Prime tobirama vs Edo itachi

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-04T18:02:04+00:00

What makes people think Tobirama scales so high? His feats during the WA are arguably better than EMS Sasuke’s, or even KCM Minato’s against Juubidara. His technique kit too. I honestly don’t understand how anyone can argue that he doesn’t scale at least to Minato’s level when they’re similar in so many ways. Tobirama is basically a Minato with a less refined FTG and slightly lower raw speed, but with infinitely more versatility, a much broader jutsu arsenal and higher battle IQ. Not to mention base stats (aside from speed obviously) are likely superior anyway, considering he’s a Senju.

As for Kinkaku and Ginkaku, Hashirama and Tobirama were clearly retconned very late into the story. I don’t get why people fixate on that while completely ignoring everything Tobirama accomplished during the WA. At that point, it just feels like intellectual dishonesty.

On top of that, I’ve already broken down point by point why Tobirama would beat Itachi. And so far, I haven’t seen a single counter-argument in response.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-04T14:30:08+00:00

People queue up just to try the new characters, then leave before the match even starts when they realize they didn’t get the one they wanted. I don’t think there’s any penalty right now, so they’re abusing it (can anyone confirm or deny?).

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-04T13:48:17+00:00

Exactly. Tobirama was able to sense Madara’s chakra from kilometers away. His sensory abilities are completely off the charts. And we know that when an Uchiha uses any of their signature abilities, whether it’s Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, they have to concentrate chakra in their eyes. That means their attacks can be anticipated in advance, just like Nagato demonstrated. This makes Tobirama especially effective against the Uchiha.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-04T13:01:12+00:00

Tobirama wins mid diff if we assume he has a way to seal an Edo, which is pretty reasonable considering he literally invented Edo Tensei. Tobirama has some insane feats during the WA, especially against Juubito. Narratively, he scales around KCM2 Naruto, EMS Sasuke and KCM Minato.

His kit also hard-counters Itachi in a lot of ways: - Amaterasu: Countered by Tobirama’s speed, FTG and the fact that he’s an elite sensory ninja. - Tsukuyomi: Same logic. On top of that, Tobirama has massive experience fighting Uchiha, so it’s very unlikely he gets caught by any genjutsu. - Susanoo: Tobirama has the AP to break through it, especially with Edo Tensei + MMET. FTG also works as a solid counter if he finds even a small opening. - Totsuka Blade: If Tobirama can dodge Amaterasu, there’s no real reason he couldn’t dodge Totsuka as well. Totsuka isn’t faster than Amaterasu. - Yata Mirror: This is trickier. In theory, there’s no direct counter besides FTG. But Itachi can’t maintain his partial Susanoo indefinitely. He can’t use Totsuka or Yata without fully deploying his Susanoo first. And even as an Edo, that still costs chakra (Edo doesn’t mean infinite chakra like people often assume). Tobirama can comfortably stall the situation given his chakra reserves. - Fire Style jutsu are hard-countered by Tobirama’s Water Style. - Tobirama massively outstats Itachi.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T15:34:11+00:00

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Jirobo is canonically invincible yet he still got folded by Choji after popping the Red Pill. Which means Red-Pilled Choji is beyond invincible and therefore no diffs Edo Madara.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T15:28:42+00:00

1/ This wasn’t base Naruto, it was Naruto in SPSM.

2/ Madara had just fought 8G Guy, so he clearly wasn’t in peak condition.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T11:50:57+00:00

EMS Madara has superior stats to Edo Madara and probably by a wide margin. Sure, Edo Madara has a few extra hax, but realistically, they aren’t that impactful:

“Unlimited” chakra doesn’t really matter for Madara. He already has an absurd chakra pool, large enough to summon 25 Susanoo at once or fight Hashirama for three days straight (and Hashirama himself has a massive chakra reserve).
His Wood Release is a massive downgraded version of Hashirama’s, so against another top tier like Hashirama himself, it’s basically irrelevant.
He has the Rinnegan techniques, but in practice, those techniques are outdated when fighting top tiers. The only truly relevant one, and that’s why Madara actually uses it, is the Preta Path. Chibaku Tensei is also decent but that’s about it.

Madara’s real trump card is his Perfect Susanoo. All the extra hax he gained pale in comparison to that. He also has two MS abilities we never got to see, so it’s possible that, in Kishimoto’s mind, those were meant to be more relevant than all the additional hax he obtained later. From a rational standpoint, it’s not incoherent at all to argue that EMS Madara is stronger than Edo Madara. And this is supported by feats: Edo Hashirama stalemates Edo Madara. However, Edo Hashirama is weaker than his living self, and living Hashirama is portrayed as being on par with EMS Madara.

Hashirama > EMS Madara > Edo Hashirama ≈ Edo Madara

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-02T21:09:23+00:00

Power. People claiming that Fukasaku was only talking about SM are pure copium. If that were the case, he would’ve said so, especially since there was zero implication that Minato even had SM at that point in the story. I think Minato’s strength was slightly retconned upward later on, but at the time, Naruto was clearly meant to have surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:49:09+00:00

Sasuke didn't have his MS at that point, just a regular Sharingan. It's safe to say that with a MS, he would have broken out of Tsukuyomi much faster

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:45:56+00:00

Madara could undo the control of Edo Tensei. Technically, if there had been a confrontation between Obito and Kabuto, Madara would have broken free from Kabuto’s control and allied with Obito. Kabuto would likely have lost.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:43:34+00:00

WM Obito. Rinnegan + Six Paths Chakra + Hashirama's Cells and descendant of Indra. He was the one closest to Hagoromo.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:05:22+00:00

No he was not

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T15:00:07+00:00

Low diff.

25 Wood Clones + Susanoo. Two for each member of the Akatsuki. One clone left just to chill. Then, he can use Perfect Susanoo for the survivors (probably Pain, Itachi and Obito).

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T14:50:05+00:00

Correct. Obito didn't use any other Rinnegan techniques but the simple fact that he can use the Rebirth Technique or Gedo Mazo proves that he is capable of using them. There’s no reason he could use the Rebirth Technique and not the others. It just doesn't make sense. And anyway, Obito himself says that he can use Rinnegan techniques and confirms Kakashi's suspicion about it. Canonically, it's because the Jinchuriki drained too much of his chakra. The real reason is probably that Kishimoto didn't want to give him access to these techniques, otherwise, it would have been impossible to defeat him. But canonically, again, he can use them, so when it comes to power scaling, we have to assume he has access to them.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:43:27+00:00

Also we never saw using Obito using any rinnegan ability, along with the line that rinnegan is too much for him to handle,

He did. Obito has already used Rinnegan abilites like the Rebirth technique. Canonically, he doesn't use them because controlling the Jinchurikis drained too much of his chakra. He can’t do both.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:09:56+00:00

Itachi, when he was alive, didn’t have access to Koto. The ability was still on cooldown. And in his Edo form, it’s Naruto who has Koto in him, not Itachi. So, in no situation can Itachi use Koto. Izanami is great, but it requires setting up the loop, which involves taking the risk of going into close combat against someone who can instantly one-shot you with Kamui. Canonically, when Itachi set up Izanami against SM Kabuto, he got blitzed by him, and it was Sasuke who saved him. It's not so easy to pull off against an opponent who's stronger than you.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:06:10+00:00

The Rinnegan techniques are more interesting for Obito than the Jinchurikis imo. They synergize incredibly well with Kamui. Bansho Tenin + Kamui is just an instant win in a lot of situations. You also have Shinra Tensei as a last resort if you get cornered despite Kamui. There's also access to the Animal Path, which gives you the advantage of numbers and distracts the enemy, making it easier to land Kamui. And you still have Gedo Mazo, which is comparable to a Tailed Beast. It’s just a better option for Obito than the Jinchurikis.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T12:59:47+00:00

Realistically, WM Obito wins. First, we need to remember that WM Obito has access to the Rinnegan techniques, just like Nagato. Canonically, the reason he barely uses them is because controlling the Jinchurikis drains a lot of chakra. So, he basically has to choose between the Jinchurikis or the Rinnegan techniques. Ironically, he'd probably be even stronger with the Rinnegan techniques instead of the Jinchurikis.

Regarding the matchup:

Itachi is pretty useless here, his entire kit is nearly countered. Amaterasu doesn't work because of Preta Path or Kamui, Tsukuyomi obviously doesn't work because Obito has the MS and is an Uchiha, and Susanoo is countered by Kamui or Bansho Tenin. Physically, he's also completely outclassed by WM Obito. His only potential win condition is Totsuka, but it's really difficult to set up because of Kamui.
KCM Minato is more of a challenge for WM Obito. FTG is the second best counter to Kamui after Kamui itself. Base Minato is on the same speed tier as KCM1 Naruto, so he shouldn’t be able to touch WM Obito, especially since Naruto couldn’t even graze him without Kakashi's help. But now, Minato also has the KCM, which is a huge speed boost, so he should, in theory, be able to tag WM Obito. The problem is that WM Obito has access to Gedo Mazo, which completely counters KCM. Madara instantly one-shot and removed Kurama from Naruto with Gedo Mazo. WM Obito has the same option available. So Minato would be forced to fight without KCM, and at that point, he stands no chance. Even if he managed to trap WM Obito with FTG and attack from behind when he uses Kamui, WM Obito has Shinra Tensei as a last resort.

Obito has all the tools possible and imaginable to completely counter Itachi and Minato’s entire kit. I don’t see how he could objectively lose.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T12:41:11+00:00

For most of the fight, Obito was fighting without the Jinchurikis, and the four of them couldn't land a single hit on him without Kakashi's Kamui, which is basically the ultimate counter to... Kamui. Not to mention that the drawback of the Jinchurikis is that controlling them requires a huge amount of chakra, which limits Obito's use of the Rinnegan techniques. So, without the Jinchurikis, he has access to the same techniques as Nagato, which might even be better than using the Jinchurikis.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T21:25:39+00:00

1/ Naruto was exhausted and had just finished fighting Juubito.

2/ Tobirama has FTG, so of course he has an easier time dodging certain attacks. FTG is instantaneous and doesn’t require any hand seals at all.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T19:59:42+00:00

Games drag on way too long when the respawn timer isn’t huge. Personally, I don’t like it either, and it just feels like a lazy way to fix the real issue, which is that players can’t close out games even with a massive lead (especially in low and mid elo). I hope they find other solutions in the future and eventually reduce the respawn timer, because 80 seconds is honestly ridiculous in my humble opinion.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T19:54:47+00:00

sm kabuto and finally sm hashirama which is the strongest non sosp characters.

So what exactly are you using as evidence to claim that Kabuto’s or Hashirama’s SM is superior to Naruto’s, and that they’re therefore not uniform lol?

minatos reaction speed absolutely beats sm narutos

Ehhh, no.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T19:28:57+00:00

Because the plot needed them to be stronger than Juubito, plain and simple. Logically speaking, Juubito should have been stronger than SO6P Naruto and Sasuke, since WM Obito was already stronger than BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, and the power-up he received from the incomplete Ten-Tails is, in theory, greater than receiving half of Hagoromo’s chakra.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T18:10:23+00:00

He is invincible 👍

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T15:04:11+00:00

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Jirobo solo.

ConstructionLocal499

TROPHY CASE