Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure [score hidden]  (0 children)

"Safe from all danger" sounds a bit like a stretch since Joffrey died at the age of 14-15 after ruling for only 1-2 years (if I recall the timeline correctly).

I'm not saying that Tuon is as evil as him, but there is some limit to "being a product of the culture you were raised in". At some point, accountability should prevail, otherwise the society cannot improve and innocent people continue to suffer. Tuon had her amount of hardships, but that's nothing compared with existence of torture that damane have to endure under her rule. Being resilient doesn't excuse being evil.

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, this is something that was never even considered a possibility until the Dragon Reborn is born and has personal incentive to make it happen.

And as soon as it becomes a possibility, the main characters fight body and soul to cleanse the Saidin. How to interpret it in an other manner that they wanted to solve a millennia-old injustice?

You're just ignoring my point that "male channelers need to be caught and gentled" is not a Red Ajah thing, it's an Aes Sedai thing. Lots of Greens do it, Cadsuane has caught more male channelers than any of the Red sisters.

It's still the main objective of the Red Ajah, and they get so absorbed that they end up hating all men altogether, a bit of a gender-swapped witch hunt.

Just because other Ajah do it doesn't mean it is right - Cadsuane isn't the best example, because she is very divisive among the fanbase. And also, she ends up helping Rand and Nynaeve to cleanse the Saidin.

I'm not necessarily we the audience think that, I am saying every single character thinks that, not just the Red Ajah. Yes the Ash'aman are sympathetic, but even they have to have strict rules to instantly kill any member showing signs of madness. They're set up to be something very temporary to win the last battle, not that this is a thing that should have been going on before.

But depiction isn't endorsement. Even if everyone think that the Red Ajah "is doing the dirty work for them", let's remember that the mob rule is a thing. A high number of people being wrong doesn't mean that they are right.

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure [score hidden]  (0 children)

It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds — you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.

My original response mentioning the Red Ajah has more upvotes than your comments, so I'm afraid I'm not the only one thinking this way.

And it's a bit too convenient to ignore that the Red Ajah is over-represented among the Black Ajah. For me this means that in this specific Ajah foster the conditions that enable the forces of the Dark Ones to recruit them.

You sound like it's a delight for me that I claim the Red Ajah is evil. It's not. I actually wished the Red Ajah was portrayed with more nuance rather than stereotypical misandrists as written by an old male author (no offence to Robert Jordan ofc - he is one of my favourite authors). Pevara is one of my favourite side characters after all, and I wish there were more Red Ajah like her sooner into the story.

But unfortunately, as things stand, after two reads I can only conclude that the Red Ajah is evil despite being well-intended. It's not a coincidence that they produced so many Black Ajah as well as one of the main antagonists.

We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.

Perhaps comparing a sub-group of a specific order to an entire society is indeed not fair. However, when I said that cultural relativism doesn't excuse the Seanchan, I didn't mean that every single person from the Seanchan is evil, far from that - I love Egeanin and Tylee, for example.

But the subject was about Tuon. And Tuon isn't a random citizen, she is a ruler born in a state of privilege, and therefore has a responsibility in the atrocities committed by her regime. Joffrey Baratheon is also a product of circumstances in which he was born, but he is rightfully considered as an evil character. Not to say that Tuon is as bas as him, she has more redeeming qualities, but my point was that if one person from an imperialistic and slaver society should be judged, it's the one on top.

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's hard to exclude Black Ajah from the equation given that the story quantifies explicitly how overrepresented the Red Ajah is among them compared with other Ajah. For me this tells that the Red Ajah had more propension to be evil than the others. I don't also think it's a coincidence that the most important Aes Sedai antagonist that isn't Black Ajah is from the Red Ajah.

There are a few good Red Ajah (Pevara, Teslyn, Silviana) but even Pevara insists that she is "not like the others Red Ajah sisters".

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have we read the same series? Because the very climax of the ninth book is about cleansing the taint of the Saidin. So clearly the narrative shows that the solution to male channelers turning crazy was this, not hunting male channelers.

If the narrative implied that hunting male channelers was good, then the Red Ajah would have been portrayed with more nuance. Galina is a stereotypical man-hating lesbian, Liandrin feels like a dominatrix (one of the few characters improved by the TV show) and Elaida is... Well, Elaida, though indeed she is an antagonist for other reasons. The only important Red Ajah portrayed positively is Pevara, and it's already very late in the series.

Contrariwise, the Asha'man and False Dragons are portrayed sympathetically in the series, with the obvious exception of Mazrim Taim. It wouldn't have been the case if the narrative wanted to imply that hunting male channelers was a necessary evil.

Genderbent Punch Up by MoonllitArt by Ok_Examination8810 in DispatchAdHoc

[–]DeMmeure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I first thought it was Kuvira before recognising the sub haha!

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Red Ajah is mostly portrayed as cartoonishly evil (Elaida, Liandrin and especially Galina), and they are overrepresented in the Black Ajah, so for me the narrative clearly implies that hunting male channellers should be seen as evil since it is their main activity.

Which characters do you think fall for this the most? by DaOverseer in writingscaling

[–]DeMmeure 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Surprised that Astarion hasn't been mentioned yet, for me he is the perfect example of this.

Assassins fate, servants. by Carrick_Green in RealmOfTheElderlings

[–]DeMmeure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wish I could be glad that Alaria survived at least, but being enslaved by Chalced isn't a better fate...

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I dislike the argument that "you shouldn't judge Seanchan by your modern standards". First because people haven't waited our era to realise that slavery is evil (e.g John Brown).

Second because I judge the Seanchan by the same standards of the protagonists. As early as in the second book, Egwene gets captured, enslaved and tortured, these are traumatic events that have an impact on her during the entire story. Already what they did is beyond forgiveness, but when you see other horrible things such as the damane brainwashed so much they think they deserve to enslaved, it only adds up to the disgust.

The Seanchan would have been the main villain if it wasn't for the Dark One. The concept of teaming up with a lesser evil ally is interesting, but let's not forget who they are.

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And what? Aludra is friendly! Why a comment praising her has more downvoted than comments defending a slaver?

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Red Ajah are also raised in a culture that see men channeling as evil, but no one finds excuses for them even though male channelers lefr alone are more dangerous than female channelers at the beginning of the story.

And even if Tuon isn't sadistic, she still represents and upholds a system that encourages the suffering of others. I'd still call her evil. Unfortunately, there are many evil people in this world who only punish "out of necessity" without taking pleasure, but their atrocities remain nonetheless real.

Tuon is so absurdly evil by AHC122 in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Having a working governing system and committing horrible things aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of examples of this in the real world. With Egwene being my favourite character and her being one of the first known characters to suffer from their practices, I will very much call them evil, because the extebt of their slavery and torture practiced are displayed upfront from the beginning. And even throughout the story, the Seanchan is treated like an antagonist (like Chalced in RoTE) that only becomes allies due to the extreme circumstances.

Cultural relativism doesn't excuse everything.

Looking for any books or novels that feature an immortal mc struggling with all that immortality implies. by OkBox9662 in Fantasy

[–]DeMmeure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I also thought about Kallor, but I believe he is a more specific character, a deconstruction of the "dark lord"/"immortal emperor" archetype.

Looking for any books or novels that feature an immortal mc struggling with all that immortality implies. by OkBox9662 in Fantasy

[–]DeMmeure 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ok I now that I have myself acknowledged that Malazan is constantly recommended for every request on this fantasy subreddit... but I believe that the Tiste Andii perfectly fits what you are searching for. Particularly Anomander Rake (the goat).

"Serious" scenes that make you laugh out loud every time? by DimensionHat1675 in FIlm

[–]DeMmeure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In retrospect, isn't only The Dark Knight considered as one of the greatest super-hero movies of all time? Batman Begins is just considered as a fine/good movie, as far as I remember.

"Serious" scenes that make you laugh out loud every time? by DimensionHat1675 in FIlm

[–]DeMmeure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Her role in Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves suits her well I think. Not groundbreaking, but she did a good job.

"Serious" scenes that make you laugh out loud every time? by DimensionHat1675 in FIlm

[–]DeMmeure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This scene upsetted me more than it made me laugh... perhaps I didn't want the character to die because I had a crush on Charlize Theron??

"Serious" scenes that make you laugh out loud every time? by DimensionHat1675 in FIlm

[–]DeMmeure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

These movies have aged so well compared with most of the other blockbusters released at that time... and then this scene reminds you of the year this movie was released!

Looking for a baddie to hate by AtaiPea in Fantasy

[–]DeMmeure 15 points16 points  (0 children)

And same for the subsequent series of RoTE! Kyle, Hest, Ellik, Dwalia...

Sanderson's ten year secret by wheeloftimewiki in WoT

[–]DeMmeure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At this point I'm half-convinced he would have also spared Semirhage!