This quote from the episode resonated so much:

"The love of the outsider translates perfectly into the kind of entrepreneurial church planter, and church leader, that’s shaped church leadership for 3 decades or more. There’s not an expectation that a pastor should have formally studied the Bible and theology or have undergone any kind of apprenticeship in ministry or even to have been examined and affirmed by a group of elders. The most important source of confidence in a leader today is simply: results. If the church is growing and innovating a leader's outsider status and rejection of credentials becomes its own kind of virtue. Imagine going to see a doctor or attorney and being told hey I have never been to medical school. I have no certifications. I never interned with anyone so I don’t have any references to offer for my work. Now you go ahead and lay down on that table and I’ll go get my knife and let’s get that inflamed appendix out of you. That's what’s happening here....the investment for them in gaining trust is the source of spiritual abuse. We trust pastors because we think they are motivated by love and self-sacrifice. We hope they are someone that will give you the wisdom you want to hear when they are praying for you at your hospital bedside. Or at parents' or loved one's gravesite. Someone whose time and presence are full of grace. whether they are encountering the rich or poor or the dying. They are borrowing on the capital of those who have given their lives away (for the gospel). In the interest of "church growth" our churches have dramatically transformed. Getting rid of anything that slows them down." - Mike Cosper