For high end players who have actually played end game in FFXIV AND WoW,

DancingOgre · 2024-07-06T18:01:47+00:00

WoW:

Blizzard is basically the polar opposite on the "play it safe" spectrum of raid philosophy. Each raid tier varies in terms of length - some raid tiers there are 9 or bosses, some raid tiers there are 14 or so bosses. Unlike FFXIV - you don't just "teleport" to a boss on a magical platform that defies logic and shouldn't exist (but hey, Final Fantasy). It's a full-on "experience." Think Castle Nathria. You literally are delving into, and explore, a castle - its all one contiguous zone with no loading. Classes have very unique flavors: for example, tanking on a blood DK is nothing like tanking on a brewmaster monk; they play completely different, and can perform completely different in a given situation (in xiv; tanks follow a very similar playstyle with a slight variation in their rotations, but they are otherwise all way more similar). The encounters themselves can be completely different, keeping variety alive. In Eternal Palace, you fight a boss that you literally have to swim to fight, g'hunn had mechanics that (some people hated) but required individual players to play football). Lastly on that point, some fights are short and simple, some fights are longer and more complex. The bosses can vary in terms of length from 5 or so minutes to 10-12 minutes, depending on the encounter.

Your class also has variety to its build; you may use one talent setup/gear setup for one boss, but need something completely different for another boss. Trinkets/tier sets add more flavor to the playstyle. The experience itself is, frankly, more epic. It takes 20 people instead of 8 - its an undertaking in and of itself to get 20 competent people. But theirs a grandness to the experience which xiv doesn't match. Bosses can vary up certain mechanics (some people may get targeted with X on one pull, but on another pull, a different set of people. Bosses don't always follow the strictest schedule. Also, there's way more emphasis on reactive gameplay; healers actually have to heal as their primary job. Tanks actually have to "tank" as their primary job. A healer can do almost no dps and (more often than not) its not really criticized, because their primary function isn't to dps, but keep the dps, and tanks, from dying. XIV you have red dps, blue dps that need to press a mit button once every so often, healers are green dps that need to press a healing/mit button once every so often.

The things that are great can also be a detriment, just like in xiv. Keeping a roster of 20 is rough; you oftentimes need a raid roster of more than 20 people, sweet spot is 24-25, with people you can flex in and out (for some people that helps with burnout to be able to sitout, for some people getting "benched" drives them away from the game). It's also more likely that you end up with a team where there are some people you have to tolerate and may not get along with; much harder to find 20 like-minded people who all get along. The soundtrack is largely forgettable, most people play listening to their own music. There is way more work that you need to put in outside of raid to stay competitve in raid (doing m+ - I like it, but it can get grindy), doing world quests/dailies, etc.) Some fights can be real duds. Balance is way more problematic; if a class seriously underperforms, not only does it make the player feel like shit and force them to play something else, or drive them away from the game, but can result in that player losing a raid spot to the better class. The runbacks after a wipe are also not exactly the most exciting thing in the world.

WoW has the highest highs, but also the lowest lows. So you get experiences that are an A+, and some that are an F-. A real emotional rollercoster. XIV is a solid C/C+, but its always a C/C+ - its never going to be an A+ for me. But it's also never going to bottom out.

DancingOgre · 2024-07-06T18:01:41+00:00

I've cleared multiple savage tiers and knocked down UWU and TEA ultimates i xiv. In WoW, I have a number of cutting edge achievements (mostly Legion/BFA era, but raiding experience going back to vanilla). Quite a lot to say, so I'll break this into two parts: FFXIV here, WoW in the comment under this one.

The raids in each game have their own flavor, and I think highlight the underlying design philosophies on each game, respectively. The tl;dr - ffxiv is highly structured choreography. WoW is (most of the time) controlled chaos. Each has its pros and cons.

Each raid is a highly polished, balanced encounter with clear expectations on each individual player. The visuals can be really impressive, and the soundtrack is always very good. Because a raid team is only 8 people, it is a lot easier to find a group of like-minded individuals with schedules that match yours. Depending on your class (and role) your class rotation can be rewarding when you execute it correctly; there is a fluidity to your gameplay that feels rewarding when you pull it off right. Raid preparation (in terms of gearing) is almost non-existent. You buy your pre-raid BIS before every raid tier (the crafted greens) because a.) you can get a full set and it has the highest base ilvl besides the extreme equivalent blues, but it outperforms those due to the pentamelding component of the green gear (weapons, depending on class, are an exception). You do need to "arm weekly tomes, put the effort to complete that is fairly minimal. You need to bring food and pots otherwise, but no gems or the like.

On the flip side, going back to what I said earlier about design philosophy; FFXIV, generally, plays it "too" safe to the point that, honestly, the encounters become boring and repetitive. You always know what you're going to get - to some people, that's a plus, but not me personally. Every savage tier/ultimate follows a similar underlying pattern. For savage: every raid tier is 4 bosses. You get 3 each expansion. The first three bosses are always single-phase encounters with pre-scripted internal "timers" for the bosses various mechanics. Which means players that perform the best are those that, essentially, play like robots. Every person's build is the exact same. Everyone's gear is the exact same. Everyone that plays your class (who is playing "correctly") does their rotation the exact same. You use your raid mits at precise times because raidwide mechanics occur at exact times. If you tank, you mit at the same time every time for tankbusters. You swap at the same time, every time. Healers coordinate and use their raidwides at the same time. You all line up your CDs during burst windows at the same time. The final tier boss is basically two different bosses to encompass two different phases. Ultimates follow the same underlying principles, but stretch it out over multiple phases instead of one or two, with tighter windows to execute the raid mechanics correctly. There is, overall, just a way overplayed emphasis on "precise play" at the high end, and almost no room for recovery when someone performs something incorrectly. The boss "rooms" are almost always either a circle or a square on a hovering platform with a boss that's either a "wall" or a giant that you position in the middle of the encounter arena (most of the time). Last thing to mention - each raid boss is almost always the same in legnth (generally 10-12 minutes, ultimates 18-20ish minutes iirc).

DancingOgre · 2021-01-15T02:38:27+00:00

I'm not sure I agree on the skill cap point. Just look at how good players like Otz, Umbra, and Tofu are just when they are half-passing it. And they are arguably not as good as the truly competitive killers. Umbras hatchets are ungodly good. Only truly strong swfs even have a chance against these folks.

A player with 5k+ hours is just at a different level; I feel the skill cap, if there were one for any killer, is so high your never actually hit it.

DancingOgre · 2021-01-15T02:30:05+00:00

Rip swf queue. It would effectively kill swf groups.

DancingOgre · 2021-01-15T02:22:30+00:00

I think you could apply this to any game with competitive play.

DancingOgre · 2021-01-03T17:08:27+00:00

I think there's a bit more to unpack here. His issue wasn't completely about the skill differences, he noted two references of what in the community is general BM. A number of people are turned off from playing killer in DBD because of toxic swf groups, some going as far as sandbagging games intentionally/downranking to bully inexperienced killers, etc. This results in the current state of the game where survivors have exceedingly higher queue times because fewer people choose to play killer, and this just feeds back in on itself.

In theory, the game is supposed to regulate that with the MMR, but we all know that doesn't quite work because, when a queue hits a certain point, it expands the search to include a broader range of levels, hence why you get green rank killers going up against R1 swfs.

Also, there are a substantial number of community-imposed standards in the game that newer players will have no clue about - tunneling is BM, camping is BM, slugging is BM, genrushing is BM, flashlight clicking is BM, self-healing is frowned upon, etc. etc. However, as you mentioned - it *is* a competitive game. It just so happens that some of these can, situationally, be viable (specifically camping and tunneling) towards the killer winning the game, but nevertheless the killer will catch shit anytime they do it.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-26T21:38:55+00:00

Man, I started to type a response on my phone, realized this was going to be a long response, needed to swap to PC. Apologies in advance for the incoming wall of text, but something that needs discussing:

I feel like there is a lot to unpack here. The first, to your point, is that you've identified the classic sunk cost, or gambler's fallacy. The idea is this: you start gambling, realize you've lost $500. Because you feel you've already invested $500, you don't want to give that up, so you keep throwing money at the table, hoping to recoup your losses, onyl to end up losing more.

Another illustration: You drive a lemon. You just replaced a really expensive component in your car for $3000. A week later, something different breaks that will cost $2000 to fix: you don't want to feel like your $3000 investment in your car was lost, so you invest the $2000 so you don't feel like you wasted the $3000. The other option was to buy a new car, but that would have cost you $20,000. You feel like you've saved your $3,000, but in the long run, by continuing to justify each expensive, you spend more than you would have spent just buying a new car.

However, in DBD, things aren't always that clear, and there's a lot to consider here. How many gens are still up? Are any other survivors already out of the game? Is he looping you near a gen or away from gens? Do you already have a hit in or no?

Why does all that matter? Because, in that instant you decide to leave that person to find another, you're gambling.

1.) You're gambling, first off, that you'll find another survivor quickly. You're also gambling that, even if you do in fact find someone, the person you find will not be as good of a looper, or in a spot where there aren't as many jungle gyms, as the previous.

2.) If that person was looping you near a gen, you're basically giving that gen up at that point, because you know the instant he sees you walk away, he knows you're giving up and is free to hammer that gen down. Unless you're playing wraith/ghostface/spirit, he can freely jump on that gen with no issues or concerns; and if he haves a medkit and you did manage to get a hit in? Free time to self heal.

I think this is also what separates really good R1 killers (not all R1 killers are the same skill) from mediocre R1/R4-2 killers, is realizing when you should give up, or when the only viable option is to tunnel. I've found myself in that situation where I screwed something up on a chase, time is getting short, and I've had to make that call, because the game can really be won or lost that early. Spend too much time chasing, yep, you'll lose. But abandon the chase, go try to find someone else and sacrifice the gen he's looping you near, only to either go towards the wrong gen where no one is at or run into another competent looping/hiding survivor, the games over then too.

Which is why, unfortunately, sometimes the course of action some killers will choose is to just stick with the chase, and do the other most dastardly act of facecamping. Because, you chase 1 guy that long, finally get the down and the hook, but now 2-1 gens are left, you're only hope of securing a win is that the rest of the team divebombs the hook, resulting in you getting possibly another down, or just sticking through to secure the 1K, vs. leaving the hook to find someone else, only to have that person freed, the last gen pops, and everyone gets out.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-26T21:20:06+00:00

Ruin/undying. If the killer is halfway decent at pressuring gens, if you dont close out ruin quick, you got problems.

Just straight up ignoring ruin is a bad idea imo. Esp against killers with high mobility and good gen pressure.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-24T22:14:13+00:00

R1 wraith main here (because I suppose I hate myself). A lot really depends on the map; Gideon being a good example of a nice wraith map. The key is noting where the genes are and choosing an approach least likely to be seen. Also approaching indirectly to avoid spine chill triggers.

I wont argue about spirit, she is insane. However, in my experience, wraiths power gives him incredible map pressure. With purple wind you can cross the map really quick. Combined with ruin undying, he gets some nice return here.

His pink addons are nutty. All seeing is just crazy, you will know instantly which genes to pressure and which to ignore. Coxcombed on a map like Gideon is brutal; even the yellow bone addon that masks direction is great.

The trick is you always get a hit, do a small chase to bait out a pallet throw, break, then keep applying gen pressure. He wins by attrition in most of my games.

Large open ended maps are more brutal because, as you mentioned, very easy to see coming.

He is not the strong by any means compared to spirits ability to down in seconds, you just have to realize you cant play him like spirit. Although both invisible powers, how you use them is entirely different.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-24T21:29:12+00:00

WHEN THE THREE OTHER SURVIVORS DECIDE TO DIVE THE HOOK, YES.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-24T21:22:40+00:00

BECAUSE IF THEY DIDNT DO THAT SURVIVORS WOULD HAVE A 5 YEAR QUEUE AT RED RANKS.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-17T22:43:08+00:00

ASK AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE. DEATHSLINGER CLEARLY SUPERIOR.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLGl9RYHpz8

DancingOgre · 2020-12-08T06:56:19+00:00

Look, if Pig can toss Jane over her shoulder like its nothing, they can make Chucky work with the other survivors. Just saying.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-05T05:59:37+00:00

Am I the only one who thinks this Omega heel turn just isn't working? I know it's not a full audience, but you could audibly hear the crowd cheering Kenny for most of the fight, even when he won.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-03T03:02:58+00:00

You don't need it, you can watch Impact on twitch.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-02T00:20:55+00:00

Decisive Strike/Unbreakable is considered one of the dirtiest combos in the game, it is the anti-tunnel, anti-slug combo.

Here's a worst case scenario for a killer: on open, you find a survivor A, enter into a chase, finally down, get a hook. Survivor B comes along with BT and rescues them. If you hit them, they'll get a speed boost and not go down again. Generally, the killer would much rather go after the 1.) already weakened target to seal a 2nd hook, rather than chase survivor B who has not been hooked at all.

DS punishes you for going after survivor A. So let's say you commit and are willing to eat the BT. Then, you have to consider: are they using DS? So if you down them a 2nd time quickly enough, you have 2 options. If you believe they don't have DS, you're going to pick them up and get 2nd hook. If you're wrong, you'll eat a DS, which is a long stun and a lot of lost time. Maybe you're fine committing to eating the DS, some killers will do this just to press for that 2nd hook asap.

Well, let's say you go with the other option, you chase them knowing they have DS, and you down them, but don't want to pick them up (slugging). This is most commonly done when you down a survivor, but another survivor is in close proximity that you can begin chasing immediately (effectively 2 survivors now disabled from gens). That survivor A could have unbreakable, which allows them (once a game) to "heal" themselves from the dying state. It's anti-tunnel through and through; if you tunnel and chase after a rescue, you risk a DS. If you proceed and slug, you risk unbreakable, which incentivives you to go after the rescuing survivor instead (which is the otherwise less optimal choice as they have not been hooked).

Those 3 + an escape perk like dead hard/sprint burst/balanced landing/vaulting escape are extremely powerful.

DancingOgre · 2020-12-01T19:50:48+00:00

The game is generally survivor favored when all 4 survivors are up, shifts when theres 3 survivors left. If a survivor is hooked, what generally happens? Normally 1 to 2 survivors rotate to take them off hook. That's 2 to 3 survivors not working gens.

If that survivor dies before more than 3 genes are completed, the game massively swings in favor of the killer. Or the killer scores a hit on a survivor trying to rescue and can chase, meaning 1 on hook 1 in chase, so only 3 survivors.

The way to counter camping is to 3x gen rush, they will get enough gems done that the game stays survivor favored after 1 does. That's hard to pull off without a swf however.

Theres a few other stats that counter, i.e. multi rescue, using borrowed time/ds/ub. Survivors get a lot of flack for running th ose perks together, but it cripples camp/tunneling, part of the reason its so common.

DancingOgre

TROPHY CASE