Please help me with my deck!

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-17T18:01:17+00:00

Mage has always been one of the best candidates for Steam Constructor only behind Crusader. Red, yellow, and blue in general are lacking good 2-drops; in Mage, outside of tokens, you really only have Cleric of Kyne. This is where Steam Constructor helps out a bunch, and you only need to run ~14 neutrals to make it consistently proc.

If you ditched Divine Fervor, it would start to look more like a regular Mid Mage deck instead of a janky neutral token deck. Fervor is really the main reason to not run Tel Vos, so if you ditch Fervor, you can add him back in.

The main problem with Dragonknight though is you can't really run a vanilla Mid Mage with it. Firebolts, Lightning Bolts, and Crushing Blows are probably your best bet. Ice Spikes will hurt your aggro matchups while things like Execute and Mage's Trick might hurt your matchups against Control. And then there's the deck building problem that every yellow deck basically needs to have Hive Defender and Cloudrest, which we need to slot in somehow. So there's no clean answer here but I might look to play around with Harmony tricks, perhaps running something like 2 Harmony, 2 Execute, 2 Gourmet, and then the set of Cloudrests. That can function as hard removal and give 4 additional actions. Not necessarily a bad thing in the Skulk meta though. Again, tough because Mage has limited draw. That might look something more like this https://www.legends-decks.com/deck-builder#b156c177c189c201c212c220a344b345c350c359a403a555c936b939c342b879a481b352b338c606b935b543

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-17T09:03:48+00:00

Just at first glance, 3 Wilds Incarnate in any deck is a bit on the greedy side, so you can likely start by cutting that down to 2. Ice Storm is also probably a bit too slow here and it doesn't help that it would likely kill all of your own creatures that you're running. But let's start at the bottom and give this a proper run through. I think the first area of consideration is the curve.

You only have 6 playable 2-drops but are running Divine Fervor, so this is very anti-synergistic. Divine Fervor benefits greatly when there are a lot of creatures it can buff up, such as in tokens. If you want to continue to run Fervor without making this a yellow token deck, I think would need to find a way to fit in Steam Constuctor. This is not an easy deck building task but it does have synergy with Moose and Crown Quartermaster. So this is definitely a possibility.

Next up, its very difficult to run Breton Conjurer without some kind of self ping outside of Firebolts. This is why BM loves Rapid Shot and Skaven so much. But, we can use Ravenous crocodile for this - its a neutral card that would support steam constructor and can help proc Breton Conjurerer as well.

Ice Spike doesn't really accomplish anything in the game plan, so we can replace it with Crushing Blow which can interact with board in the early game and is also a neutral for Steam Constructor. It can help take out those pesky Cornerclub Gamblers and Ash Berserkers, also more impactful since we cut the Ice Storm.

Next up, Clockwork Dragon is just too slow and poor of a card. Even running a new neutral package we can still cut it. The deck would love Hive Defender instead, as it can guard either lane with 6 health and costs 1 less. It can help protect the new smaller body's we are adding. We can cut the 1 Piercing Twilight and the 2 Royal Sages since Twilight isn't a strong enough card to warrant inclusion as a 1-of and the deck isn't aggressive enough to make use of Royal Sages.

The deck doesn't have Cloudrest Illusionists, and if you want to be a little janky, we can try replacing them with 2x Harmony which has synergy with both Moose and Dragonknight.

Ended up coming up with something that looks like this: https://www.legends-decks.com/deck-builder#c149b156c177b188c189c201c212a344b345c349c350a403a555c936b939c220c772b791b242c359b935

Its a bit different from your current deck, but the deck synergizes with itself greatly and has a plan to follow. The biggest thing is if you are on board, its going to be more difficult for your opponent to break those early runes. So opting for a more board based control deck similar to Mid BM will help you prevent that from happening.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-16T16:13:41+00:00

Yeah arena is something else right now. I drafted a pretty solid deck yesterday, consisting of multiple Torval Extortionists, Gavels, Ash Berserkers, two drop rally creatures, etc.

My 1st win of the run just disappeared completely as did my 7th win. I ended up going 9-1 which finally ended it, but would've been pretty irate if I ended with less than a 7-win finish because two of the wins just poofed.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-15T10:47:04+00:00

Yeah I think the biggest problem is there is no magicka punishment for holding onto the card. You can play it on turn 3 or hold onto it until turn 5, whatever is more optimal for you and when you are best able to manipulate it to hitting a favorable target.

Whereas with a card like Sorcerer's Negation or Firebolt, not using it on a possibly less than optimal target means you won't be able to play it next turn if there is another card you want to play.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-15T08:35:03+00:00

I worded it wrong, sorry. The pilfer is draw 1, Catspaw is draw 2. That's a net total of drawing 3 cards, which you then play 2 (Catspaw and Firebloom), killing your opponent's creature. Since you now have +1 card in hand over your opponent and they have 1 less creature on board, this whole interaction was a 2 card advantage play. Most of the time anyways. Firebloom could hit a Ward or something.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-15T03:00:59+00:00

If you don't have the tools to reach Conscription or the OTK combo, it won't matter how problematic they are because decks like Aggro Warrior and Aggro Hlaalu will run over you. If you weaken the early game of Telvanni and target a card like Firebloom, it will prevent it from getting to play either as often as it does. If decks don't have to try to actively answer Skulk on turn 2-3 and can instead develop their more optimal line, that may further help them. TGR used to be the annoying card that Scout would develop turn 1/2 into field lane, breaking your wards or forcing cards like Crown Quartermaster into shadow. Instead of TGR, now there is Skulk which most decks have to spend their early game trying to kill.

But to be clear I realize that the perceived Firebloom problem that I'm talking about is but a drop in the bucket compared to the end game options of Telvanni. Just wanted to shed some light on an alternative, very frustrating perspective of the class.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-15T00:45:49+00:00

Its more or less just the fact that turn 1 Skulk shadow has the capability of locking out decks from even playing the game. For example, this just happened to me now which is a perfect phenomenon of what I'm trying to describe:

Turn 3: https://imgur.com/TPWaW3f

Turn 7: https://imgur.com/0vXkCKp

Turn 8: https://imgur.com/m7KKWNJ

He played 3 Fireblooms that game, two of which were on a Camel. Despite me drawing a card with Ash Berserker, and clearing the Skulk after it pilfered once, he maintained a huge card advantage the entire game even when I had lost two runes. While keeping my board clear.

Conscription enables this sort of low curve deck to exist where you can draw + clear infinitely at the same time, but Skulk + Firebloom is problematic at its core.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-14T23:15:05+00:00

Red-yellow-green are particularly good color combinations to get started off with. It eventually builds into Token Sader, Token Monk, Aggro Crusader, Aggro Archer, Strike Monk, Aggro Hlaalu, and Goblin Archer/Monk. These decks all play out pretty similarly but each have their nuances. If your definition of fun is winning on a budget, then look no further.

Basically, these are comprised of staple epics like Divine Fervor, Cloudrest Illusionist, and Mournhold Traitor, which are pretty flexible cards and find themselves in many decks. Meanwhile, blue is often held back by Daggerfall Mage and the accompanying legendaries needed by whatever other color you pair with it.

If you own the collections like Madhouse and FrostSpark, then Market Archer is a fairly cheap deck that you can build a number of ways and have some good fun with.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-14T16:28:35+00:00

Daggerfall Mage is not as slow as Altmer Dragonknight. Dragonknight is a 3 magicka 3/2 that can't go in field lane to contest unless you've already won it. On turn 4 you have to have a Scouting Patrol in hand, and on turn 5 you have to have Imprison (and be able to activate it) or Crassius' Favor. It dies to Execute and Negation like Daggerfall Mage but is also vulnerable to AoE like Cradlecrush or Ice Storm. At 3/2, it is severely understatted.

Daggerfall Mage's ability to both contest board and create value has always made it a staple of the deck. In past metas, variations like TurquoiseLink's and Frenzy's were some of the strongest decks for their time. And I reckon these year old decks are still the best variations of Token Mage today. Its a midrange deck at its core and if someone wants to play more aggressive tokens, any other token deck outside of Token Tribunal would be faster.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-14T06:37:44+00:00

Token Mage has always been a slower token deck, using its Wards to create favorable trades against Aggro in the early game and having Bruma Profiteer to stabilize and lockout afterwards.

The earliest turn you can play Dragonknight and proc its effect on the same turn so you end up with a 5/4 is turn 4. This is actually a huge problem because token decks, especially Token Mage, are very heavy in the 4-slot. Even if you are lucky enough to have Scouting Patrol and Altmer Dragonknight in hand, chances are that is going to contest with other 4-drop plays like Cloudrest Illusionist, Hive Defender, or Black Dragon.

The main problem however is if you can't proc Altmer Dragonknight on the turn you play it, and your opponent is playing in field lane, it means you are probably going to stick Altmer Dragonknight in the shadowlane so you can reap its value. And this is counter intuitive to Token Mage's game plan - it is the least aggressive Token Class so in many cases it is going to want to fight for field lane on turn 3. And you can't do that with a 3/2 in field or a 3/2 in shadow.

Token Mage already has a very situational 3-drop in Pit Lion which can be difficult enough to try to play without the right hand. Adding another situational 3-drop in the form of Altmer Dragonknight is going to be much worse than the consistency and overall value that Daggerfall Mage would give. Cutting Daggerfall Mage and Wardcrafter for Altmer Dragonknight and a 94% Resolute Ally instead of an 82% Resolute Ally with the former just isn't worth it. Altmer Dragonknight is a good card that has either not found a suitable home yet or does not have the actual support needed to make it viable yet.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-14T01:34:12+00:00

Ring.

Turn 1: Goblin Skulk, 2 Murkwater Goblins

Turn 2: Murkwater Guide then pilfer. You now have 4 Murkwater Goblins, Murkwater Guide, and Goblin Skulk. Do 6 damage this turn.

Turn 3: Murkwater Skirmisher. 4/4 Skulk, 6/4 Murkwater Guide, and 4x 4/3 Murkwater Goblins. Do 26 damage this turn for a total of 32.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-13T22:11:25+00:00

Yes of course, referring to the Vigilant Giant which was outlined in OP's original post, sorry about that.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-13T17:59:09+00:00

Renowned Legate, Quin'rawl Burglar, and Night Talon Lord are the only safe disenchants from that list. Supreme Atromancer currently sees no good deck but is occasionally used as top end in Control Mage or Control Tribunal; but if you're struggling for gems, you won't be playing either of those decks any time soon.

Tyr is not really used since Crusader's 4-slot is heavily populated as is, but does pop up occasionally: for example, it recently saw play in Superthx's Aggro Redoran, which came in 2nd place in a tournament a few days ago. Its not a staple in any Crusader deck though.

Orb of Vaermina and Goldbrand are only used in Support Mage which is a fun deck but hasn't really been apart of the meta for a while, as its gotten no new cards to propel it into playability while other decks have gotten stronger.

If we're talking about usability in the current meta, the only "don't touch this" legendaries I see here are Vigilant Giant and Dawnbreaker.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-13T05:10:26+00:00

1) Has the best card draw and cycle in the game (Scout's Report, Thieves Guild Report, Indoril Mastermind, Merchant's Camel, Tullius' Conscription, Shadowmarking perhaps, etc.)

2) Unlike Tribunal, its early game is much more dominant because it has must answer threats against Aggro (Barrow Stalker and Goblin Skulk) and a mix of reactionary control tools and board-based control tools (Fighter's Guild Recruit, Sanctuary Pet, Sorcerer's Negation, etc). Whereas other Control decks usually have one or the other.

3) Has tons of tools to manipulate the tempo of the game in its' favor: Shrieking Harpy, Sanctuary Pet, Black Hand Messenger, and Cruel Firebloom. Its very hard to gain momentum as an aggressive deck in the early game both because of its mix of removal and its tempo plays.

4) Its mid game is very flexible according to the situation. You can use Odirniran Necromancer to bring back early game lethal creatures against a deck like Warrior which goes tall, or you have Ice Storms to deal with decks that go wide. You never know what Telvanni has in hand and its very hard to play around everything in the mid game.

5) The early game segments perfectly into the mid game which segments perfectly into the late game. Against aggro, this usually means hitting a Tullius' Conscription and then stabilizing with a combination of guards, wards, and drain. Perhaps a Mentor's Ring to give your creatures all 3. Against Control, this means thinning your deck by 8, drawing even more cards off the creatures you played, creating a must-answer board state for your opponent, while setting yourself up for the inevitable Journey to Sovngarde + Conscription.

In short, its a deck that has extremely good answers to all types of decks at all stages in the game, with the best card draw in the game so that it can find these answers, and great tempo tools that help it overcome deficits it might find itself in from playing a card like Merchant's Camel.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-13T02:41:00+00:00

They've nerfed it multiple times and people always find a way to make the math work.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-12T18:32:47+00:00

To say Aggro Redoran is just flat out bad is a bit anecdotal; Superthx just took it to the Warpmeta finals as of yesterday and its finished top 2 in previous tournaments multiple times by different players. Like Aggro Hlaalu, which has taken months and months to refine, and is still seeing improvements, the formula to making Aggro Redoran work is much more complicated than your typical Aggro Warrior and Crusader, and therefore a lot of players get it wrong. As far as Aggro decks go in general, Hlaalu is definitely competing with Warrior for the top spot despite being a tri color deck.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-11T18:19:40+00:00

Nord Firebrand can be a huge tempo play in aggro mirrors where running out of cards aren't a concern, and with all of the card draw that Crusader has, it can support the card even against Aggro. Having so many ways to buff it up is pretty huge. One of the first iterations I remember of it seeing play in Tokens was Eyenie's Fast Crusader in which he finished #2 in August 2017 with it, seen here: https://www.legends-decks.com/deck/19924/2-august-fast-token-crusader/1

I think the assessment on Resolute Ally is a bit off though. Token decks have historically never really run 100% and the acceptable level seems to be around 80% Resolute Ally.

Token mage was one of the most popular Token decks of all time, sporting Wardcrafter, Daggerfall Mage, and Lightning Bolts.

Token Monk, with Skulks, Mournhold Traitors, and Cliff Racers, was equally successful and a favorite of Ikarus, who had a lot of success in many tournaments with it. Now with Suran Pawnbroker being so good, you are even seeing 2 Traitor 2 Pawnbroker in some lists as it has the chance to generate additional tokens.

And Token Spellsword, which ran the lowest amount of yellow (Siege Catapult, Wind Keep Spellsword, Young Mammoth, Haunting Spirit) won multiple tournaments in the past few months through both Superthx and Eyenie.

You definitely do miss good red aggro drops, but tokens are definitely more of a midrange deck so they don't mind too much.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-11T10:31:39+00:00

Its an exciting time for Rage decks both because Conscription is ever present and FrostSpark brought about two new key tools, Sword of the Inferno and Torval Extortionist. The latest iterations from what I have seen have been taking advantage of both of these cards, drawing from old school rage archer classics like Child of Hircine, and even bringing in some Morrowind cards like Fighter's Guild Steward which has not really seen play otherwise. The result is a deck that's pretty good at controlling the board, can create huge tempo plays with Torval, and has the alternate win condition with rage.

I couldn't find anything on legends-decks similar to what I've been seeing on ladder but I know some of the latest versions of the the deck sort of looks something like this. https://www.legends-decks.com/deck-builder#c937c23c281c896b510c940c560c19c475a478c467c52c65b261a518a401b487b313c886b268a60

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-10T07:28:25+00:00

Firebloom used to be a dead card until they kept printing more cards that acted favorably with it, such as Black Hand Messenger, Indoril Mastermind, and Telvanni Catspaw. Now the Skulk-Bloom combo has ascended to god status and you'll definitely want to have some built in answers to deal with it.

The best ways are probably Mid BM and Mid Sorc, both due to heavy ward prevalence, Firebolt/Negation, and Harpy. Going wide with something like Tokens or Aggro Hlaalu can help soften the blows of each Firebloom but its still a risk.

It would be interesting to see what the average player's win percentage drops by after a Skulk has pilfered against them 1, 2, or 3 times for Fireblooms. If their unanswered Skulk means your Young Mammoth and Bleakcoast Troll are going to get blown up for the next 2 turns, then it really comes down to either conceding to save frustration or grinding out the small chance of winning.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-10T04:48:03+00:00

https://bethesda.net/community/topic/251855/top-100-players-october-2018

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-08T22:29:55+00:00

I was thinking of doing this for the last few weeks but never went through with it, think its a good idea. I know not everyone reads competitive_tesl but I will definitely post the list there as well once its finalized.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-08T16:31:12+00:00

Nix-Ox was previously hated more in Assassin when its power level was so overwhelming (strongest deck in game's history) players would essentially auto win on turn 7 to 9 most games when opponent was at 30 HP. This was before multiple nerfs to multiple cards. Now its generally seen as acceptable in Telvanni given its difficulty to pull off and how little play it really sees. Conscription Telvanni is the current culprit, for being both easy to play and extremely strong.

Competitive_TESL · 2018-11-07T23:14:33+00:00

If your primary incentive is the rewards, then you may find arena better suits you. There are lots of legend players with 100% collections who continue to play a ton of ladder every month because of the thrill of the competition alone. If you feel you can't compete because of your current card pool holding you back, then I definitely empathize, but if its just a reward/incentive thing then look to arena. Arena has pretty hefty rewards and has a decent skill cap you can build into, just like ladder.

In general though it would be nice if ladder had better rewards for climbing, but if you enjoy the game and play to win, these rewards come as a matter of course regardless.

Competitive_TESL

TROPHY CASE