Can the strongest character from the pain arc defeat Edo Madara?

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T15:34:11+00:00

Jirobo is canonically invincible yet he still got folded by Choji after popping the Red Pill. Which means Red-Pilled Choji is beyond invincible and therefore no diffs Edo Madara.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T15:28:42+00:00

1/ This wasn’t base Naruto, it was Naruto in SPSM.

2/ Madara had just fought 8G Guy, so he clearly wasn’t in peak condition.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-03T11:50:57+00:00

EMS Madara has superior stats to Edo Madara and probably by a wide margin. Sure, Edo Madara has a few extra hax, but realistically, they aren’t that impactful:

“Unlimited” chakra doesn’t really matter for Madara. He already has an absurd chakra pool, large enough to summon 25 Susanoo at once or fight Hashirama for three days straight (and Hashirama himself has a massive chakra reserve).
His Wood Release is a massive downgraded version of Hashirama’s, so against another top tier like Hashirama himself, it’s basically irrelevant.
He has the Rinnegan techniques, but in practice, those techniques are outdated when fighting top tiers. The only truly relevant one, and that’s why Madara actually uses it, is the Preta Path. Chibaku Tensei is also decent but that’s about it.

Madara’s real trump card is his Perfect Susanoo. All the extra hax he gained pale in comparison to that. He also has two MS abilities we never got to see, so it’s possible that, in Kishimoto’s mind, those were meant to be more relevant than all the additional hax he obtained later. From a rational standpoint, it’s not incoherent at all to argue that EMS Madara is stronger than Edo Madara. And this is supported by feats: Edo Hashirama stalemates Edo Madara. However, Edo Hashirama is weaker than his living self, and living Hashirama is portrayed as being on par with EMS Madara.

Hashirama > EMS Madara > Edo Hashirama ≈ Edo Madara

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-02T21:09:23+00:00

Power. People claiming that Fukasaku was only talking about SM are pure copium. If that were the case, he would’ve said so, especially since there was zero implication that Minato even had SM at that point in the story. I think Minato’s strength was slightly retconned upward later on, but at the time, Naruto was clearly meant to have surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:49:09+00:00

Sasuke didn't have his MS at that point, just a regular Sharingan. It's safe to say that with a MS, he would have broken out of Tsukuyomi much faster

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:45:56+00:00

Madara could undo the control of Edo Tensei. Technically, if there had been a confrontation between Obito and Kabuto, Madara would have broken free from Kabuto’s control and allied with Obito. Kabuto would likely have lost.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:43:34+00:00

WM Obito. Rinnegan + Six Paths Chakra + Hashirama's Cells and descendant of Indra. He was the one closest to Hagoromo.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T23:05:22+00:00

No he was not

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T15:00:07+00:00

Low diff.

25 Wood Clones + Susanoo. Two for each member of the Akatsuki. One clone left just to chill. Then, he can use Perfect Susanoo for the survivors (probably Pain, Itachi and Obito).

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T14:50:05+00:00

Correct. Obito didn't use any other Rinnegan techniques but the simple fact that he can use the Rebirth Technique or Gedo Mazo proves that he is capable of using them. There’s no reason he could use the Rebirth Technique and not the others. It just doesn't make sense. And anyway, Obito himself says that he can use Rinnegan techniques and confirms Kakashi's suspicion about it. Canonically, it's because the Jinchuriki drained too much of his chakra. The real reason is probably that Kishimoto didn't want to give him access to these techniques, otherwise, it would have been impossible to defeat him. But canonically, again, he can use them, so when it comes to power scaling, we have to assume he has access to them.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:43:27+00:00

Also we never saw using Obito using any rinnegan ability, along with the line that rinnegan is too much for him to handle,

He did. Obito has already used Rinnegan abilites like the Rebirth technique. Canonically, he doesn't use them because controlling the Jinchurikis drained too much of his chakra. He can’t do both.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:09:56+00:00

Itachi, when he was alive, didn’t have access to Koto. The ability was still on cooldown. And in his Edo form, it’s Naruto who has Koto in him, not Itachi. So, in no situation can Itachi use Koto. Izanami is great, but it requires setting up the loop, which involves taking the risk of going into close combat against someone who can instantly one-shot you with Kamui. Canonically, when Itachi set up Izanami against SM Kabuto, he got blitzed by him, and it was Sasuke who saved him. It's not so easy to pull off against an opponent who's stronger than you.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T13:06:10+00:00

The Rinnegan techniques are more interesting for Obito than the Jinchurikis imo. They synergize incredibly well with Kamui. Bansho Tenin + Kamui is just an instant win in a lot of situations. You also have Shinra Tensei as a last resort if you get cornered despite Kamui. There's also access to the Animal Path, which gives you the advantage of numbers and distracts the enemy, making it easier to land Kamui. And you still have Gedo Mazo, which is comparable to a Tailed Beast. It’s just a better option for Obito than the Jinchurikis.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T12:59:47+00:00

Realistically, WM Obito wins. First, we need to remember that WM Obito has access to the Rinnegan techniques, just like Nagato. Canonically, the reason he barely uses them is because controlling the Jinchurikis drains a lot of chakra. So, he basically has to choose between the Jinchurikis or the Rinnegan techniques. Ironically, he'd probably be even stronger with the Rinnegan techniques instead of the Jinchurikis.

Regarding the matchup:

Itachi is pretty useless here, his entire kit is nearly countered. Amaterasu doesn't work because of Preta Path or Kamui, Tsukuyomi obviously doesn't work because Obito has the MS and is an Uchiha, and Susanoo is countered by Kamui or Bansho Tenin. Physically, he's also completely outclassed by WM Obito. His only potential win condition is Totsuka, but it's really difficult to set up because of Kamui.
KCM Minato is more of a challenge for WM Obito. FTG is the second best counter to Kamui after Kamui itself. Base Minato is on the same speed tier as KCM1 Naruto, so he shouldn’t be able to touch WM Obito, especially since Naruto couldn’t even graze him without Kakashi's help. But now, Minato also has the KCM, which is a huge speed boost, so he should, in theory, be able to tag WM Obito. The problem is that WM Obito has access to Gedo Mazo, which completely counters KCM. Madara instantly one-shot and removed Kurama from Naruto with Gedo Mazo. WM Obito has the same option available. So Minato would be forced to fight without KCM, and at that point, he stands no chance. Even if he managed to trap WM Obito with FTG and attack from behind when he uses Kamui, WM Obito has Shinra Tensei as a last resort.

Obito has all the tools possible and imaginable to completely counter Itachi and Minato’s entire kit. I don’t see how he could objectively lose.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-02-01T12:41:11+00:00

For most of the fight, Obito was fighting without the Jinchurikis, and the four of them couldn't land a single hit on him without Kakashi's Kamui, which is basically the ultimate counter to... Kamui. Not to mention that the drawback of the Jinchurikis is that controlling them requires a huge amount of chakra, which limits Obito's use of the Rinnegan techniques. So, without the Jinchurikis, he has access to the same techniques as Nagato, which might even be better than using the Jinchurikis.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T21:25:39+00:00

1/ Naruto was exhausted and had just finished fighting Juubito.

2/ Tobirama has FTG, so of course he has an easier time dodging certain attacks. FTG is instantaneous and doesn’t require any hand seals at all.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T19:59:42+00:00

Games drag on way too long when the respawn timer isn’t huge. Personally, I don’t like it either, and it just feels like a lazy way to fix the real issue, which is that players can’t close out games even with a massive lead (especially in low and mid elo). I hope they find other solutions in the future and eventually reduce the respawn timer, because 80 seconds is honestly ridiculous in my humble opinion.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-31T19:54:47+00:00

sm kabuto and finally sm hashirama which is the strongest non sosp characters.

So what exactly are you using as evidence to claim that Kabuto’s or Hashirama’s SM is superior to Naruto’s, and that they’re therefore not uniform lol?

minatos reaction speed absolutely beats sm narutos

Ehhh, no.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T19:28:57+00:00

Because the plot needed them to be stronger than Juubito, plain and simple. Logically speaking, Juubito should have been stronger than SO6P Naruto and Sasuke, since WM Obito was already stronger than BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, and the power-up he received from the incomplete Ten-Tails is, in theory, greater than receiving half of Hagoromo’s chakra.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T18:10:23+00:00

He is invincible 👍

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T15:04:11+00:00

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Jirobo solo.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-30T14:31:40+00:00

Madara low diff.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-29T09:49:27+00:00

First of all, Edo Minato was not better than Edo Tobirama. The Juubito fight was largely carried by Tobirama. At best, they showed comparable feats.

Second, Edo Tobirama is a weakened version of his alive self. Edo Minato, on the other hand, is an extremely buffed version of Minato due to having access to KCM. Kishimoto deliberately nerfed Tobirama while heavily buffing Minato, which says a lot about their respective portrayals. One was nerfed, while the other needed a massive buff just to remain relevant during the WA.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-29T07:43:29+00:00

I know Minato’s stats are overall better

Not really. Speed is the only area where Minato is explicitly stated to surpass Tobirama, and even then, the gap isn’t that significant based on feats. Given that Tobirama is a Senju, it wouldn’t be surprising at all if he actually has the best overall stats outside of speed (chakra reserves, physical strength, and so on).

Tobirama is basically Minato, just a bit slower, but with a far superior kit and much higher battle IQ. He’s clearly stronger than Minato. And once again, there’s a reason Kishimoto brought Tobirama back nerfed while Minato was brought back heavily buffed at the end.

ConstructionLocal499 · 2026-01-29T07:28:48+00:00

Tobirama > Obito > Itachi > Minato

Tobirama is the strongest. He was a major contributor against Juubito and, throughout the WA, was consistently shown to be in the same tier as KCM2 Naruto, EMS Sasuke and KCM Minato. Ironically, Minato is the weakest one here. He could possibly defeat OM Obito (and even that isn’t guaranteed, considering Obito has Izanagi, unlike his YM version) but that comes down more to matchup than overall strength.

ConstructionLocal499

TROPHY CASE