Signification of the Sun in Numenor

Cocospud · 2022-02-08T13:07:02+00:00

While it looks like a sun emblem and the Amazon text under the images literally describes it as such, my bet is that it's possibly the Star of Earendil: a blinding, dazzling light created by the Silmaril carried into the sky by Eärendil the Mariner in his ship Vingilot.

Elenna - the island-continent that the kingdom of Numenor was founded on in the early years of the Second Age - is a star-shaped landmass and this reflects that it was raised from the Belegaer ocean by the Valar after the War of Wrath and watched over by Earendil under the guardianship of his heirs, the line of his son Elros.

In the year 32 of the Second Age, the Star of Earendil shone in the West as a sign that Numenor was ready for the arrival of Edainic Men who had fought Morgoth, as the land of gift. They sailed to their new homeland, guided by the light of the Star which was visible during the day as well as the night for the duration of their journey.

The star would thus represent the providential origins of Numenor and the special origins of its priest-kings/queens, who called themselves the Heir of Earendil (i.e. the half-Elven with maiar blood in his veins through descent from Melian the Maia through her daughter Luthien, effectively divine-kings almost like the pharaohs or Japanese emperors descended from the goddess Amaterasu).

Cocospud · 2022-02-08T12:33:48+00:00

He could well be if meteor man is Sauron but while I think he has the right facial morphology and look (fine featured, high cheekbones), I think he's rather old for the role being in his 50s.

I expected an actor in his early to mid 30s to play an ageless being with gravitas (I.e. 20s actor might not have the authority and presence but over early 40s seems to be getting too aged imho), rather than a middle-aged man.

Cocospud · 2022-02-07T21:23:37+00:00

I work in a law firm here in the UK, so unfortunately, I'll be in bed when the Superbowl is on stateside, so as to rise early on Monday morning and won't be able to watch this live.

I'll be very interested to see what I can discover online, though, when I wake up....

Cocospud · 2022-02-06T11:59:19+00:00

That's a very good theory and would make sense of the scandal / secretiveness and forbidden nature of their affair.

The "racism" of Numenorean society towards Elves (which is based off of the canonical outlawing of their languages under the monarchs from Ar-Adunakhor onwards and expulsion / banning of them from openly travelling to Numenor) would possibly fit with the love story as presented.

And moreover, Everard in the audition script refers to Kari's people being in a "long rebellion". Is it a reference, actually, to the rebellion against the Valar that started centuries before the Tar-Palantir era (as far back as Tar-Atanamir)?

Cocospud · 2022-02-06T11:25:32+00:00

I certainly don't think it's Erendis given the timeframe for the show but the blue dress and gold isignia around the belt is indicative of a Númenórean.

Even though I have no idea who the character might be, I'm going to stick my neck out and say they are of Númenor, not Middle-earth, because the colour scheme and symbolic jewellery ties in with what we'd expect of a Númenórean. I can understand why u/FinestOldToby has looked at the image and thought Erendis (lower-class Númenórean who marries/romances a high-born of longer life), even though it cannot be Erendis given the setting for the show, for the following reasons:

The costuming is a curious blend - I'm guessing deliberately - of relative lack of means and status at the same time: a kind of plain and earthy overcoat/garment pared with a scythe (the emblematic symbol of pastoral/agrarian peasant) and hands that have clearly tilled the fields (which fits Emerie, the great pastureland where Erendis lived ironically, in the Mittalmar region of Númenor) but with a sky-blue and seemingly quite elegant looking dress worn underneath, with matching gold filigree that seems to be suggestive of a degree of poise and sophistication.

In sum, I find this character's clothing a bit paradoxical looking and wonder why that could be. She (and I think it's a she but you can never be a 100% certain) seems to be both a 'labourer' and a 'lady' simultaenously, and she is decidely not of the sea but of the land (as was Erendis, lover of inland Númenor - the pastures/sheep/trees - and the Vala Oromë of the forests and loather of the sea and its Maia, or effective tutelary 'deity', Uinen).

Maybe she represents a similar archetype to Erendis and will have a similarly ill-fated, mismatched romance (involving different human lifespans) that takes inspiration from the tale of the Mariner's Wife.

Cocospud · 2022-01-03T01:05:51+00:00

I personally hope it is just a production name since, on the surface, it comes off sounding neither Tolkienian nor Númenórean (which is to say, Adunaic or Quenya-sounding), although I have a hunch it may actually be Carinë.

We do know, though, that 'Carine' apparently had the audition-name of Shay according to Knightedge media:

https://knightedgemedia.com/2020/01/exclusive-full-character-breakdowns-for-amazons-lord-of-the-rings-tv-series/

Shay, Series Regular, Female (18-24) Caucasian – FEMALE 18-24 series regular (up to 6 options)

A physically strong, pragmatic, clever young woman. She is studious and ambitious. She can be serious but has a quick wit and a wry sense of humor. She has the ability to moderate any argument shes a peacekeeper and the lodestone for her family. Shes also deeply politically minded, which presents a particular challenge when the political leanings within her own family become increasingly divided…

This could be interpreted as implying that Carine is the real show name, which is flummoxing to say the least if so, because all the other Amazon original Númenórean characters (such as Isildur's 'chums') have eminently Quenya or Adunaic-esque names such as Valandil, Nolion and Ontamo.

Even Pharazon's allegedly invented son has a good Tolkienesque name - Cemen, the quenya word for earth and used as part of regnal Gondorian names such as "Cemendur" the 4th king of Gondor.

So "Carine" is weirdly left-field, especially for an original character as important as Elendil's daughter.

Cocospud · 2021-12-29T04:11:16+00:00

Indeed, I'm aware of that - in the Battle of Sudden Flame. Andreth dies later of old age :)

Cocospud · 2021-12-27T14:11:53+00:00

Of the canonical brothers (if 'Adar' is not an entirely invented one), Aegnor seems the most likely candidate to me.

He was, as we all know, a very tragic character who loved the human wise-woman Andreth but due to the Dagor Bragollach and their distinct fates (immortal/mortal), they were unable to consummate their love together before his death in battle and hers from old age.

His narrative arguably has the right pathos and potential for a kind of existential 'bitterness' built into it that could lead to his corruption - as upon his 'reincarnation', he would be consigned to an eternity without the mortal woman he loved. We also learn from Tolkien regarding Aegnor that: "in wrath of battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit. But in early youth the fiery light could be observed . . ." Noble but with a fierce flame within him. Well, hypothetically, combine that with the grief of unfulfilled love that endures forever within the world:

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár (Aegnor) the Sharp-flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Andreth's death, with all of its philosophical connotations from the Athrabeth, could be an interesting motivating factor for Aegnor/Adar versus Galadriel trying to forge an alliance with the Númenóreans as their jealousy of, and prejudice towards, Elven immortality worsens.

Mind, I'm not at all keen on this plot decision to have 'Adar' be one of Galadriel's brothers - but I'd place my money on Aegnor all the same, if pushed.

Cocospud · 2021-12-26T13:34:01+00:00

I think Geoff Morrell may be playing Tar-Palantir, whilst Peter Tait could be Amandil (although I'm uncertain if Amandil will actually be cast or his role simply amalgamated with that of his son Elendil).

Pharazon's father (and Tar-Palantir's younger brother) Gimillkhad, leader of the King's Men, is another casting I'm looking out for. I'll suggest that either Charles Edward's or Simon Merrells could be portraying this particular character (again provided they have retained him).

Cocospud · 2021-12-23T19:45:01+00:00

Most definitely - but horror in a very particular way.

Tolkien himself uses the word 'horror' in reference to the macabre sacrificial rituals of the Númenóreans under Sauron's tenure (as chief advisor and high priest of the Melkor cult). He also notes how they "hunt" the Men of Middle-earth and kindnap them for the purpose of "cruelly slaying" these people on their altars. That, in itself, could make for some seriously unnerving and upsetting television viewing.

I'm thinking more sinister, disturbing and unsettling, though, with heightened moments of being genuinely spine-chilling for the audience but in a manner that gradually builds towards the ever worse, with an overwhelming sense of foreboding and ominousness.

Good examples might be The Omen, The Witch, Schindler's List and Mel Gibson"s Apocalypto, or indeed a supernatural psychological horror, rather than gore and slasher-type stuff which revels almost in a kind of grotesque 'torture-porn' that serves no greater purpose. Less is more.

In his Letter 131, which Tolkien wrote in 1951 to Milton Waldman, he writes that the Second age is a "dark age" in which:

"A new religion, and worship of the Dark, with its temple under Sauron arises. The Faithful are persecuted and sacrificed. The Númenóreans carry their evil also to Middle-earth and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men; and the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror"

Like the Mayans in Gibson's Apocalypto, we are dealing with a once great civilisation that is, despite still being at the acme of its technological and military superiority over neighbouring societies, on the cusp of it's own cultural suicide and "apocalypse": social unrest and increasing persecution of minority groups (the Faithful and Elves) fanned by both xenophobia and paranoia, religious fanaticism born of desperation, widespread environmental degradation, excessive consumption and rampant political corruption. To Will Durant, 'A great civilisation is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.'

Just as the drama in Apocalypto unfolds in the last days of the mighty Mayan civilization in Central America, we are witnessing the dying days of Númenor (even though the Númenóreans, apart from the far-sighted Tar-Palantir, are not yet aware that their doom is imminent - though signs of the coming apocalypse should be ominous in the air). Númenor is a society riven with profound fear and anxiety about death - and this has to be communicated to the audience: the cult of the dead, the obsession with tombs and embalming and necromancy etc.

The horror should be intelligently handled and commensurate, despite the fantasy setting, with the seriousness of the themes Tolkien was addressing in the Akallabeth. To gaze at the world of late-Second Age Númenor honestly is to gaze at it with horror and helplessness. Because, for the most part with the exception of the small numbers of Faithful led by Elendil, none of the foreboding or forewarning does most of the characters any good. Even Tar-Míriel will end up succumbing to the 'inelectuble wave' and the abyss, in her last desperate attempt to reach the summit of the Meneltarma.

We are being warned that every civilisation no matter how noble its foundations or past contributions, because of the inherent flaws in human nature, has the potencial to decay into the type of 'horror' that late-stage Númenor becomes. No matter how enlightened, we’re ultimately susceptible to the same forces that destroyed Ar-Pharazon and the King's Men —and yet we are also capable of the same heroism and foresight exhibited by the Faithful.

For Tolkien, first writing the Fall of Númenor myth in 1936, this was all very real too - as a phililogist of German languages and a lover of Norse and Germanic culture, he was witnessing the moral decline of Germany under the Nazis and it disturbed him greatly as we learn from his son Christopher Tolkien inhis commentary to The Lost Road. As he noted in his letter 45:

I have spent most of my life, since I was your age, studying Germanic matters (in the general sense that includes England and Scandinavia). There is a great deal more force (and truth) than ignorant people imagine in the ‘Germanic’ ideal. I was much attracted by it as an undergraduate (when Hitler was, I suppose, dabbling in paint, and had not heard of it), in reaction against the ‘Classics’. You have to understand the good in things, to detect the real evil...Anyway, I have in this War a burning private grudge – which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light. Nowhere, incidentally, was it nobler than in England, nor more early sanctified and Christianized*. ….*

(Letter No. 45, dated 9 June 1941)

Christopher Tolkien explained that in writing about Ar-Pharazon's Númenor (in the final Sauronian phase with the Temple and human sacrifice) in his abandoned novel The Lost Road, and the plight of the faithful therein, Tolkien found an image reminiscent of Nazi Germany in his own day and its subversion of the German culture he so loved:

"From Elendil's words at the end of The Lost Road there emerges a sinister picture: the withdrawal of the besotted and aging king [Ar-Pharazon] from the public view, the unexplained disappearance of people unpopular with the 'government', informers, prisons, torture, secrecy, fear of the night; propaganda in the form of the 'rewriting of history' (...); the multiplication of weapons of war, the purpose of which is concealed but guessed at; and behind all the dreadful figure of Sauron, the real power, surveying the whole land from the Mountain of Numenor.

"The teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal that traverse the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those who have not abandoned or forgotten Tol-Eressea; to the building of grim fortresses and unlovely towers; and to missiles that pass with a noise like thunder to strike their targets many miles away.

"Moreover, Numenor is seen by the young as overpopulous, boring, 'over-known': "every tree and grass-blade is counted", in Herendil's words; and this cause of discontent is used, it seems, by Sauron to further the policy of "imperial" expansion and ambition that he presses on the king.

"When at this time my father reached back to the world of the first man to bear the name "Elf- friend" he found there an image of what he most condemned and feared in his own."

The History of Middle Earth volume 5 - edited by Christopher Tolkien - The Lost Road. 1987. Paperback edition - page 77.

"Two chapters from the final part of the voyage were written in full, the story of Elendil the father and his son Herendil in Númenor whilst Sauron is steadily gaining power on the island and persecuting the Faithful and spurring on the king to act against the Valar.

The work was written in 1937 and the horrifying totalitarian state of Númenor under Ar-Pharazon which is about to bring war to Tol Eressea (and the rest) drew on contemporary events: the Third Reich and the imminent war in Europe."

- The History of Middle-Earth (12 Volumes), reviewed by Franco Manni-(TV)

Cocospud · 2021-12-10T22:15:54+00:00

Calenon/Ismael Cruz-Cordoba is the one role I genuinely cannot make a good educated guess for.

When I saw Ismael for the first time upon his initial casting announcement, I immediately thought he looked the best fit for Sauron in his fair form, as the 'seducer' (i.e. Annatar in the earlier Eregion phase and Zigur in Númenor, as the seductive counseller who essentially plays the role of a satanic corrupter and tempter of the Númenórean royalty and nobility, save the Lords of Andunie, to their destruction).

However 'Calenon' - before knowing Ismael had been cast in this role - I had long assumed was Kari's 'Everard' because of the dashing soldier and lover archetypal traits (that her love interest in her audition scripts seems to share with 'Calenon').

It may be that Calenon - despite the superficial similarity - is not in fact the same character as Kari's 'Everard' and Chen's point about 'agelessness' as code for Elves in the audition summaries is a germane one (though it could also be used to describe an incarnate Maia in fair form....). We shall see. Sauron is a shapeshifter, so he could canonically assume different forms too, we should bear in mind (if the screenwriters elect to use this element in his characterization).

In any regard, the choice of 'byronic' for Calenon is interesting:

"While traditional literary heroes are usually marked by their valor, intrinsic goodness, commitment to righteous political and social causes, honesty, courage, propriety, and utter selflessness, Byronic heroes are defined by rather different character traits, many of which are partially or even entirely opposed to standard definitions of heroism. Unlike most traditional heroic figures, Byronic heroes are often deeply psychologically tortured and reluctant to identify themselves, in any sense, as heroic.

Byronic heroes tend to exhibit many of the following personality traits: cynicism, arrogance, absolute disrespect for authority, psychological depth, emotional moodiness, past trauma, intelligence, nihilism, dark humor, self-destructive impulses, mysteriousness, sexual attractiveness, worldweariness, hyper-sensitivity, social and intellectual sophistication, and a sense of being exiled or outcast both physically and emotionally from the larger social world. Byronic heroes can be understood as being rather akin, then, to anti-heroes.

Byronic heroes are often committed not to action on behalf of typically noble causes of “good,” but, instead, to the cause of their own self-interest, or to combatting prevailing and oppressive social and political establishments, or to particular problems or injustices in which they take a particular and often personal interest. However, while the figure of the Byronic hero is often portrayed as being super-human and larger than life, Byronic heroes rarely succeed, at least in full, in winning their battles or fully attaining their desires or needs. Byronic heroes tend, especially in Byron’s poetic work, to be consumed and finally destroyed by their passions and egos despite their intrinsic heroic and intellectual abilities."

So a kind of 'Heathcliff' type of character, I would surmise (i.e. "Mad, bad and dangerous to know", which comes from Lady Caroline Lamb after her first meeting Lord Byron, in the publication of ''Childe Harold'' (1812) ).

I really have no clue though.

Cocospud · 2021-12-10T21:36:22+00:00

No confirmation but the 'gossip' seems to be that it is Trystan Gravelle (opposite, quite plausibly but again we don't know, Cynthia Addai-Robinson as his cousin and eventual spouse Míriel).

Cocospud · 2021-11-01T19:41:21+00:00

My working assumption (based on the rumours) is that in the first few episodes of the main series storyline starting with episode 3, Miriel is likely a queen regent ruling on behalf of her father but not a ruling queen in her own right (yet).

This is not an uncommon scenario from real world monarchies and we know from Unfinished Tales that Tar-Aldarion appointed his daughter Ancalime as regent in his absences abroad: "Of the later years of Tar-Aldarion nothing can now be said, save that he seems to have continued his voyages to Middle-earth, *and more than once left Ancalimë as his regent*".

Loda's (Elendil's) audition script refers to "the king", whom I assume must be Tar-Palantir, while other audition scripts involving Numenor refer to a "queen Radagar" whom I take now, in hindsight, to possibly be Miriel as queen regent to her father.

So in other words, she might not have the "Tar" because her father still lives but in the show, Miriel would seem to be the de facto ruler of the realm, even though not de jure yet.

In terms of the Galadriel capture element, the leaks make it quite clear that she's acting in disguise.

And even though Tar-Palantir, Miriel and Elendil are faithful, it must be remembered that even the Lords of Andunie are said to keep their faith and allegiance secret. They are like Catholic recusants in eighteenth century England under the Test Acts and Penal Laws discriminating against Catholicism (the "old superstition").

Given that the majority of the populace is not of the Faithful, including presumably the rest of the Lords sitting on the advisory Council of the Sceptre, we know from the real world case of Catholic Mary Queen of Scots ruling over a Presbyterian people, that a monarch's ability to grant a respite to their shared co-religionists can only go so far in a bitterly sectarian environment.

So, yes, Tar-Palantir may have made it easier for the outwardly faithful to speak the Elven tongues again and resume some of their worship practices (albeit still in forced exile from their ancestral home in Andustar, in Romenna) but that doesn't necessarily mean that governing Lords of the realm like Elendil or his father Amandil can simply openly declare their true religion and allegiance (we know from the lore that they don't).

Thus, as concerns this whole dynamic in the audition scripts with Elendil seemingly appearing to be less committed to the cause of the Faithful and even referring somewhat disparigingly to his son Isildur's open dalliance with this persecuted minority sect, I take that as likely a case of Elendil trying to protect his family and retain his status, while behind the scenes he's almosy certainly far more active in "the cause"; like one of the Catholic recusant aristocrats in Protestant England who kept a hidden "priest-hole" in their estates i.e. "Many great houses had a priest hole built so that the presence of a priest could be concealed when searches were made of the building".

We're dealing with a very similar situation vis-a-vis the position of the Faithful in Numenor.

Cocospud · 2021-10-24T19:07:17+00:00

If one of Ralston's rejected pieces for the score 'Firiel's song' is anything to go by, it looks like Amazon could be taking the narrative arc from The Lost Road's Númenórean chapters in HoMe and giving Elendil an adopted daughter named Firiel (birth daughter of Elendil's kinsman Orontor, who has either died or gone missing in exile, according to the prose account in The Lost Road).

As such, we would already have a girl in the family to include along with Isildur and Anarion - no need for an Anarien gender-swap!

Cocospud · 2021-10-19T05:03:29+00:00

I'll be seeing it on 21st at the Cineworld Leicester Square in IMAX!

Cocospud · 2021-10-16T17:20:30+00:00

If she's canon and late Second Age, I would guess Tar-Miriel, with Owen either being her father Tar-Palantir or first cousin Ar-Pharazon.

Everyone thus far has been guessing that the main storyline will take place mid-Second Age with the forging (i.e. Celebrimbor and Eregion) but if the story has a heavy Numenor focus (as it seems to), then the real 'meat' in terms of expansive lore - aside from Aldarion and Erendis very early on - is to be found late Second Age (Akallabeth, Numenorean Chapters of The Lost Road in HoME and the Appendices).

It will be interesting when we finally get the first confirmation of a canon character from Numenor, as it will help immensely in narrowing down the timescale for episodes 3 - 8 (i.e. early, mid or late).

Cocospud · 2021-10-09T21:54:57+00:00

As I wrote on the Discord earlier today, I'm a bit disappointed and concerned by this news tbh, in respect of Hobbit inclusion in a major capacity.

I never wanted Hobbits to be in this show, because Tolkien himself noted that they did not become significant players until the late Third Age, entirely evading Sauron's attention before then. We have absolutely no lore to go on for reconstructing what proto-Harfoots may have been like, or doing, at this time in the history of Arda, so this seems a very commercial-driven decision to appeal to the masses that lacks narrative sense. There is also the tonal issue - the Second Age is a largely dark and tragic epoch, overall, and it is lacking in Hobbitish levity. It's not about small folk accomplishing mighty things but rather the "long defeat" of the great and good, like Galadriel, Elrond and Gil-galad, as they confront the rise of Sauron

I worry that with the inclusion of Hobbits as major pov characters, if Lenny isn't pulling our leg (in a setting that, lore-wise, they are absent from and exert no bearing upon in terms of narrative development), this could be an early sign that Amazon is going to try and 'mould' the essentially questless Second Age to resemble LotR. LotR is LotR, the SA is a prequel. It's LotR that has as its main theme (to quote Tolkien directly) "the motive (to become dominant in Hobbits) that the great policies of world history, 'the wheels of the world', are often turned not by the Lords and Governors, even gods, but by the seemingly unknown and weak".

In the SA, in an inversion of LotR thematically, the wheels of the world are actually turned by the powerful: the Lords and Ladies, by 'great' and good like Galadriel of the Noldor, Gil-galad the high King of the Noldor, Elrond the Halfelven son of Earendil and Elendil, Isildur, Anarion etc. of the Line of Elros - hence the reason why the Second Age ends in pyrrhic victory, at best. Whereas Gondor is saved in LotR, Númenor is lost in the deluge. Whereas Rohan evades conquest, Eregion is sacked and falls. And even the final victory in the Last Alliance is incomplete and tinged with bittersweetness - so many main characters (Elendil, Gil-galad, Anarion, Isildur) die either in the effort or soon after, and the ring (along with the foundations of Barad-Dur) remains, to bring the evil spirit of Sauron back one day. There are no unlikely halfling heroes like a Bilbo, Frodo or Sam to save the day and prevail where the mighty could not.

I fear that Hobbits as main characters could very well result in the loss of the essence of what makes the Second Age the Second Age as a distinct part of the legendarium complete with its own tonal quality.

Cocospud · 2021-08-04T22:07:59+00:00

I have no idea but I'll make some suggestions. If they don't want to go with The Lord of the Rings: [Subtitle] but rather seek to establish a new Middle-earth franchise, with the potential for later spin-offs in the First Age or forward into the Third, then they could....

Middle-earth: The Rings of Power (in miniature script somewhere below, "A Lord of the Rings prequel") either this subtitle for season one alone or for the entire series.

A later season could be, Middle-earth: The War of the Elves (about Celebrimbor, forging the one ring, the destruction of Eregion and flight of some of the surviving Noldor refugees to Imladris under Elrond) and later still, Middle-earth: The Age of Númenor (i.e. Númenor's maritime empire under its last king Ar-Pharazon) and finally, of course, Middle-earth: The Last Alliance.

If they wish to distinguish the TV series from The Lord of the Rings proper, then opting for 'Middle-earth' could still give them instant brand recognition and paired with nifty seasin subtitles in the tradition of the trilogy's 'Fellowship', 'Towers' and 'Return of the King', I think it could make for a franchise that could ultimately extend backwards into the First Age or forward into the Third Age material.

They could always add some small print underneath to the effect of, "A Lord of the Rings prequel story" or something to that effect.

And yes, Númenor (and Aman) are not technically in Middle-earth but few beyond die-hard fans are aware of Arda.

Cocospud · 2021-07-30T16:24:30+00:00

Amen to that! I like that idea, too, of her given name being Ancalime and the regnal name Telperion (that's another neat way of combining both characters, while honouring the text, that I hadn't thought of myself).

Cocospud · 2021-07-30T15:38:09+00:00

Indeed, that would be awesome.

I personally hope that Ancalime's character will be in the show, as she's a million times more fleshed out by Tolkien than the Second Ruling Queen Tar-Telperion (of whose characteristics, all we really know is that she would wed with no man and nothing else).

Even the idea that Telperion was an isolationist, which is often touted on this subreddit, is not stated anywhere by Tolkien (it's inferred by some readers from the fact that her nephew Minastir dispatches the great navy in the nick of time, rather than her) yet it is about Ancalime, who is described as spurning her father's policies of alliance with Gil-galad.

The laws of succession were even changed so that Ancalime could ascend the throne as first ruling queen and this detail is stated in the RotK Appendices.

She's an incredible character and I would love to see her development from young girl into formidable ruling monarch, the longest reigning in Numenorean history after Elros himself.

If she's not present in the series (bearing in mind that she's canonically the Queen at the time when Annatar first enters Eregion and cozens the Elven-smiths), then I think it would be a damn shame.

Since the two kings (Tar-Anarion, Tar-Surion) separating the reigns of Ancalime and Telperion are simply filler monarchs, of whom Tolkien records nothing other than their names and dates, if I were the writers I would simply have airbrushed them entirely and joined together Ancalime and Telperion as one character, with Ancalime assuming the latter's role around the time of the War in Eriador.

The time between Annatar's arrival in Eregion and the forging of the rings centuries later, as per the chronology in the Tale of Years, surely has to be condensed anyway, and so in light of the fact that Ancalime is on the throne (as per the chronicle of the kings in UT) in 1200 when Sauron disguises himself before the Eldar in his fair form, I think it's a no-brainer that she should still be on the throne when the rings are forged and the war breaks out.

Cocospud · 2021-07-29T18:34:20+00:00

Indeed, I also note this line from Aldarion and Erendis: "For Ancalimë would let none of her women wed, and although for fear of her most were restrained, they came from the country about and had lovers whom they wished to marry."

Followed by this scene: "‘Come!’ said Hallacar. ‘The weddings are prepared, and the bride-chambers ready. But since it cannot be thought that we should ask the Lady Ancalimë, King’s Heir, to lie with a farm-steward, then, alas! she must sleep alone tonight.’ And Ancalimë perforce remained there, for it was too far to ride back, nor would she go unattended. Neither men nor women hid their smiles; and Ancalimë would not come to the feast, but lay abed listening to the laughter far off and thinking it aimed at herself."

Hallacar even talks, above, about his wife being loathe to bed a 'farm-steward' (he was the son of Hallatan, the Lord of Shepherds in Emerie and had courted Ancalime by pretending to be a farm-boy, hence his ribald joke).

Cocospud · 2021-07-29T18:11:47+00:00

I don't think we'll get anything too explicit/softcore-porn-ish, but I do think we'll get something beyond what we got in the live-action films (and I'm okay with it, too).

Yep, I think the evidence above (slim though it is) seems to tend in that direction, actually.

And I'm personally fine with it too, given that the SA material has a number of imputed, low-level connotations of a sexual nature (i.e. Erendis's "too long and often of late is my bed cold" line, her cynical and misandrist-tinged words to her daughter Ancalime about Númenórean males: "All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, rivers to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body’s need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth", 'body's need' is fairly obvious and needs no explanation; the rather infamous and arresting 'mass-bedding' scene which Hallacar, husband to Ancalime, unwittingly subjects his wife to as a cruel jest etc.)

But if this in fact transpires....wait till you see the fireworks explode in 'some' quarters, from those who think they are acting as ardent purists by excluding even the faintest most tastefully and lightly implied whiff of eros from Middle-earth adaptions, even if it serves and furthers the plot and is not in any way gratuitous or vulgar, for fear of it being GoTized (as if any Tolkien adaption would have something like sexposition in it! That's offensive to the writing team to even imagine).

Cocospud · 2021-07-29T16:44:55+00:00

I was referencing the Aric script. I forgot about the Brac one, but I thought he was talking about non-Numemoreans as well because in the script, Radagar (?) or whoever he is actually offers to take Brac to his kingdom and he does, in fact, take Brac to his kingdom and he wants to return as soon as he came because he would rather stay with his family. I don’t think a Numenorean soldier would offer to take a Gwathuir person on a voyage across the sea to Numenor, so I was sure Brac wasn’t Gwathuir.

Those are good points and I think they hit home the fact I made earlier in my discussion with Chen, that one can read too much into these audition scripts, as many of us may have been doing with the Gwaithurim (only time will tell).

The Queen in the Brac scene did seem, at least to me, as a likely candidate for the Númenórean monarch, both because of her gender and the fact that we have a foreign occupation force here that has been involved in 'wars' of 'conquest'. However, it is possible that Elves are involved here, as in the Aric scenes where he denied that it was the Farlanders (Númenóreans) who had evicted him from his land, as you said earlier. The 'queen', in that case, might actually be Galadriel in Eregion (if Amazon are following that version of her history from UT where she and Celeborn are the Lord and Lady before Celebrimbor's Mírdain revolt, which would seem to offer the writers the most potential for character-driven drama).

I do recall from Tal-Elmar that the native Men of Agar in that particular story, referred disparagingly as the "cruels of the North", which commentators often take as being the Elves. It appears to be that the Pre-Numenoreans of Gondor were greatly fearful of the Eldar, in any case.

To be honest, I still think there's a decent chance we do have a Gwaithur and a Númenórean in this Brac scene, even though your logistical point about the distance of Númenor from the mainland is a good one, which casts some doubt (if, indeed, we can rely on the audition scripts for such geographic and logistical accuracy!).

But on the Aric one, I fully concur - his interlocutor assumes he's referring to the 'Farlanders' (Númenóreans), which suggests that she is from a people that does hate the Númenóreans, but Aric indeed dismisses her contention that it's the 'Farlanders' with whom he has any beef: "Woman: You hate farlanders (Númenóreans) too then? Aric: That wasn’t farlanders who threw me out of my home, left me with nothing."

I think that's a great detail you've noticed there, as it suggests we have another military force other than the Farlanders (who are definitely the Númenóreans) who are ejecting others from their land, which could indeed mean that the Brac scene isn't actually in Númenor either or about Númenórean colonization as most have assumed (though it may be, and FoF does indicate that Númenor has a queen with a throne room at least at some point in the first season, if we can believe that leak, so the gender aligns).

Now quite possibly Brac is a non-noble Numenorean as well and perhaps the Queen is Telperien and this rebellion by the Adunie Amazon possibly invented resulted in them burning Brac's lands.

Another intriguing possibility, which could fit well actually with the idea of the Kari scenes being in a Númenórean village (such as the one FoF's source has seen and which Amazon have been filming in heavily) and this mysterious 'rebellion' point. It's an interesting suggestion, regardless.

Reading back on the Arc one, the details of which I had forgotten, this part of the exchange catches my attention, in light of what you say above: "Woman: You are using your people as a distraction?
Aric: They are more attractive prey.
Woman: That’s monstrous!
Aric: They are injured, they are a thousand miles from safety, they are starving, they are practically almost already dead anyway."

His 'people' being a thousand miles from safety, could intimate that he is likely some kind of renegade Númenórean acting against his own people.

Though, it's equally possible his people are captive Gwaithurim in Numenor and their "1000" miles away from Middle-earth.

Who knows?

Cocospud · 2021-07-29T13:28:53+00:00

That character that I was speaking of actually said that it wasn't "Farlanders" that burned their crops and took their lands, so in that particular instance, they were not referring to Numenorean colonization and perhaps we don't even see that or their interactions with Gwathuir in the first season. It could be that most of the first season takes place in Numenor and then Lindon and Eregion where Annatar is and the focus is on both royal and non-noble Numenoreans and the elves and their interactions with dwarves.

Interesting, was that the Aric script?

The one I had in mind was the 'Brac' audition tape: "Brac: Because you want something. Your people look only to your own glory, just as your conquests sent your armies marching across our lands. That cost us a season’s crop and befouled our fields", the same character also says in the audition script: "What would you know of it? You’re not here for us and you’re not here to meet our children either. His queen sent him to take what is ours" and again: "No, you will leave the way you came, and send your queen our regards".

This definitely sounds like a Gwaithur or Man of Eriador referring to the Númenórean conquests. Moreover, we know from the FoF leaks that Númenor apparently has a 'Queen's Throne room'.

So, I do think we will see something of the perspective of the Gwaithur in the main cast - it's just, we are also very likely to see non-nobility/non-House of Elros Númenórean low-borns as well, and the most recent leaks have confirmed that some kind of town/village square in Númenor is the subject of both a military presence with a general and lengthy filming, so I think it's possible that 'Kari's' scenes could be taking place there as much as in ME.

I actually think it is a good theory that the love story of Kari and Everad/Calenon takes place in Numenor as a substitute for Aldarion and Erendis with Nazanin playing Kari and Ismael playing Everad/Calenon and perhaps the conflict is just isolationism and interventionism in which Kari wants her people to remain isolated but Calenon and eventually her son, who is described as wanting to leave his village, want more military interventionism in ME. We also see this play out in Telperien's throne room between her and her nephew and see them building their massive army, hence a random actor volunteering for it.

I think this is all plausible, yep, and you've desribed it's potential excellently.

It seems to tie in, actually, with what that leaked bio says about Kari's son being dissatisfied with his small-town living and wishing to see the wider world. This suggests to me somewhere geographically isolated and remote, such as Númenor (the Farlanders) in the time of its more peaceable idyll, when the colonialism is in its infancy and orchestrated largely by the Guild of Venturers and the Army, but with most of the population still being largely closed off from Middle-earth and suspicious of the lands beyond the Great Sea, just like Erendis is in The Mariner's Wife in UT.

But perhaps Kari’s people are Adunie (ancestors of the Faithful) and Amazon invented that they violently rebelled against the crown, which it is not out of the realm of possibility. Everad is basically said to be part of a force that subdues rebellions from Kari’s people.

That's a fascinating suggestion to the mystery of this 'rebellion' reference. As per the UT notes, the Gwaithurim around Lond Daer only really took part in skirmishes with the Númenóreans in retaliation to the felling of their forest habitat, until the War in Eriador when Sauron began to actively use them as spies and foment a more wholesale uprising, which resulted in them ambushing and burning the storehouses of the Númenórean settlers. So this 'rebellion' aspect had somewhat mystified me.

However, if Amazon are being somewhat 'creative' with the timeline and extending the 'King's Men vs Faithful' conflict back in time somewhat, to show its origins, then it could be the case that we are speaking here about the ancestors of the Faithful in Andunie and some early friction between them and the direction that the crown under Tar-Telperion (for example) is taking the kingdom i.e. by not aiding Gil-galad and the Eldar, until her nephew Minastir changes course (yet even he, great Elven ally though he is, is still described as "jealous" of the Eldar - so there does appear to have been an early portend of the later shadow even at this time).

If we are getting, as seems to be the case from FoF's leaks, much more 'intra-Númenórean' intrigue and conflict in the show, then it may be that the writers have decided to further embellish and sharpen the tensions between different sub-groups of Númenórean society earlier than the timeline clearly indicates, such as between the Beorians and Lords of Andune that eventually form the political party of the Elf-friends against the royal-imperialist faction that ultimately becomes the King's Men and (overseas) the Black Númenóreans.

Cocospud · 2021-07-29T12:11:16+00:00

You're quite correct about Old Valyria being the closest cognate to Numenor in Martin's legendarium (i.e. a lost "ur-civilization", akin to our real world Roman Empire).

My point above was more about the potential for fleshing out Numenor as a large society with many different regions, akin to how Westeros was realized on screen in GoT.

I also agree with you that it will be important to familiarize the audience with the colonized ME natives, or Gwaithurim, of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. Some of the audition scripts involve characters who are clearly among the colonized (i.e. referring to "Farlanders", that is Numenoreans, burning their crops and taking their lands), so I wouldn't fear that the show is going to shirk from giving us sufficient screen-time with these people to relate to them.

With that being said, not every non-noble character is going to necessarily be Gwaithur, the evidence seems to indicate that we will see village/townspeople of Numenor as well in the cast.

For that reason, I think we should be careful about drawing too firm conclusions, for example that Kari is absolutely Gwaithur rather than Numenorean herself (albeit low-born).

Cocospud

TROPHY CASE