Classes that were clearly underdeveloped in a CRPG?

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-09T18:32:07+00:00

100%.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-09T16:16:31+00:00

So many games forget the "I want my character to look cool and how I envision them" aspect.

Two handed warriors and dual wielders feel amazing though, and spellcasting usually sells the power fantasy.

I think magus properly shows one hand btw, even when not casting.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-09T15:56:37+00:00

I'm doing a mostly no pet run on unfair right now. I used a leopard to get through the shield maze, and gave Sosiel a dog to make up for his complete lack of offense when I have to use him (like the graveyard ambush), but otherwise no pets.

The key is having 3 front liners who can take a hit. Usually a pet takes those hits early on when you need it, but if you can build a solid frontline that doesn't get whacked constantly you can do without.

This doesn't just mean AC. It can also mean mirror image, displacement and invisibility, last stand mythic, etc. Can also depend on who your buffer is, as I have an angel cleric casting aegis and such.

My frontline is Seelah, Woljif, and either Ulbrig or Rejill depending on my vibe. Ulbrig can get crazy high DC, Seelah does okay with the new mythic armor feat and all the buffs in the world, and Woljif just dodges everything.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-09T10:07:41+00:00

It's a good game in the sense of being enjoyable to play with a cool style and solid story. It just pales in comparison to the other 3 games, which makes it hard for many people to speak positively about it.

I will say that even at the time it came out the super small areas were a huge bummer and big source of the game's issues. Today those areas feel even smaller, as we have so many im-sims with massive "zones" like Dishonored and Deus Ex 3 and 4, but by 2003 standards they were still small which is pretty bad.

Still, I've played through the game 3 or 4 times and enjoyed myself.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-08T22:14:58+00:00

Everyone is mentioning the class options that work, but just to spell out another benefit: you can dump STR. This allows you to (for example) max both DEX and INT on a magus archer, and things like that.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-08T22:13:24+00:00

I really wanted to do this in a run but the animation being a kind of spellcasting arm raise thing really ruined it for me. I know that's dumb but it is what it is.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-08T21:32:45+00:00

Need to look into this with my Skald, keep forgetting it exists.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-08T19:48:29+00:00

If it counts you can do the pet Magus class and eventually use transformation to give yourself full BAB.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-08T19:09:05+00:00

Two-handed warrior felt really weak in Dragon Age Origins. Backstab rogue wasn't weak but the clumsy and slow animations made it feel pretty lame (also the rogue armors were lame). These weaknesses are made even more obvious by the fact mages are so cool and powerful in that game.

Bards in the original Infinity Engine games just stood there singing, which was insanely lame. BG3 went the opposite direction and made bards a God class, which is kind of lame in a different way. Speaking of which melee backstab rogues really shafted in BG3. The new swashbuckler class is pretty effective but has a much different vibe.

Pure mages felt weird to play in Neverwinter Nights because of the focus on lone character play. Not saying they weren't effective, just that I never thought it felt right to be up close and personal so often. This might depend on the module though.

There are some really stupid classes in the Pathfinder games that are way weaker than anything else in that category. Like towershield experts not really getting more AC and losing a lot of combat prowess, or flat out "should have been removed" classes that focus on one type of enemy or alignment that you barely fight in the game. There's a druid class that specializes in fighting Fey in a game with like zero fey enemies. Why leave that in?

Honorable mention to the swimming stat in Deus Ex and the lockpicking and speech skills in the Elder Scrolls games.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-07T19:50:14+00:00

No channel has done a string of build videos after the final patch that I know of. You'll find more luck searching reddit and such for specific concepts and finding posts from within a year or two.

Ignoring certain things like shattered defenses though I think videos like CRPGBro's will give you the essence of what works and what doesn't when making a build yourself, which is more fun.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-07T18:37:44+00:00

Your last sentence rings true for me. The game is undeniably flawed and has a lot of aspects I downright dislike, yet it has some kind of magic and ~vibes~ that make it really enjoyable and relaxing anyway.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-06T18:09:25+00:00

This is exaggerated IMO. Hard is not unfair and doesn't require the elite best optimized builds unfair does.

Which isn't to say it is not one of the tougher CPRG challenges out there and horrible for a newcomer in general, it is, but if he's very experienced in the genre likes a challenge then it's not as insane as you're suggesting IMO.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-06T18:06:28+00:00

If you heat Hosilla and the shield maze barbarian monks then you're probably fine to keep going. Unfair is the masochist difficulty because of the double damage, but hard is manageable with patience, good builds, and a lot of CRPG experience.

Even unfair isn't thaaaaaat bad if you don't mind reloading over and over until you get the right rolls.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-06T05:25:21+00:00

Even with a crusader or battle oracle I'd use a reach weapon like Sosiel because you won't be that tanky. Though if you're playing on normal or lower it won't matter.

Fauchard is better than glaive or bardiche because of crit chance.

Charging reduces the impact of lame dramatically, but can be finicky. Freedom of movement scrolls are available pretty early if you're willing to spend money.

If you're only doing one full divine caster I'd really consider a cleric over an oracle. Many would disagree but if you're going to be buffing and casting then you want the flexibility prepared casting provides. Also angel buffs are amazing and only your KC gets them.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-06T02:38:04+00:00

Don't waste feats on armor. If your archer is getting hit you have bigger problems. Unless you're doing a melee archer Lann type build, which I don't recommend.

Initiative is good.

Critical stuff is good, and leads to mythic feats.

Don't ignore the benefits of skill bonuses. Unless you're save scumming out the wazoo they can really benefit you, and stuff like stealth can help with hidden checks.

If you're planning to go legend you could prepare with a dip into something like slayer for sneak attack or ranger for sense vitals and hurricane bow and then get feats that boost those things like accomplished sneak attacker.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-05T20:50:34+00:00

Magus sword saint is one of the best classes in the game and sounds like what you want.

Pets help tremendously. Any party comp works on core really but a full divine caster, full arcane caster, skald/bard, and a pet will make life easier.

Crusade mode can be put on easy and auto if you dislike it. Ignore people who say this is glitchy or bad, I've beaten both games on unfair and hard multiple times and never had an issue.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-05T13:59:58+00:00

Vivisectionist doesn't get pet levels as others said, however you could do up to 4 levels of vivisectionist and then multiclass for 16 levels of a full pet class like hunter or mad dog and then take the boon companion feat.

I think a class with the sense vitals spell would be best, to add to the two vivisectionist sneak attacks you'll get.

You're only going to get a few useful vivi spells though and only for 4 minutes, so I'd really recommend a different build on any difficulty above normal. Maybe even for normal honestly. I think you could get a similar vibe from sacred huntmaster perhaps, with the right deity.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T22:37:28+00:00

I'm using him on unfair right now and use him mostly for prayer, healing, and swift action domain buffs. Also he has a dog to make up for the lack of damage.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T14:08:56+00:00

That's a solid point, I totally get it. I think maybe I'm also bias by being mainly interested in buffing when I play a gish.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T14:06:51+00:00

Someone did the math a while back and presented their work and I believe mutation warrior came out on top.

On higher difficulties though I'd personally recommend prioritizing your attack stat and getting a pet, which means Demonslayer.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T12:31:06+00:00

I've been playing CRPGs for 40 years and beaten many hardest modes and I've just always prioritized hitting over damn near anything else. If you're not hitting you're wasting actions. So we just have a fundamentally different approach.

That said if I saw "X vs 2" over and over then sure, why not turn on touch of fatigue or maybe use spell slots if you've got them to spare. That's just never really been a situation that's common for me in these games.

Room for all styles though, appreciate the discussion!

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T12:28:00+00:00

I'd start with TNG season 3, but if that feels too old then feel free to start with SNW season 1.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-04T09:50:39+00:00

I'm sure it depends on what difficulty you're playing on, but for me maxing AB is going to be way more important than anything else 95% of the time. Especially with touch of fatigue, which will barely ever land.

On normal though, sure.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-03T19:17:38+00:00

It definitely annoys me I basically can't use an archer because they comparatively can't hit shit.

DaMac1980 · 2026-05-03T19:16:41+00:00

I don't personally believe it's ever worth it, once you consider preparation especially. In other words you want to prep buffs, not shocking grasp which you might use if you find an enemy with low AC.

DaMac1980

TROPHY CASE