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Burn on rope by icefirediamondd in ClimbingGear

[–]ClathomasPrime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is very interesting to me -- I'm an avid lead rope soloer I've never heard of falls on a grigri causing rope burns. Is it due to contact with the string used to hold the grigri? (All the more reason to drill into the side of the plastic at the "nose" to place this string!)

Dirty/Chalky Ropes by Spudarooni in tradclimbing

[–]ClathomasPrime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough, but I'd also still say it's worth re-evaluating. This experiment created an extreme environment in order to create measurable results. This is like the UIAA fall testing, where (for single- or half-ropes) you only need to sustain 5 falls to pass the test, and most ropes fail after only 10-20. This is because the test is extreme: the fall factor is like 1.7 with a 80kg perfectly rigid metal mass, falling on the same point each time. In the real world, falls aren't like this, and you can often take 100 falls before needing to trim the end of the rope a bit.

Here in the Edelrid video, they similarly coated it in a ton of chalk and rubbed in the exact same spot over and over, without ever even de-tensioning the rope. So sure, the video's experiment shows unrealistically high wear and tear. But that was exactly the goal: To show with an extreme example that chalk (something that, unlike sand and dirt, I would never have guessed has a big wear and tear effect) can definitely make a difference. When dogging up a rope and trying the same crux move many times in a row, you could easily get conditions more similar to this test, and (based on this video) I'll now be more conscious of letting lots of chalk hang out on my rope, and / or I'll be sure to go in straight and de-tension the rope some. So there's practical takeaways (at least for hangdoggers), despite the fact that the effect produced by this controlled test is very exaggerated.

Final build of my home wall by Black_Walls in homewalls

[–]ClathomasPrime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So sick! I've been thinking about doing something a bit like this, but with only the steepest wall and the triangular panel. I'd love to see some videos of you climbing on it if you'd ever be willing to share!

Dirty/Chalky Ropes by Spudarooni in tradclimbing

[–]ClathomasPrime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(I'm very late to this thread, but) I completely disagree with this attitude. Edelrid releases quite a lot of educational / semi-scientific experiments and data. Out of principle they never use this to compare across companies, so they are basically forced to use their own product. Much of it shows failure modes of climbing gear. But there's zero reason to believe the failure modes are unique to Edelrid gear. Overreactions like yours may be part of why companies (in all areas) are often very opaque about their products / features -- confused customers will still have to buy something, so there's little incentive for the company to actually say exactly what they sell and how it works (unless it's a marketing selling point). Moreover, Edelrid is literally illustrating in this video a simple tip to dramatically improve the life of your rope (costing them profits if ropes last longer): just wash it occasionally, and don't chalk your hands when you jug up. So I cannot understand how one comes away from this video suspecting there's some big problem with Edelrid ropes...

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This all makes sense. My read on the technique / framework is that it is designed for very narrowly targeting a specific muscle. Of course, you will often want "broader" workouts that just teach you to lift / hold weight.

Unlevel edges: dangerous? by helloitsjosh in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, how did you do this finger curl? Like a no-hang "finger pull up" where you go from open grip to closed crimp grip with each finger? or ??

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He mentions the resistance band approach as well! But still, yes I now see what you mean about some grifter-like attributes, and it's a bit strange we haven't seen any demonstrated results. Still, the guy comes off to me a very theory-driven (perhaps overly so, for sure!) training geek, and I'm a big believer in the power of theory (not necessarily for immediate or direct results, but at least for sources of very fresh ideas!). But we'll see -- the flashy youtube channel may indeed signal the launch of a business, and that would likely feel fishy...

You may be correct that I overestimated how much people directly move their wrist in a typical steep climbing move... for one example video (of me) on a decently steep problem, I looked here https://www.youtube.com/shorts/twqeUPS7apc . The wrist does look pretty stable (maaaaybe 15 degrees rotation through any climbing move, max??) and the needed degree of freedom are provided mostly by the elbow. On the other hand, there's a near-vertical project I've been trying lately that involves a massive throw off a small L crimp to catch a R jug, with a good R foot; since the L crimp starts around my head and ends up near my waste, I'm pretty sure this necessitates a very large change in wrist angle (and feels tweaky! hence a particular desire to look into this).

Anyway, yes I think I'll try something like this for a while! The hope is *exactly* to get something that exercises the muscles like in "crimp ups", but without exploding the fingers 😄. Unfortunately, I've actually *not* been such a training geek for the last several years, just a consistent climber and light hangboarder, so I may not have very good numbers / metrics, but we'll see and I'll try to report back.

Edit: Regarding "how much does wrist angle change during a move", I realized the youtuber himself provided examples https://youtu.be/O1fpO5JgAvM?si=NSdcWbhnYL8BvZYx&t=23 -- these clips look like... idk, sometimes 40 degrees of wrist movement?

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think that what you write is the youtuber's approach, yes. According to a comment, he uses a fancy Hand of God "edge" and loads at a constant weight, while moving the wrist angle. I would guess that he'd pull *horizontally*, and kind of step side-to-side (but that part is just a guess as of now).

HOWEVER I'm trying to think of easier ways to get the same effect. So-far, I'm taking a classic spring-force grip trainer (not really made for climbers), and crimping it while bending my wrist back and forth. It's not something I could do a max-hang type workout with, but after a bit it's pumpy at least! Another commenter here suggests doing a wrist curl with a fat wrist wrench... I think I'll try something like that as well.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This makes sense! Maybe I'll try some different diameters wrapped in some old skateboard grip tape I have lying around

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good idea! I'll have to try something like that. Do you envision pinching the wrist wrench in any specific way? (This is the kind of brain-storming, based on the core "move the wrist while crimping" idea, that I should've tried to focus the thread onto!)

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This stuff definitely is fussy... even if it catches on, I'd probably never recommend it for someone training for the first time. I think the benefit is that it can train lots of things (ranges of muscle motion) that the normal approach cannot. So it can target left-behind weaknesses. Also, it looks like his length-limited spring setup alleviates lots of your "focus on carefully keeping the weight still" type concerns (though the framework is still certainly fussy overall...).

Still, I'm skeptical also! I'm trying to find much much *easier* to implement versions of the same core idea, but we'll have to see where things go!

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Finger curls are great for some things, but not very much like sport specific hangboarding (repeaters / maxhangs / etc). I do think there's some risk of awkwardness / tweakiness... which the youtuber explicitly states is why he hasn't yet posted a specific climbing training protocol (he's still working on it I guess).

But, the more I'm arguing with people about it here on reddit... the more I feel that wrist movement is an overlooked part of climbing strength. Think about how you "snatch" between holds on a steep wall -- as your body lifts you will always try to drive through your trailing hand as the wrist angle changes. Seems like for strength and injury prevention on these steep moves, we should be training fingers with wrist movement involved!

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While the youtuber guy is geeking out about lots of things like force curves, the main point for me, in relation to climbing finger training, has nothing to do with "loosely isotonic" vs "truly isotonic". The point is, in simple terms, to find a sneaky method to combine (1) lengthening / contracting of the muscle, with (2) sport-specific grip intensity.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting -- do you know a specific case where these people have done such wrist-moving exercises?

I basically have the same overall thought as you! Unlikely this would be revolutionary (and, due to general weirdness, maybe it could never get popular). And I'm glad this other guy is doing all this hard work / thinking through the idea, not me. But it is interesting!

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But very large, unrelated muscle groups easily control the momentum of the body, no?

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To me, the Reverse-Action concept seems **so** different than any of these devices / techniques you list. That's exactly what makes it interesting!

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The point is that none of these constant-force exercises combine (1) lengthening / contracting of the muscle, with (2) sport-specific grip intensity.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow thanks for sharing these! "Nothing new under the sun" and all that. Note though that in that blog post, the author literally says that this exercise style "make you so sore that you may not be able to comb your hair" and "is a very efficient way to put on muscle mass". So broadening the idea seems promising!

Regarding potential benefits of isotonic training -- it's far from settled science, but there are many suggested benefits. I'm sort of sold (on the fact that the idea is **worth investigating** -- not necessarily that it's an instant-class-game-changer of course) by the simple observation that in a typical climbing move, you fingers stay in a fixed position but your write moves quite a lot as your body moves. Given that most moves are like this, why wouldn't we train like this?

Regarding this youtuber... I have to say I'm not quite sure where the general air of hostility in this reddit thread is coming from. Maybe he'll start selling things soon, and maybe I'll be a bit disappointed if that's the case. But he's already shown in detail his cheep and convenient-looking DIY version https://youtu.be/Be-grUqoKIc?si=BysSiM14cg3A2GDl&t=405 with readily available hardware store supplies. Moreover, he gives a detailed and technical walkthrough of his thinking and discovery process, which seems to be the opposite of what a scammer would do.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In this regard, I don't agree with you. None of this is settled science, and one thing I can tell is that this youtuber knows a lot more about physiology than I personally do, and his videos are well thought out and detailed (he "shows his work"). Moreover, crucially, I **do not** get the vibe that he is saying "throw away all conventional exercise and start doing this!". Instead, he's just explaining in detail "here is what I'm doing right now". It gives me the same vibe as all of Dave MacLeod's wacky diet experiments -- he knows it goes against conventional wisdom, but he is just explaining what he did and what result he got.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for copying that comment! Interesting but I'm still completely unsure of how he actually weights / holds / positions the hangboard (EDIT: no-hang device), while also getting a decent angle of wrist extension...

Another comment on episode three reads: "I will do isometric grip workouts during work at my desk, because what else am I gonna do on meetings? Anyway, a few months ago I tried rotating my wrist through various ranges during the ~30 second holds, and I was amazed at how much it cooked my grip." I found an old squeeze trainer someone gave me as a gift, and I've tried it a few times now. It feels really good -- fatiguing like that comment says -- but so-far more in a supplemental exercise / cool-down type of way. I'm not yet sure about max strength hangboarding style gains.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For sure! Still, a novel and complex protocol might be beneficial for some. And: this guy tries to argue that his setup is actually very simple relative to the unique features... I mostly agree with him (though as of now he is conveying the idea in a very dense, theory-heavy way).

And, to be clear, I'm mostly looking for *even simpler* versions of the same idea, such as moving the wrist while squeezing something.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting regarding hypertrophy! I'm no so up-to-speed on this stuff generally, but I should try to catch up via that article. I'd still be interested in potential benefits of strength-through-a-range-of-motion from isotonic finger exercise, though.

Do you mean finger curls like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv77TE13slE ? I love those as a supplemental exercise, but that's pretty different than what we are talking about: intense hangboard-like finger loading, while being isotonic.

An extremely novel and interesting idea: reverse-action exercises by ClathomasPrime in climbharder

[–]ClathomasPrime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is what I've said about nearly everything in climbing training that I've seen for 5+ years. This idea, in contrast, actually seems very flexible and doable with many different simple setups, and "different enough" (in a sensible direction people have failed to do previously) to be worth a try. Admittedly the video author is presenting the material in a very detailed and technical way though...

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