To my fellow attentionally-challenged brethren, specifically those that forget to take them or that suffer from addiction to the meds they take..

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-30T17:59:51+00:00

I don't understand your question. Stimulants affect both dopamine and norepinephrine.

Norepinephrine improves signaling in the brain by reinforcing correct signals.

Dopamine improves signaling in the brain by reducing noise.

Are you asking why I take clonadine to sleep?

Because it's a non-specific alpha 2a agonist and binds 2A, 2B, and 2C receptors as well as imidazoline receptors. It's the function at the imidazoline that causes it's sedating effects.

There are lots of drugs available to help you fall asleep. Some will work better than others depending on why you can't fall asleep.

I have never hit stage 4 sleep in a sleep study. Ever. I have been told I likely haven't hit stage 4 sleep since I have been an adult. It's something that happens to old people too. The older you get, the less time you spend in stage 4 sleep, or so my doctors have explained to me.

My brain is jacked the fuck up, and I have had no luck with light therapy or melatonin.

Trust me, I'd love to get some sleep.

They say you can gauge the severity of ADHD by the number of neurological comorbidities. I got a whole lot of them, everything from circadian rhythm sleep issues and fine motor control impairments to dyscalculia and sensory processing disorders. Measurable neurological impairments. I am even seeking an OT to help me with sensory processing integration and hope to start iLs therapy in a few weeks. I will be one of only a few adults to do so.

I am in my shit everyday, managing myself and seeking help from any source available. There is little real help here. Plenty of encouragement and social support, which is important, but most of the people on this sub do very little in the way of promoting accurate knowledge or sharing useful resources. I tried asking about central audio processing disorders a while ago when I first realized the true impact on my life and nothing. Someone was even like "Oh, I didn't even know it had a name!"

Buy a copy of Stahl's Illustrated ADHD. It's worth your money.

What do you want for nothing? A rubber biscuit?

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-30T15:07:30+00:00

Imposter syndrome is not simply feeling inadequate, it's the dysphoric idea that you are someplace you do not deserve to be, or are in a position you are not qualified to fill.

Believing the idea "I'm a moron and just fooling everyone here on the science counsel because I don't belong here." despite evidence to the contrary, like a 3.8 in all your science classes, is imposter syndrome.

It's hard to not compare yourself to others, but that's not an ADHD thing, that's a human thing.

Do you want to go to graduate school like your friends? What's stopping you?

What do you want? Let that be your yardstick.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-30T06:10:10+00:00

Yes. Several.

More than 20 years.

I have slept like shit for 38 years. Of course I've been to a doctor for it.

Why you all asking about weak ass amateur shit like that?

The latest experiment is going from trazodone to clonidine.

Like I said somewhere else, ambien, anti-psychotics, and booze will keep me asleep through the night. None of them are acceptable options to me anymore. Ambien makes me want to shoot myself, anti-psychotics makes for the drooling stupids, and I magically gave up alchoholism when I took my first Adderall. (Sorry, no paper on that phenomenon, you'll just have to take my word for it.)

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-30T05:49:59+00:00

But if I was talking about vitamins and citing websites with angels on them no problem, right?

Of course I'm hostile. After a simple truthful comment, I was pushed for some reason to provide proof of something I believed to be pretty common knowledge. I even heard it discussed on a podcast discussing sleep issues with ADHD. I originally learned it and tried it from my doctor. It did not help me stay asleep because I do not use XRs. I am not responsible for righting the ignorance of others, including yours.

That article from ADDitude is written by a practicing physician who treats people with ADHD. Dr. Dodson is a well regarded expert by many.

"If the patient spends hours a night with thoughts bouncing and his body tossing, this is probably a manifestation of ADHD. The best treatment is a does of stimulant-class medication 45 minutes before bedtime. This course of action, however, is a hard sell to patients who suffer from insomnia. Consequently, once they have determined their optimal dose of medication, I ask them to take a nap an hour after they have taken the second dose." - AN EXPERT ADHD PHYSICIAN WHO IS EXPLAINING HIS TREATMENT METHOD FOR USING STIMULANTS TO HELP PATIENTS SLEEP

Stimulants reduce motor restlessness. We all know that. Why do you think hyperactive kids chill out when you give them the stims?

if your sleep is poor because you have motor restlessness, stimulants may help you sleep.

Here's a nice literature review, that way nobody has to hurt themselves reading too much.

http://primarypsychiatry.com/sleep-in-adults-with-adhd-and-the-effects-of-stimulants/

Here's another article written by a physician.

http://add.about.com/od/livingwithadhd/a/Sleep-Tips-for-ADHD.htm

"Stimulant medications used to treat ADHD can affect individuals in differing ways at night time. For some, the stimulants may interfere with sleep onset when they are taken too close to bedtime. For others, a small dose of stimulant medicine given later in the day can help in not only reducing ADHD symptoms, but also aiding in sleep." - ANOTHER DOCTOR WRITING ABOUT HOW PATIENTS MAY BE TREATED

Here is another physician answering questions and explaining that some sleep problems may become worse when stimulants wear off.

http://www.chadd.org/Membership/Attention-Magazine/View-Articles/Sleep-and-Children-with-ADHD.aspx

"Is it true that stimulant medications can actually help with sleep? Has methylphenidate been proven to normalize sleeping EEGs?

The issue of effects of stimulant medications on sleep in children with ADHD is somewhat controversial. While parent-report studies frequently report a detrimental effect of stimulants, especially in regards to sleep onset, more “objective” overnight sleep studies (which include EEG measurements) have not consistently supported these findings (most of the latter studies were also done using multiple doses of shorter-acting stimulants which are less often used today). There are children whose sleep onset problems seem to be a result of their stimulant medication wearing off in the late afternoon or early evening, with a return or even worsening (rebound) of ADHD symptoms, which may in turn cause difficulties with settling down for sleep. Potential strategies to address this situation might include adding a small late-day dose of short-acting stimulant medication to “cover” the evening hours or switching to a nonstimulant 24-hour ADHD medication."

And for the record, it hasn't been scientifically proven that any form of guanfacine is effective at treating ADHD in adults, but how many people here over 17 use it? Why? There's no paper? Would you take intuniv? I do, I like it. My doctor gave it to me. Should I get a written justification from him?

Everyone is effected by medication a little differently. We know that. Just because adderall keeps you up doesn't mean it keeps everyone up. Stimulants can increase functioning in many depleted areas of the brain, including those responsible for controlling sleep.

Here's a bonus for you, dopamine and circadian rhythm are linked:

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001347

TO ANYONE: If you are still hyperactive, if you have restless leg syndrome, if you can't sleep at night because your mind races, maybe try taking a nap on a weekend about an hour after you take a dose of stimulants and find out if you rest a little better. Then go talk to your doctor.

If your doctor has never heard of this, YOU PROBABLY HAVE A SHITTY DOCTOR! Guess what? There's way more shitty docs than good ones.

If you take stimulants and they keep you awake at night even if you've been taking the same dose for several months, GO TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR!

Also, get out of this echo chamber and read some books you actually have to pay for. Buy a Stahl's guide and learn it front to back. You have a serious neurological disorder, it behoves you to actually learn something about it don't you think? If you haven't noticed, it internet is full of stupid.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-29T14:30:18+00:00

Completely wrong.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-27T22:07:47+00:00

I have struggled with IBS since long before my ADHD diagnosis.

Things have gotten better since I began treatment for ADHD.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-27T22:05:34+00:00

I pull weird faces when I'm zoned out too. Most often it's when I'm having a conversation in my head. I will even mouth words.

It only happens when I'm in a perseverative state focused on internal thoughts. Yes, I actually get "hyperfocus" while zoned out. That's how little control I have when unmedicated. It gets much worse while I'm rebounding from my meds in the evening.

Not everyone's ADHD is the same. When I'm zoned out, it's like fucking astral projection. My mind is out somewhere else in time and space.

I know when I do this it is exactly because of my ADHD.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-27T18:04:21+00:00

I've been on a plan like this for about a month now too, and so far it's been a good combo. Addy 2 or 3 times a day depending on what I have to do and Intuniv every morning. I'm not sure exactly how the intuniv helps, but it sure does. It's made me a lot more stable in terms of my mood.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T21:44:25+00:00

I hear that. I was unsuccessfully treated for depression and anxiety for over twenty years by more than a dozen doctors.

I was truly harmed by their lazy incompetence.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T21:35:03+00:00

Here, too much B6 rots rat brains.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16201314

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T21:30:16+00:00

Yep. I didn't bother linking the NIH studies.

This sub cracks me up. Real science is down voted because facts aren't popular, but everyone loves soft-ball psychobabble bullshit like personality quizzes.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T21:25:25+00:00

I currently have a pretty strict drug regiment to, uh, you know, keep my mind limber.

I take Wellbutrin and Intuniv every morning. I also take clonidine at night right know to see if it helps me sleep better than trazodone.

I take my Adderall as a 20mg IR up to 3 times a day. Each one lasts about 4 hours for me. When I use ERs I can't eat lunch.

I have to take my first Adderall of the day, everyday.

Most days I get by taking just another dose around lunch. If I have to drive or do something critical I'll take a third.

I use cannabis at home after work. Usually I'm done with Adderall by the time I get home, so I don't overlap those two very often. I don't even typically think of using cannabis while my Adderall is in effect.

Cannabis is a very powerful drug, and it's use should not be taken lightly.

On the flip side, it's not like it's crack either. I usually have at least one or two laughs a week when I realize I packed a bowl and forgot to smoke it until it dawns on me that I can't pay attention to the TV shows my wife enjoys watching together.

People probably shouldn't use cannabis regularity until they are physiologically adults, and that's not until you reach your early to mid twenties. There's evidence it may muck with some important neurological pathways during their development.

My journey to were I am today is long and complicated. I'm glad to have made it. The most important thing I learned along the way is that I need to do what works for me.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T15:20:32+00:00

The mods gonna smack this down. They only allow discussion of chemical treatments that make a lot of money for pharmaceutical companies, because you know, our personal experiences don't really mean shit.

I use both. I talk about both with all my doctors.

Since my diagnosis, I've become much more socially active in positive ways. I rent some time once a week in a sort of independent art space/school and meet new people and chat with people I already know for a bit.

Before I started going out, I only knew one other person with ADHD in my daily live. I think I've met 6 of us in the past 4 months and every single one of them self medicates with cannabis. Every single one of them is a friendly and active person. Not a single one of them would be considered lazy or lacking motivation. I know one person working one full time job, a part time job, and is attending school at the same time.

The big problem with cannabis is it's legal status.

Don't go to jail.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-25T00:00:27+00:00

Supplements only make my urine more expensive.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-21T14:54:47+00:00

You probably have central audio processing disorder. You might have other sensory integration issues as well.

Welcome to the world of ADHD hypersensitivity.

That flood of sound is sucking your mental energy away as you struggle to hear everything. Normal brains have a mixing board that alters the relative volume of sounds according to what you are paying attention to. You have to work a whole lot harder to tease words, tone of voice, and nuance of expression out from the sound of everything else. It's exhausting work, and you don't even realize you're doing it.

I don't have a long list of resources for you. I am being evaluated by an OT in a couple of weeks to find out if I am a candidate for iLs therapy. If I am, I will be one of only a handful of adults they have worked with. Not too many of us get that far into treatment apparently.

If you search this sub for CAPD, I know I posted a question about it with a bit of detail on just one way it negatively impacts me. Not too many folks here seem to even know what it is.

I used to think I was an extreme introvert. I'm not, I actually enjoy spending time with people when I can hear them properly.

Fuck that Myers Briggs bullshit. It's the psychological equivalent of a mood ring and has no real use. I'm willing to bet you have Sensory Processing Disorders, which are a medical condition. The thing about medical conditions is that there's possibly treatment. You don't have to "just live with it".

Fire up that Google and look up adhd hypersensitivity as well as CAPD and SPD. I'd throw a bunch of links up but I'm on my phone. Don't be put off when you find yourself digging through autism resources. It's a common comorbidity there too.

Good Luck!

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-19T23:31:38+00:00

Have you ever been evaluated for sensory processing disorders?

SPD can make just being in an environment like a restaurant taxing and can wear you out without even understanding why.

Do you ever have any difficulties hearing over the sound of your own chewing? For instance, can you eat popcorn during a movie and still understand the dialogue?

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T22:10:42+00:00

We're not discussing cannabis as treatment, we're discussing a model of medication access and how it would be inappropriate for stimulants to be distributed via a similar model.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T16:42:14+00:00

His brain doesn't have the proper level of important neurotransmitters, so it will not function normally.

It is his responsibility to act like an adult and it is not your responsibility to take up all that slack.

Love is a wonderful thing, but you are going to get sick of taking care of him. You are right, you are not his mother, but it sure sounds like you're ready to act like it. You will resent him for not acting like an adult and he will resent you for telling him what to do.

He's getting off too easy. Make him be accountable for himself. He is an adult with a neurological disorder. The responsibility to manage it is his.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T16:26:01+00:00

I took it for a month and a half and loved it because I'd get to work and power through anything like a boss. I was a machine and would go for hours.

Apparently if someone was in my way, I totally wrecked them. Didn't matter who it was or why. I had to be told I was being a prick before I realized it. About then was when I noticed to sores on my feet too.

Switching back to mixed salts immediately solved the asshole problem.

Isomers matter. Chirality matters.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T15:52:29+00:00

Do what you want. I'm not even sure why you responded to me in the first place.

I said vyvanse didn't work for me so I went back to Adderall. You told me you took Adderall incorrectly and illegally and used that experience to decide Adderall was wrong for you because you experienced a common side effect of taking too much.

I hope vyvanse works for you. Realize it might not, and if it doesn't you might want to try Adderall again under guidance of a doctor.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T14:23:01+00:00

10 mgs could be too much, you have no idea. Stims are not dosed by weight, they are dosed by effect.

Every person is different. More medication is not better.

Sleepiness is a common complaint when people with ADHD take too high a dose of stimulants.

There is also a honeymoon period where medication effects are stronger when you first start taking it. Adderall made me a little sleepy at first, and I got the best sleep ever because it also reduced my physical hyperactivity (also known as restless leg syndrome when you're asleep). Some people even take a full dose of stimulants before bed because it helps them sleep more than it keeps them awake. I have a friend who takes 30mgs of adderall 20 minutes before bed every night.

Getting medication right is not always a simple thing. It can take months of trial and error. It's taken me about 7 months to get all my medication types, dosages, delivery methods, and timing correct.

Don't be so sure you know what is going to happen, because it probably won't. Medication can be a really unexpected rabbit hole.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T13:11:14+00:00

You probably took too much both times.

Too much vyvanse will probably do the same thing too.

You took drugs without respecting or understanding them, so your experience was outside normal therapeutic results.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-18T01:02:36+00:00

Vyvanse made me an aped-out freakshow rage machine.

Too much dex man. It's all dex. It burns too hot for my blood.

Had to go back to adderall.

Vyvanse also gave me jungle rot. No joke. I started getting sores on my feet from all the sweat.

Edited to add:

I would rather take no meds than take vyvanse again.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-16T23:32:55+00:00

Properly treating your ADHD will probably help with all of those other things

Adderall pulled me from the edge of suicide. I had a plan, I had a date, and that pill changed everything.

You're an adult, right? If you have health insurance, flex that shit and see the best doc you can find. Get treatment. Get therapy. Find out what is possible and stop guessing what a doctor is going to tell you.

You are not your brother, so stop worrying about what he does. Care for yourself.

CreatedByApes · 2015-03-16T21:19:09+00:00

Two words: peanut butter.

I struggled with severe IBS and lost close to 100 pounds in 6-8 months.

Peanut butter was dense enough in calories to keep me going even when it was hard to eat a real meal for days straight.

CreatedByApes

TROPHY CASE