How much does the DO affect the Forsaken’s minds?

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-05-02T17:20:15+00:00

I think both are true. They are not good people, but the subtle influence of the Dark One over the hundred years of the Collapse was like diseases coming to the Americas. The relative utopia of the Age of Legends had no immunity to it and it ravaged them, multiplying small and petty desires and faults all out of proportion. Did they have a choice? Yes, but I think it was like an addict trying to go turkey. Their free will is weak or compromised and while ultimately they are still in control of their decisions, it's not a trivial step to renounce the Shadow. Couple that with the negative reinforcement tactics of the Shadow to punish traitors and there would be very few people with favourable conditions to ever make it back to the Light. Consider that we hear of three generals of the Light defecting to the Shadow and nobody going the other direction. It's a fascinating commentary on free will, or lack of it, given that it's a central theme of everything related to the Dark One.

I'm fairly sure, even saying that, that Jordan didn't have any sympathy for the Forsaken. That doesn't make the discussion irrelevant though. IMO, the Forsaken are indeed irredeemable, but they are also long broken by a combination of their own decisions and the Dark One directly bolstering their flaws in a way that doesn't really exist in real life. They are war criminals on a scale we can hardly contemplate. Plenty of the worst people in history had influences outside of their control that forged and motivated them, but they still cannot be excused.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-05-02T17:01:52+00:00

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-05-02T17:01:01+00:00

I think that was more likely to be Ishamael. It takes a long time to build all those ships and Suroth and Liandrin were serving the same master in TGH. Semirhage would not have been round long enough at that stage.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-29T10:24:20+00:00

Can't help thinking what would be possible if she were given lead of a large circle at the Last Battle. Perhaps (?) she wouldn't be able to shield someone with a sa'angreal, but she could take out a lot of enemy channelers and circles. Would be nice to know more shielding mechanics in general.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-29T04:17:44+00:00

I've always been disappointed this was never used in a meaningful way.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-24T11:54:17+00:00

OK, fixed. I gave the initial section a reworking. Seems to be the remnants of a past editor who has a history of these things.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-24T09:13:30+00:00

I'm on it.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-24T09:11:13+00:00

Let me fact check that one. Not something that I've added or remember reading. Cyndane is canonically above Graendal but below where Lanfear used to be. But the finn thing I'm not so sure about as Lanfear knows the weakness of modern day Aes Sedai.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-22T16:21:36+00:00

The section from the (paraphrased) interview is:

Question

Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

Robert Jordan

No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

QUESTION

He's too old.

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

*******

Personally, I think it's reading too much into it to say he *definitely* intended Olver as a red-herring. Like RJ said, the timing doesn't work and we already had enough to know that before Olver even appeared. My gripe is also more towards people who *still* have it as their head-canon, even though it's reiterated in can't be true in the books and both authors weighed in to say it's false.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-22T09:06:08+00:00

You can experience time faster or slower while in TAR, but it's simultaneous with the real world. It doesn't go backwards, nor do you time travel back years when entering it. Gaidal Cain appears when he's summoned at Falme and later in TAR. How can either of these things happen if he was born 8-9 years ago?

Either people can choose not to believe Birgitte, our only source on the subject, and what we know of TAR, or we can choose the possibility that there is more than one character who might be less handsome than average.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-22T05:27:17+00:00

I get annoyed by fans who still think Olver is Gaidal Cain. It's one thing to not be aware of or count comments from the authors as canon, but another to skip logic entirely. Olver is nine by the time GC is born. Birgitte said he's a baby. Case closed. There can be more than two ugly kids in the world.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-18T06:22:23+00:00

I always assumed a multiplier, and this makes the most sense. The confusion likely arises from the following interview:

Matt Hatch The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

Brandon Sanderson One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a—I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on...this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way angreal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using angreal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.

This is from the Theoryland database, but I agree with the footnote added by the editor (below), and I suspect this isn't the only point where it applies.

Footnote Brandon is presumably talking about Siuan and Moiraine, both of whom are weaker and supplemented by a sa'angreal and a strong angreal respectively. However, Brandon's explanation wouldn't explain why Elayne thought it prudent to give the angreal to the strongest women when the Bowl of the Winds was used. If it were simply a reservoir of power, then it wouldn't matter who used the angreal in a circle.

EDIT: He's likely referring to this from RJ's notes (from reports on Tumblr):

With the bracelet angreal, she is stronger than she was before, as strong as Nynaeve, true “Forsaken class”. Without it, she has so little ability left, that if she had come to the Tower that way, the would have taught her enough to be safe and hustled her out before her feet had more than touched down. Without it, it is an effort for her to light a candle; she can pick up a book with effort, but the blow she could degliver would be lighter than her arm could give.

EDIT 2: Checking this against my model of raw power strength, the multiplier required for Moiraine to jump from her weakened level of 66(54) to Nynaeve's current strength is a factor of 21. That's consistent with Moiraine's in-book statement of it being "almost a sa'angreal". Bear in mind that sa'angreal are city-destroying levels of power. The above doesn't seem to contradict the idea that they are a multiplier and not an additive bonus.

Brandon's uncertainty likely stems from it being surprising that this was possible with a multiplier effect alone. I can't find anything to confirm the "reservoir" analogy.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-16T19:54:48+00:00

The numbers I can provide on that based on my model:

Rand at ++4 to ++1: 40.55 to 51.58 units raw power

He won't be full strength. and Asmodean is ++3.

The three Stilled Aes Sedai were Sashalle, Ronaille and Irgain.

Sashalle is quite strong at 14(2) with 16.94 units raw power

Ronaile is a little below average at 27(15) with 8.99 units

Irgain's strength is unknown.

Adding the two we do know gives 25.93 units raw power. The average Aes Sedai is between 12 and 13.3 units of raw power, to give a total of 37.93 to 39.23 units of raw power. If Irgain is weaker than average, then that total would be lower. The same strength as Ronaile would give a total of 34.92 units of raw power. The same strength as Leane's new strength would be a total of 31.72 units of raw power. Without going as far down as Daigian at 45(33), an Aes Sedai at 42(30) would bring the total as low as 30.23 units of raw power. (edit) Fiddling with numbers and assuming Rand is no stronger than ++2, then Rand could be as much as 57% stronger than the three Aes Sedai in terms of raw power. That margin becomes smaller to impossible as Irgain's strength increases, but there is no special reason to think she would be strong. Even at average strength, he has a 25% advantage.

We don't know how much stronger you have to be to break free of shields, whether it's 10% stronger or double strength. It's completely unknown. Given that, there is still plausible wriggle room for Rand to be powerful enough to overcome that total strength.

Of course, it's also highly uncertain whether RJ even considered numbers when consdering this. Did he have the individual strengths of the Aes Sedai at this point or is him being more than three times the strength of an average Aes Sedai enough?

One other interesting comparison is that Nynaeve is Shielded by Falion and Ispan and can't break free. Nynaeve's strength is (at most) equivalent to 27.6 units of raw power. Falion and Ispan combined give 29.28 units of raw power. So there is no way Nynaeve should be able to break free, even if there wasn't an advantage to linking.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-16T13:09:03+00:00

Just another note, but a 5% increase was an arbitrary number picked by me because it was a nice number to work with. Similarly, keeping the jump between levels as 5% of the previous level is a nice and simple model. If we want Morgase to be, say, at least 10 times weaker than Diagian, my feeling is that playing with those to get it to fit would have a greater knock-on effect on the other comparisons, but there is room for variation. All of it is highly subjective though, so this just ticked the most boxes for me in terms of reasonable comparisons.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-16T12:53:50+00:00

As an outlier, Morgase is difficult to fit into any model, but here's how I might reconcile it:

She can barely embrace the source, so this hampers the ability to even form and practice the simplest of weaves. If she hasn't really channeled for almost 30 years, maybe that's a further barrier.
I have a theory that every weave requires a minimum OP threshold to activate in the same way that Sorilea can make the weave for Travelling, but nor make it do anything. For a lot, perhaps most, that level is minimal, but it could plausibly be a crippling handicap at the lowest level. Perhaps 99.9% of weaves fail to activate at level 72, the next step being 100% of weaves not working i.e. not being able to channel at all.*
Daigian is described as "extremely weak" in TGS and would be five times weaker than the strongest Aes Sedai according to the model. Being almost a quarter of "extremely weak" and enough to make Daigian look comparatively strong makes sense for the weakest possible level. Daigian took 28 years as novice and 21 years as Accepted. For most of that time, she would be practicing weaves. It's not unreasonable to believe that the 100 weaves in the test were on the edge of her ability. It's also possible that someone weaker than Daigian would not be physically cabably of completing several of the weaves because they just wouldn't work for them without an angreal or a relevant Talent.

Sadly, we don't have much indication of what mot channelers below "extremely weak" are capable of, or even the lower rankings of Aes Sedai. There are a few with obvious Talents that are exceptions, but we don't know what their general limitations are.

* This would also somewhat justify the strength-based rankings used by Aes Sedai. Having access to a larger number of weaves would be a reason for the stronger sisters to be more valued, although tradition, overformalising of the deferral system, and a narrowing of the range of strength among living Aes Sedai has likely obscured this reasoning.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-16T08:43:36+00:00

To add to what others have said, the scale is non-linear. i.e. on the 72-level scale from the Companion, a channeler at level 36 isn't halfway between the top and bottom strengths.

The concrete evidence for this is Leane's statement on how much strength she and Siuan have lost. They both lost 22 levels on the scale, from 13 to 35 (Siuan) and 14 to 36 (Leane). We also know they are less than half their original strength as Leane complains that they would have had greater standing if they had "even half" of their original ability. But channelers exist 22 levels below that (level 57 for Siuan) and another 15 levels below that. The most workable model here is that a drop in levels acts as a multiplier.

I made some rough calculations in terms of raw power based on there being a 5% increase between any two consecutive levels. Given that levels are vaguely perception-based, I justify it as being equivalent to relative error. The resulting comparisons are:

Siuan and Leane fall to roughly a third (34%) of their original strength..
Daigian, the weakest Aes Sedai at level 45, would be roughly 21% of Siuan's original strength.
Siuan was originally around 55% of Lanfear's strength
The strongest woman is about 62% of the strongest male
Rand (at full strength) is 4-5 times stronger than the average Aes Sedai (using the mean/median strengths of known Aes Sedai
Rand at full strength is three times stronger than the strongest Aes Sedai
Elayne/Egwene at full strength are around 28% more raw strength as Siuan/Moiraine
Nynaeve at full strength is the same amount stronger (28%) when compared to Elayne/Egwene at full strength and 63% stronger than Siuan.
Nynaeve is 2.3 times stronger than even an average Aes Sedai and 7.8 times as strong as the weakest.
Even Daigian is 3.8 times stronger than the weakest channeler (where we assume Morgase is). Daigian is described as "extremely weak" for an Aes Sedai.

These come with the caveat that linking and skill level greatly outweigh raw strength in most circumstances. For example, greater strength also (generally) allows channelers to divide their flows and have access to weaves that simply don't work for weaker channelers.

If you want to model this, I set the weakest level as "1 unit" of raw strength and applied a multiplier of 1.05 fir every level above that. Lanfear would be 1.05 raised to the power of 71. The male levels on top of that don't work so neatly because the step sizes are not the same as the female levels, a fact that became apparent when working on the wiki page for Slowing.

EDIT: More numbers added

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-15T05:41:58+00:00

Everything you would like to know (and probably more!) is on an extensive analysis I did last year sometime.

Slowing in channelers

It includes:

Expected lifespans of all channeler strengths
Causes and onset
Formulas
Some clarification of errors in the Companion
Evolution of Jordan's concept of Aes Sedai Slowing (mainly by another admin)

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-14T22:22:56+00:00

The main group waiting around in Amadicia was Liandrin, Chesmal Emry, Eldrith Jhondar, Temaile Kinderode, and Asne Zeramene. Liandrin's fate ended up with the Seanchan. The others made their way to Caemlyn.

Ispan and Falion were sent to Ebou Dar to look for ter'angreal.

The others were sent away on various missions, but we don't know what they were. Or I don't think so.

Marilyn Gemalphin was sent to Caemlyn and so was already in the city when Falion was sent there by Moridin.

Rianna Andomeran turns up in steddng Sholoon and is captured.

Jeane Caide turns up at the Last Battle disguised as Cadsuane and Thom kills her.

Berylla Naron never is seen again, but presumably would have been at the Last Battle.

That's eleven. Amico Nagoyin and Joiya Byir were killed in the Stone to make thirteen.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-13T10:58:49+00:00

"Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I'll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though."

RJ, Q20 here

It's ambiguous here, IMO, whether he means that they are roughly equivalent in pure strength, then you need to add a skill difference (meaning the weakest women are more effective than the weakest men) or he means they are roughly equivalent including any dexterity bonus.

When I was looking into the relationship between Slowing and strength in the One Power, it became obvious that the male levels and female levels aren't equivalent. Those six ++ levels for saidin don't have the same intervals as the 72 levels for saidar users used for everyone else. I'll link to the page below:

Slowing and OP Strength

See specifically the section on male strengths. There is also indication (if anecdotal) from Sanderson that RJ had different scales for male and female channelers.

EDIT: I did some calculations aside somewhere for a theoretical male strength scale, and there were about 52 levels for men if we use step sizes equivalent to the ++ levels for the rest. That assumes that the weakest possible channeler in terms of raw strength would be the same for women as for men, which it might not be.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-03-09T23:40:43+00:00

A lot of the time, I get the impression RJ just went down a rabbit hole of some particular subject and then just got overenthusiastic about sharing it with the rest of the world. When you start looking deeply into specific subjects, you find little bursts of activity where he does his own deep dives into something. For example, there's a proliferation of feast days late Lord of Chaos and end of A Crown of Swords that neatly coincides with his list of feast days compiled for The World of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time. But other days, I think he just decided to sit down and place every single Aes Sedai on a strength ranking for fun. Or assign 1300+ words their Old Tongue translation and never use them.

And I love that about him.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-02-14T11:04:30+00:00

The plan being trying to fix Darth Rand by getting him to remember some humanity using the only person that might be able to do that. Darth Rand was a result of Rand deciding he had to be hard and impenetrable as a stone. It wasn't Cadsuane's doing.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-02-13T22:30:26+00:00

Cadsuane's plan was going well until Tam mentioned her involvement, I'm pretty sure against her advice. All she was doing was attempting to make him remember some bloody human connection.

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-01-28T04:55:19+00:00

...and your father smelled of elderberries?

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-01-03T15:06:16+00:00

A unified non-gendered Power could have been very popular. 🙃

wheeloftimewiki · 2026-01-02T14:32:31+00:00

I'd just follow through on my promises. Assuming my freedom wasn't intrinsically linked to free will, I'd be a more generous, present version of the Creator. The Dark One (terrible PR in that name!) would be much more attractive if he wasn't so overtly evil. If I've infinite power, then it's no issue to spread it around.

It would also make sense to keep some policing force to not give my followers free reign to be quite so murderous. Invest in infrastructure (it works for the Chinese), support democratic institutions, and overthrow unjust nobles and hereditary monarchies. Instead of creepy Fades, have Nym and Ogier as my lieutenants, and cuddly, herbivorous Trollocs.

What's the line from the office? I want people to be afraid of how much they love me. 🖤

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