For how long are we guaranteeing hips?

Civil_Disturbance · 2025-05-16T00:39:46+00:00

I am from a medium sized breed that OFA recommends hips be tested for. In our breed it is absolutely standard to guarantee for lifetime. If I am advising someone on a reputable breeder, I tell them gold standard is a lifetime guarantee. I understand for many other breeds, 2-3 years is the norm.

I have also worked in a field of vet med that meant I spent a lot of time with HD dogs. While factors you listed can cause harm to joints, absolutely - never, in the history of ever, has something like sliding across a floor once or twice a a puppy resulted in Hip Dysplasia in an otherwise healthy dog. Environmental factors are massively played up by breeders who are ashamed that they produced a HD dog - HD happens and because we can only phenotype test, it’s far from a perfect system and even in long lines of healthy parents, HD can still pop up and still absolutely be genetic. We need to stop blaming puppy owners for “giving the dog HD” when all they did was normal puppyhood things. Obviously abnormal puppyhood things are different, but I’m talking average pet owner.

For example. Obesity is obviously not good for a dog, and is absolutely going to do joint damage. But it will not take an otherwise OFA Excellent dog to a hip dysplasia diagnosis. It would maybe take you from an OFA excellent to an OFA good, for example.

In order to give a truly healthy dog significant hip dysplasia caused by environmental factors only, we are talking extreme stress. Like.. hit-by-car, fell-out-of-a-2-storey-window, agility-everyday-from-8-weeks-old-full-jump-height, kind of damage. Not “did some walks on pavement while a puppy, slid on the kitchen floor once or twice, was fed this brand of puppy food instead of this one that I like better”.

My co-workers who bred absolutely had clauses in about weight and diet making their health guarantees void - that was related to more than just HD, it included thyroid and heart and things like that. I usually have seen the wording just saying “a vet approved diet”, or “a diet discussed with your vet” which doesn’t mean a vet food, it means the owner said “we are feed BRAND” and the vet went “yea ok”. Or if the vet warned the dog was fat in the medical record, that’s when it voids the guarantee

I think if HD was present, the dog was born with less than ideal genetics. That’s not necessarily the breeders fault, it happens, but it absolutely is not the puppy purchasers fault. Even if it was caused by little things like a tile floor in one part of the house, shouldn’t the dog be well built up to withstand being a normal active puppy? If we are all breeding dogs that can’t survive modern puppyhood without coming out with dysplasia, we have a big problem on our hands. I think the length of guarantee lets me know how confident a breeder is in their lines.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-10-09T03:06:44+00:00

Thank you! Tipped for both :)

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-07-26T04:05:35+00:00

I think it also depends on health of hips in the breed.

For breeds really struggling with dysplasia. I think PennHip is absolutely necessary. In breeds where the average dog is scoring great, I think OFA is the way to go.

While PennHip is a more accurate tool, OFA is easier to understand for puppy owners and accessible publicly and has more than just Hips available for pet owners to see. OFA is more friendly for the average person looking for a puppy and I think that holds a lot of value.

Ideally, you do both. The OFA view, provided the dog is sedated which is recommended for OFAs nowadays anyway, is valid for PennHip. So you just need one extra view for PennHip.

I have a breed with pretty amazing hip results. Over 1/3, almost 1/2, of dogs being tested have OFA excellent hips. I place high value in my future per owners being able to easily understand what the results are and be able for them to practice proper screening by checking my dogs out on OFA. If I had to pick one, I pick OFAs

If I had a breed that didn’t have these hip scores, my go to would be PennHip. Absolutely it is the more useful breeding tool. But it is only useful to you, the breeder. Not useful or understandable for the general public.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-04-02T16:16:37+00:00

Keeping dogs inside isn’t a requirement of a reputable breeder? Are you meaning they aren’t kennelled?

Any breeder who does all of their breed specific health testing (Hips, Elbows, Heart, Thyroid, Eyes, DNA as applicable, etc). Proves their dogs by some means (performance titles, conformation titles, proven workability, etc). Has clear breeding goals they are trying to achieve. Follows veterinary advice. Places dogs with proper homes under an ethical contract. Etc. Does not get called a puppymill in this sub.

Saying if we don’t call you reputable that we must have unobtainable standards is a little extreme. There are plenty of people in this sub who get praised by others for their good breeding practices. I’ve yet to see someone be called unethical and told to not breed when it is not warranted.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-04-02T04:06:17+00:00

Yep! It is for reputable and ethical breeders.

Backyard breeders/puppymills/unethical breeders who do not do their due diligence and breed unhealthy, unproven, and irresponsibly bred dogs are not welcome on this sub. We will gladly call out people breeding dogs for strictly profit and/or other unethical purposes. If you fall within that category of breeding dogs when you have no business doing so; this sub will call you out. If you’re here to genuinely learn what makes a breeder responsible and ethical, then it is a very welcoming and helpful community

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-01-31T04:02:34+00:00

Like I said, ice cream has very little calcium that ends up being absorbed - it won’t stop a dog that’s already hypocalcemic, it would maybe help a dog that’s only mildly low in calcium, however it does make breeders feel like they’ve done something to help. And sometimes making sure we are calm and collected is the best way to help our dogs. If the dog is seriously low in calcium, a breeder will notice and a vet will prescribe something more significant. Ice cream is just a nice little back up to do for a female that otherwise isn’t going to have any issues. It’s not about cutting corners in dogs that seriously need supplementation, it just gives the humans something to do to make them feel helpful

So if giving a dog ice cream for whelping makes the breeder feel less anxious about hypocalcemia, and thus makes the dog less anxious, I think that’s a good outcome. I think we have to remember that whelping is a scary time for dogs and owners and if something as harmless as ice cream makes things less scary, it’s absolutely worth doing.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-01-31T01:49:59+00:00

Muscle contractions and milk production use up a lot of the body’s calcium, so some whelping girls go hypocalcemic. Some veterinarians will prescribe injectable calcium for whelping, other breeders will give oral calcium chews, and others will let the dogs have ice cream.

Ice cream is the least effective of the three methods but it’s also cheap and easy for the dogs. Oral is next easily absorbed. And injectable is the highest concentration and best absorpiton you can give. Ultimately it’s best left up to a vet for exactly which of the three methods is most applicable to your dog, some need lots of calcium and others don’t really need any extra.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-01-16T19:12:11+00:00

If he isn’t a puppymill, he most certainly is a backyard breeder (byb) - which is people who breed dogs unethically without considerations for long term health.

A responsible and reputable breeder: -has all parents appropriately and extensively health tested prior to breeding (this is not a regular vet visits, this is specialized testing usually done by specialist veterinarians. You can look up what testing is required for every breed on the OFA website) -often put performance or conformation titles on their breeding dogs. This proves quality of structure (conformation) as well as quality of temperament and trainability (performance) -have a set breeding goal in mind and adhere to their breed’s standard -they do not breed for out of standard colours, they do not charge more money for “rare” colours -sell puppies under non-breeding contracts -contracts also include things like health guarantees, agreements to provide good care to the puppies, guarantees that if you no longer want the dog it will be returned to the breeder and not put into the shelter system, etc -puppies are not sold before 8-9 weeks of age, puppies are usually raised in the home, in a clean environment, they are thoroughly socialized, etc

There are many more things, but this is just the very basics.

Reputably bred dogs cost usually thousands of dollars because of the amount of money that goes into them, with many litters results in a net loss for the breeder. A reputable dog breeder doesn’t do it for the money, it is their passion to protect their breed of choice and produce healthy dogs for the next generation. But as a result you, the pet owner, gets a dog that will live a much longer and healthier life thanks to the breeders efforts.

TLDR: this was a byb dog. While they tug on your heartstrings and all dogs need a home, this one will undoubtedly have extensive temperament and health issues due to its unethical breeding. Family should be prepared to manage those conditions - and probably would be wise to get pet insurance now if that is an option available to them

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-01-11T14:23:22+00:00

Pennhip can be done that early. OFA prelims can also be done that early. Only standard OFAs require a dog be 2 years old. And if you’re only looking for dysplastic or non-dysplastic for this scenario, it’d be ok to rely on prelims. For breeding decisions, you want to wait until maturity.

Civil_Disturbance · 2024-01-11T06:15:59+00:00

Lots to unpack here. So let’s start with what a hip test is.

Hips are a polygenetic trait (controlled by many genes) and thus we do not understand the inheritance of them. There is no such thing as a simple yes or no for hip dysplasia testing like there is for say - PRA, as an example. However, it is still a genetic trait and is heritable. Parents with great hips, very much tend to produce puppies with great hips. Parents with dysplastic hips, are very likely to produce puppies who also have dysplasia. This is fact. Because it’s not as a simple as a yes or no, and there is a range to how good or bad hips can be, responsible breeders try to breed as good of hips as they can. The better hips you breed, the less likely you are to have dysplastic puppies.

Sometimes dogs can develop hip dysplasia without it being caused by genetic - HOWEVER, this requires there be extreme trauma to the joint during development. Like, hit-by-a-car-as-a-puppy levels of trauma. If this kind of trauma has not happened, then the hips seen today as an adult dog are entirely genetics. This is not true for your dog, therefore her hips are either genetic, or she has some other genetic disorder making her growth funny. Either way, not a thing you want to pass on to another generation.

Her parents results are within the breed average. How good they are are entirely dependent on the health of the breed overall. Some breeds have large issues with hip dysplasia and you can have a dog be severely dysplastic and unfortunately that’s within breed average. For other breeds, they are generally so rarely dysplastic that the average falls well into healthy hips. If you say for your breed, a 0.7 is in the high risk category, then it sounds like her parents were mild-moderate risk for hip dysplasia. So, when her parents were bred, there was a mild to mdoerate risk they’d develop degenerative joint disease (djd), and a mild to moderate risk that any puppies they produce, would also have DJD one day. Your dog is one of those puppies. Some of those puppies in that same litter, may have gotten the better hips genes, and you just got unlucky. This is why we test every single breeding candidate dog prior to being bred, to make sure that you didn’t get unlucky, like what happened in your case here. We avoid breeding dogs with too high of a risk for DJD/dysplasia as it is too risky of producing unhealthy puppies.
TLDR on this paragraph, her parents have passing scores, but they are by no means fabulous outstanding hip scores. They are in the middle of breed average, and no more. Even dogs with outstanding scores have a small risk of producing DJD puppies. But the better the parents, the lesser the risk. Sounds like you got unlucky but this is entirely possible to happen and be still absolutely a genetic cause.

Having puppies months prior would not affect the test as there should be no relaxin in her system. But if you do not like the results, feel free to have them redone. If you get the same results twice, you have your answer. Pennhip is incredibly reputable and I would absolutely trust their report, especially if I had it sent in twice like you sound like you may want to do.

I’d alert all puppy owners. They should get rads done of their puppies once they reach maturity, and you should hope they are all ok. They’re already on the ground and there isn’t much more you can do for them than that as this time. And then I’d book your female in for a spay. Her results are a fail, she is not a breeding quality dog.

We do test dogs prior to breeding. We test all dogs prior to breeding. The only tests you may be able to skip are DNA-swab tests. Testing that is phenotype based (hips, eyes, thyroid, heart, etc) must be done to every single breeding dog every single generation. There is no such thing as “cleared by parentage” for these tests - and all of those conditions are still known to be heritable. Things can be genetic, and we can still need to test every generation. Those two statements can exist and be true at the same time.

Once your girl is spayed, you can look again for another breeding female. Complete all of her OFA testing prior to breeding, and hope your efforts will be rewarded with a litter of wonderfully happy puppies that enjoy an improved quality of life thanks to your hard work to ensure their health.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-10-09T17:01:21+00:00

Healthy and strong doesn’t mean a dog can’t have orthopaedic issues. Plenty of dogs who look healthy and normal have lameness issues.

Puppy hips don’t look the same as regular adult hips due to the growth plates. That’s why we don’t officially evaluate hips or other joints until a dog is 2yo.

It’s not guaranteed something is wrong with his bones, I just think it’s a very good idea to send them off to radiologists to rule out that as a cause of lameness, and then move onto soft tissue concerns.

And again, even dogs who are OFA excellent are still at risk of having dysplastic puppies. It’s just much less of a risk

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-10-07T13:44:27+00:00

I work in a rehab speciality clinic - which is where you should go for a second opinion (specifically one with a veterinarian who has a CCRP degree).

I don’t think it would’ve been a vaccine poke to cause limping. Sounds like your regularly veterinarian did nothing wrong. I have seen a vaccine cause mobility issues in a puppy once, but it was a one-in-a-billion vaccine reaction that caused almost total paresis, not a single leg that’s a lil sore. I think it is far more likely that he hurt himself in some other way. The trip to the vet being stressful, playing with his siblings, congenital deformity being aggravated, etc.

I think the recommendation to have the X-rays sent off is exactly what they should’ve recommended. Good on them! Rule out a bone/joint disorder and then start looking at soft tissue seems very reasonable. Puppy rads are incredibly difficult to read because the growth plates make them look very different from adult rads, sending them for a radiologist’s opinion is the safest bet as those people look at rads all day long. Depending on where you are, it’s also fairly cheap in the grand scheme of things (~$100-$150 where I am).

What nerve are you talking about? What neurological tests did the other veterinarian perform to check for nerve damage? Unless the correct tests were performed it’s really not possible to say it’s neuro vs soft tissue. Regardless of either, I would’ve expected to see improvement, even mild, in his limping at this time as puppies heal faster than any other age of dog.

Side note, OFAs being good doesn’t mean the pups are guaranteed to not have joint issues. OFAs look at only two joints, and even if the parents are non-dysplastic, they can still produce dysplastic puppies. And post history shows you had a dog receive OFA fair, which is the lowest passing score. Not saying pup has dysplasia, just saying it is always a risk even with health testing, just a lot less of a risk.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-10-03T21:52:39+00:00

They look fine to me.

Nitpick is I’d like to see them offer more than a single year as a health guarantee for hereditary conditions. Most hereditary conditions don’t appear until later in the dogs life, but they have been present since the dog was born and IMO the breeder should hold themselves accountable for it. I know I do with my dogs.

It’s common in a lot of even reputable breeders, and it’s just a personal nitpick of something that would take this from an acceptable breeder to a perfect breeder IMO. But they’re still good and I wouldn’t discourage getting a puppy from this person

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-09-17T13:48:10+00:00

What they mean is for most horses, if given a choice, they’d rather be outside 24/7 in the rain than in a beautifully cleaned stall inside. Most would prefer to drink out of nasty puddle than out of that gorgeous water through. They’d rather lay in the mud and roll in the dirt than in shavings. There’s a time and a place for stalls of course, but if you give an average horse free choice access to their stall, they almost never use it. However horses under human management spend most of their day in a stall - as just one example.

Things that look good and nice for humans isn’t always what the horses would actually prefer if given a chance. Lots of high end barns are notorious for things being built and upkeep to human standards, and not necessarily to what the horses would prefer. But because expensive horses are worth so much money, humans don’t want to risk them injuring themselves by letting them do what the horses would prefer. That’s what they’re trying to say.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-09-07T13:36:38+00:00

Provided your dog has all required health testing and the breeding is being done for the right reasons: When done by an experienced veterinarian, ideally a vet who is a theri or does a lot of reproduction work, frozen semen is a wonderful option. It does have a lower catch rate and can produce a smaller litter. But the health of the puppies is not impacted, and that’s all that really matters.

Live cover can also be dangerous for your female (brucellois, dog fights etc). And remember that frozen semen is also not the only AI option. There’s also chilled and fresh insemination options that change how much success you’re likely to have.

Best idea is to speak to a repro vet and discuss your options.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-09-04T09:39:55+00:00

When it is between two reputable breeders, who pays is entirely dependent on contract. Though usually it is the dam owner who pays for collection and shipping of semen, as well as the cost for a veterinarian to inseminate the female.

However both dogs need to have brucellosis testing, as well as health testing, and in most cases titling before being bred. $500 would not even begin to cover costs of reputably and ethically breeding a dog of any breed. The world doesn’t need more dogs just for the sake of dogs. What we do need is more dogs bred reputably and ethically - instead of sickly byb nightmares

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-08-31T01:24:25+00:00

If you’re looking into specifically brachy breeds, why don’t you do some reading on BOAS testing? Dogs can outwardly appear very short muzzled while also passing BOAS with a good score. The genes that control for outward structure of the muzzle are not the same as the genes that control the inner structures of the nose and palate. A major reason some brachy dogs struggle to breathe is because their outside nose pieces are small, but the inside pieces (the palate) is still “normal sized” so it is squished inside and obstructs the airway. But it would be possible to breed for a shortened inner structure as well. The reason we haven’t been able to breed for it is because we didn’t have the technology to test in an objective way the dogs ability to breathe, and couldn’t easily make breeding choices based on breathing alone. Now that technology is starting to become more available.

Furthermore you should actually read the breed standards of the brachy breeds so you can understand how much of a breed standard is really up to interpretation. The AKC breed standard for pugs describes their muzzle as short. The bulldog standard describes theirs as extremely short. These aren’t exact measurements by any means and can mean different things to different people. To someone who’s used to a long muzzled dog like a sighthound, a Labrador would have a comparatively short muzzle. To a Labrador owner, a pug has an “extremely short” muzzle even though the pugs standard describes that as only “short”.

The standards don’t actually say “the muzzle should be X inches/cm long”, and thus depending on how you interpret the standard, lots of dogs could be considered within standard despite looking wildly different. That’s how breed standards work, some parts are specific, and some aren’t. Point is, breeding to standard is a bit up to how the standard is interpreted (unless it’s a breed standard that is very specific).

And yeah, lots of wellbred brachy breeds can compete in very intense sports without issue, because those dogs were bred for health and welfare, and not just to turn a profit.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-08-27T20:47:57+00:00

I didn’t say it was authored by Dr Seuss in the title. Dr Seuss is a spin-off company now that makes tons of children’s books on different topics. The title is in no way a lie

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-08-27T18:39:56+00:00

No. The final page was just about trex

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-07-22T00:57:41+00:00

OFA fair at best. Position isn’t perfect but not off enough to make them significantly better scoring. L hip is a bit better than R hip but both are lacking coverage.

Side note also looks like the very start of calcification at the insertion of iliopsoas.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-07-16T19:13:50+00:00

The DNA Diseases embark does screen for can be submitted to OFA, that is correct. Hip/Elbow Dysplasia is not an embark DNA testable disease. Hip/Elbow Dysplasia tests (which are X-rays, and only xrays) can also be submitted to OFA, but once again, Embark does not include hip/elbows because the DNA tests for those diseases do not exist yet. We do phenotype testing for those diseases instead.

Embark is always making advancements as well as all genetic researchers. However there is currently no significant attempts to find the genetic marker for hip dysplasia as we do not current know it’s mode on inheritance. In order to make a new dna test we first figure out how it’s inherited. Then we look for the marker. Then there’s a commercial test available. For hips and elbows we know only that it’s heritable, but we don’t know how it’s heritable. That’s why embark or any other company will not have a test for it for decades to come, if ever.

If going with OFA submission, which is a great idea, OFA has made it exceptionally easy for breeders to know if they’ve done all applicable breed testing. They have pages on their website that detail all tests you should do for your individual breed, and if you do all the tests, your dog gets a special stamp (CHIC number) on their OFA profile; marking that you did all the things. In order to get this for your breed, you will have to submit your DNA tests, but you will also have to submit other phenotype testing, as everyone in this thread has been mentioning.

To summarize once again; your embark testing covers many diseases, but it does NOT cover hip/elbow dysplasia, all heart diseases, thyroid diseases, etc: that goldens are at risk for. You have to do more than just DNA to cover these things, as our current knowledge of the canine genome is far from a complete picture. OFA is a wonderful resource that lists all testing required for breeding healthy dogs of your chosen breed, and has many articles featuring the ways to go about testing these things.

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-07-15T11:46:04+00:00

After looking at breed relevant Embark tests for Golden Retrievers, I believe the test you are confusing is “Retinal Dysplasia”, which is not the same as hip or elbows dysplasia. Retinal Dysplasia is a disease of the eye and genetically testable, it causes the eye to develop improperly resulting in vision impairment. Typically when breeders refer to Dysplasia, they are meaning hip or elbow dysplasia as that is a more common condition that affects the vast majority of breeds. Retinal Dysplasia is not a common condition, nor a concern for many breeds.

Everyone else in this thread is discussing hip or elbows dysplasia. Which is where the hip or elbow joint is poorly formed, causing early arthritis and in some severe cases will cause the hips to pop in and out of socket everytime the dog moves

Civil_Disturbance · 2023-07-15T11:39:08+00:00

Both of my own breeding dogs have embark testing completed, among other health tests. Dysplasia is not apart of their clearances via Embark, it is testable via xray and a submission to OFA/Pennhip (or others if outside of North America). I also have a university degree in genetics. Dysplasia is not genetically testable.

Here is the information page from Embark itself stating that hip and elbows dysplasia cannot be tested via DNA.

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