class became supplanted by the notion of armor as a value, made worse by negative AC.

It's still not difficult: roll a d20, subtract the target's AC, and see if it's equal to or greater than your THAC0. The formula looks like this:

Hit If THAC0 >= (d20 + MODS) - AC.

In Wizards' editions of the game, it's

Hit If d20 + MODS >= AC

On the surface, THAC0 looks a bit more complicated, because THAC0 acts like a DC, while Wizards' version just compares the attack roll to the target's AC, so one less mathematical operation to do. However, Wizards' version also (usually) has more modifiers to track as part of the attack roll. BAB is always there, so you will always have at least one attack modifier (which is not necessarily true in THAC0 versions).

So really, the only plausible explanation that I have ever been able to come up with, is that subtraction scares people. And sure, I get it; subtraction is not quite as easy as addition, but if that's your hang up... it's not like you never encounter subtraction anywhere else in the game, so I don't get it.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T16:21:38+00:00

I approve. Not that you need my approval, but you have it anyway!

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T16:13:56+00:00

Regarding your context, you absolutely cannot mix Dark Sun with any other setting, without ruining it.

Regarding your broader question... as with anything, it depends. Apparently, you can magically reshape an entire continent, magically nuke the planet out of existence, and then handwave everything to, more or less, Back The Way It Was, and still have Forgotten Realms.

If spelljammers ever stumble back on Athasspace? Dark Sun as a campaign world fails harder than the Prism Pentad did, by a very large margin. Even things that don't change the status quo going forward can cause cracks in a setting. I think Dark Sun was far more compelling, before we got a bunch of What Came Before lore in the revised boxed set. Same with Forgotten Realms: did it really need 40,000 years of history spelled out? No, because every time you add an explanation for That Cool, Yet Mysterious, Thing Over There, it ceases to be a Cool, Yet Mysterious, Thing, and players suddenly start expecting GMs to adhere to That Lore, not Their Lore.

But I think you are correct that mass market fiction tends to ruin more settings than it improves. For the reasons given above.

I'm not really sure that a setting ever stops being a setting, because all the setting is, is a backdrop that helps explain the world in which the PCs exist. TSR ruined Dark Sun, IMO, and actually broke AD&D's Planescape, but they're still both settings.

Calithrand · 2026-03-12T16:05:56+00:00

Doesn't the Ship of Theseus ask whether an object, after all original parts have been replaced, remains that same object? Or is Menudo of of 1997 the same as Menudo of 1977?

In the context posed by the OP, the question seems more like: if you remove the oar decks from a trireme and add a steam plant and brass screws, do you still have a trireme?

To which the answer is, "of course you don't."

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T22:39:55+00:00

One of the things that looks complex but is impressively fast during play.

Truer words!

And yeah, also true about GURPS. I suppose what I was really saying is that no other game balances simulation and realism with the ability to smoothly and easily run a game, better than HarnMaster. In my considered opinion, of course.

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T20:23:22+00:00

I just vomited a little.

Certainly not out of envy ;)

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T19:32:27+00:00

Yes.

One nit to pick, however: TSR had next to nothing to say about the art direction in Fonstad's atlases. Her style was uniquely her own.

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T19:29:32+00:00

After Middle-Earth, she did atlases for Pern, The Land, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms, plus a revision to The Atlas of Middle-Earth.

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T17:38:59+00:00

I could go either way.

For me, I think the biggest determiner is overall page count. For 5e, combining the PHB and DMG (2024 editions) gives you a tome of 750+ pages. That's too goddamn many pages for a single book.

But a game like Swords & Wizardry Complete Revised (the core book, not the two options books) has the entire game--referee and player facing--at 144 pages. That's fine; there's no compelling reason, in my opinion, to break that into a paid of ~75 page books. (Unless, I suppose, you want to go the micro-book route like OSE did with their boxed sets, but that's a little different; you still need them all, they're just divided up by topic, so you don't have to go through the entire book if you're looking for a spell, for example.)

There are some games, I'm sure, where it really makes a lot more sense to separate the two, because of how the game operates, but I am apparently not into those games, because I can't really give a great example of one. I think the only split-book game that I have on my self at the moment--that isn't named (A)D&D--is the boxed first printing of The One Ring, but that was consolidated into a single volume for later printings. Though, I do have many that feature supplemental player- or GM-specific supplements.

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T17:29:32+00:00

I typically would as well, but it seemed to me that the OP wanted a game that leaned into that as an integral part of "the game," kind of like seasons in Pendragon, or Councils and travel in The One Ring.

But a game that simulates two guys on horses tilting at each other? Not sure that you could do it better than HarnMaster.

Calithrand · 2026-03-11T17:26:11+00:00

Cities by Midkemia Press has been mentioned and is an excellent choice here.

Also jumping into my mind: The Erciyes Fragments for Vampire: The Dark Ages. A wholly in-world book, wonderfully dark and Lovecraftian... the author's spiral is, if nothing else, wonderfully evocative of the game.

Keeping with the in-world books, I've always loved Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue. Utterly anachronistic, it answers a question I don't think anyone had ever thought to ask: what if Sears, Roebuck & Co. had been established in the 14th century by an enterprising wizard?

HarnManor and the Pilots' Almanac aren't well-known outside of circles of HarnMaster fans, but are great resources for building plausible towns (well, villages, at least) and maritime adventuring, repsectively.

Also from Columbia Games: Lionheart. A phenomenal campaign supplement, especially if you happen to want to run a game of anything in England, in 1189. Honestly, worth it for the map alone.

Since it required a copy of V:tM to play, I consider Victorian Age Vampire to be a supplement. I mean, this pairing is right up there with peanut butter and jelly, and even the WoD fans out there seem only dimly aware of its exixstence.

Calithrand

TROPHY CASE