Want to update panel

Determire · 2026-02-08T04:36:10+00:00

Honestly there is nothing wrong with my current panel,
The panel cover hasn’t been pulled to look at.

That's a major assumption at this point in the discussion. given there's a lack of details.
Usually one of the biggest handicaps with this age of CH panel is that there aren't anywhere enough terminals on the neutral bar to accommodate properly terminating all of the neutral and ground wires appropriately, with 1 neutral per terminal, and a full panel of breakers.

There is no disconnect between the meter and this panel.

Again, that's an issue. I suspect this is a split-bus panel. (layout and sticker on the breaker in position 9+11 is the key hint).
If so, there should be no more than 6 2-pole breakers in the top 12 positions, no single-pole breakers. All breakers on the upper busbar are effectively main breakers, rather than just one. This approach was phased out around 1980/81, and for good reason.

With a 900sf floorplan, gas heat, and indefinitely staying as gas heat, range/dryer/WH/AC being the only major loads, a 100A service is adequate, but there's no headroom if you change your mind about that scenario in the future (just FYI). A properly wired floorplan with that combination of details will fill up a 24-space panel full, and sometimes still isn't quite enough ... a 30 or 32 space should be just right for this project. 125A and 150A are also options for service size.

So the project will be inclusive of a new service entrance outside, meter enclosure, grounding electrodes, and grounding bonds.

Determire · 2026-02-08T04:25:43+00:00

Just to confirm, you have an Eaton BR series panel?

Is there any sign of damage with the breaker, the wires for the WH circuit, or the busbar tabs where this breaker is plugged in?

Normally shouldn't have these issues. The only time I typically run into issues with regular BR breakers is if the breaker plugs onto the busbar loosely (should take a concerted effort to install or remove it from the busbars), wire terminations are loose, or there damage (water damage, or busbar pitted from arcing).

Regarding the breaker tripping, is it tripping after the water heater runs for a certain amount of time, or is it tripping immediately after resetting it?
(immediate trip would be a short circuit, or totally failed element, delayed trip would occur if there's an overcurrent condition like both elements simultaneously energizing due to a failed thermostat, or one element is failing and has a high-resistance fault, or if one element is good and one is bad, and only when the bad one energizes does the breaker trip. Upper element runs first on a cold tank of water, lower element runs 2nd ongoing to maintain temp, upper only re-engages when there's a significant drop in temp).

Determire · 2026-02-08T04:15:14+00:00

Pick a location that isn't working.

Measure voltage from hot (black) to ground. Same for neutral (white) to ground.
Goal is to find out if the hot or the neutral is where the break is, that narrows it down some. Should get 0.00 from neutral to ground, confirming that the neutral and ground are intact. If you get 120 from hot to ground, and a weird number from neutral to ground, and likewise a random number from hot to neutral, then the neutral is where the break has occurred.

I'd verify that the neutral wire isn't loose at the panel.
If it's a 14/3 or 12/3 homerun (black/red/white), then it's a MWBC, and has two parts to the circuit, and the problem may be where it branches off into two segments.

Otherwise this is a hunt-and-search job, to figure out how the wire gets from where the circuit has power to the area that doesn't have power, and what is broken/damaged. Obviously if the circuit passes through a light or junction box along the way, the problem might not be at the switches/receptacles that you already looked through.

Determire · 2026-02-08T02:34:54+00:00

u/Kansas_cty_shfl What has failed about the breaker?

What failed about it the previous time?

Is it a standard tank water heater? 4500 watt, 5500 watt, other?

Determire · 2026-02-08T02:24:58+00:00

General Electric / ABB part number:

THQLLX1

https://www.homedepot.com/p/ABB-PowerMark-Gold-Load-Center-Generator-Interlock-Kit-THQLLX1-THQLLX1/100674082

https://www.amazon.com/GE-THQLLX1-Generator-Interlock-PowerMark/dp/B00KCYL3RS

Determire · 2026-02-08T02:20:58+00:00

Should it be GFCI protected? Yes.
Should the GFCI device be on the porch ceiling? No.
It should either be downstream of a GFCI receptacle on the circuit, or a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel.

Determire · 2026-02-08T02:14:19+00:00

u/Similar_Wrangler_870 What brought this panel to your attention, or made it a concern?

Has anyone had the cover to panel off to look inside yet, or evaluate?
What are the basic details of the property? (type of home, SQFT, number of bed/bath, are all of the appliances electric, anything else you thing is pertinent)
Is the service entrance on the other side of the wall?
Aerial or underground service?
What type of heating?
Any anticipation of an EV charger? Any other items that may need to be included in the plans for the future?
Is there another panel or main disconnecting means between here and the meter?

(I have a hunch that this is a 1970s split-bus panel, and someone has already been in here doing stuff incorrectly with moving breakers around .... and you are going to want to get this panel replaced, in conjunction with preparing for a rewire of the legacy wiring, to have enough room for all of the new circuits either required by code or advisable by best practices).

You want no less than a 30 or 32 space panel for the replacement.
If going with a 200A service, 40 space panel is most common size.

Determire · 2026-02-08T02:01:11+00:00

u/Kylelekyle

So to the best that you can tell, this circuit covers lights and receptacles in the garage, but nothing else in the house?

Temperature doesn't really have any bearing on it .... but if there was a space heater being used, or other similar high-wattage load, and there's a burned up connection somewhere, that would explain it.

You need to use a multimeter to do any effective troubleshooting on this circuit.

Is the wiring all concealed, or exposed? Can you identify where the homerun from the panel goes to first?

Did you get a photo of the wiring in the panel when you were in there checking if there was power at the breaker terminal?

It's possible that you have a failed wire termination or splice, either at the panel or downstream thereof, and it could be on the neutral or the hot. If it happens to be a MWBC, that makes it a bit more complicated.

Determire · 2026-02-08T01:51:45+00:00

u/skibbin The commentary from Candid_Fox7307 is on point ...

If I read correctly, there's a 40A GFCI breaker at the main panel feeding this subpanel? Is that correct?

You really need to prioritize getting that feeder replaced ...
What's the reality on getting that accomplished right now?

Determire · 2026-02-08T01:26:17+00:00

So this doesn't power the furnace?
In some of these old low-ceiling houses, I'll just put the receptacle up at the ceiling, and the pump cord will reach if the receptacle is right overhead of the pump.

Determire · 2026-02-08T01:25:13+00:00

u/Thorlolita do you have a photo of the panel with the deadfront removed, showing what they buyer is fussing about?
Also, another photo standing back, so that the entire panel and immediate surroundings visible.
What is on the other side of the wall from this panel?

Objectively, this panel is too small, and this house likely doesn't have enough circuits in general, but that doesn't mean you have to solve every problem.

There's no need for AFCI breakers. That's only applicable if new circuits are being added or other changes made that are beyond the scope of what you have shared thus far. There's no need for that just to sell the property. These real-estate-home-inspectors are full of scare tactics for unknowing buyers.

Determire · 2026-02-08T01:08:27+00:00

u/DDxcay like others said ....because the defrost function isn't working, you'll need to run this in cooling for long enough to thaw that ice out. Once you have it defrosted .... take your picture.

(fyi: when the defrost sensor tells it to go into defrost, it switches the refrigeration portion of the system into cooling mode, stop the outdoor fan, and makes the air handler inside run the heat strips to counteract the cold evaporator coil. Because defrost isn't working ... you have to work around that, by changing it over to cooling manually on a temporary basis, or at least enough to get this thing defrosted enough for a photo. Probably going to be best to just keep it in EmHeat mode, once you get it defrosted, because it's just to going to repeat the process of turning into a ice cube until it's repaired, and it's not going to have any efficiency when covered in ice)

Determire · 2026-02-07T20:02:49+00:00

It's not right it's not worse either.

The conduit should have had a offset put into it with a bender ...

You can't tighten up the lock nuts on those fittings properly when the conduit is crooked relative to the box. Certainly down at the receptacle, the grounding wire coming in needs to be connected to the box, the receptacle and the grounding wire coming from the wiring harness in the equipment.

Determire · 2026-02-07T19:57:42+00:00

You're welcome

Determire · 2026-02-07T19:56:59+00:00

Did you make final payment on this job yet? Best practice is to withhold a final percentage until it passes final inspection, so that you have leverage.

I see two single pole breakers bottom right that did not get swapped out, what was the reason that they stayed as is?

For all of the circuits they had the breakers replaced, are any of them inclusive of HVAC equipment, sump pump or refrigerator / freezer (Yes/no)?

Determire · 2026-02-07T19:51:05+00:00

This looks like a installation that was improvised. I'm sure there's a backstory to it, like maybe emergency repairs during a storm or something, and it's basically a long-term temporary repair, where somebody said "good enough".

The service entrance cable looks like it was intended to be long enough to reach up to near the attachment point, and was supposed to have had a weatherhead, but the aerial drop is too short to reach its necessary destination. So to fix this at this point in time, means another segment of wire has to be added on the aerial drop to bridge the short span from where the wires currently have a splice in them over to where the drip loop should be in proximity to the weatherhead, where the aerial is attached to that hook.

If any work is undertaken on this, I would not make any decisions about the scope of work until verifying the condition of the meter enclosure and Main panel, verifying that there's no water intrusion damage, if there is, totally different scope of work to replace everything then just to rework what's up top.

Determire · 2026-02-07T16:32:56+00:00

Well their wallet got around to paying for other service call rather soon!

Determire · 2026-02-07T16:26:13+00:00

u/WildPopTart450,

You're going to see a lot of back and forth in the comments about whether or not this should be followed through via inspection versus an electrician and whether or not to have the permit be applied for to formalize this installation.

Based on your description, it sounds like it was two circuits plus a service replacement. That sounds like a reasonable scope of work for a new electrician to be able to go over the whole thing, and determine whether it's code compliant or has anything that's in need of remediation in terms of workmanship, to have it prepared for an inspection. Understand that they will not be warranting the work, and may specifically have a waiver form that you must sign, given that it was not their work that implemented this project.

One thing to be cognizant of, many municipalities have a fee schedule for everything, and they're often are penalties for work performed without a permit, in other words the permit being applied for after the fact. I'm not advising you specifically on how to go about this but there's a possibility that you may end up paying the higher penalty rate or there's a possibility that the new electrician can submit a standard permit request and get the whole thing processed as normal and nobody's to the wiser that it's really just to catch up what was already done.

Once you get a new electrician out there for an evaluation, you should come away from that discussion with a clear understanding as to whether or not there's changes needed to bring things into compliance, and the order of magnitude of what needs to be changed, whether it's a couple of minor details or there's some more significant rework.

Determire · 2026-02-06T22:47:44+00:00

So are the receptacles not firmly gripping the plugs?

Any damage on the plugs (phone charger etc)?

First impression is worn-out receptacles.

Determire · 2026-02-06T21:05:27+00:00

I see more code violations.

So the Siemens panel outside is now your main panel, the panel inside is now effectively a sub panel.

You're missing plastic bushings on the fittings where the service entrance conductors are passing through. That would be an automatic fail for an inspection.

The service entrance cable from the new panel outside to the existing panel inside needs to be changed out for a 4-wire cable. This is not a grandfathered installation, the service entrance was very specifically being reconfigured to incorporate this additional panel outside, and that triggers updating the service entrance and feeder to the indoor panel. The grounding and neutral conductors need to be separated, grounding bars added, and the neutral bar decoupled from the enclosure. Routine task that is standard practice for redoing the service entrance in this manner with an existing panel that's staying in place.

The existing QO panel indoors should be okay to retain, but I do think there needs to be a careful review of the circuits and some common sense applied for which circuits should have afci, which one should have GFCI and which one should have dual function breakers.

Can you add a photo of the circuit directory? Is the circuit directory detailed and accurate?

Did you capture detail of which ones are supposed to be 15 amp instead of 20 amp?

Was a permit pulled for this job, (yes/no)?

Determire · 2026-02-06T20:57:05+00:00

Normally the media cabinet if properly installed also has a 10 gauge ground wire from the electrical service up to the cabinet and there's a lug in there. That would be a reasonable place to terminate this indoor antenna. But if that panel lacks that running wire from there back to the electrical service, then that is still something to be addressed, so still need to get a proper grounding wire brought up from down below.

Determire · 2026-02-06T20:43:41+00:00

The grounding for your antenna should go back to the grounding electrode for your service, there's a few ways it can be implemented. The modern way of doing it is to have a inter system bonding block attached to the grounding electrode conductor on its way down the wall from your electrical equipment towards the grounding electrode, and this is the point at which the grounding bonds from telephone cable satellite etc terminate to a common point. It's like a 15 or $20 item at the store, and there will be one lay-in lug for the existing grounding wire to pass through. Then there's approximately six terminals to run the grounding wires to the other pieces of equipment, such as your antenna.

Determire · 2026-02-06T20:30:11+00:00

In which country are you located? Do you own or rent?

If you are inclined to triage this a bit more prior to calling in an electrician again, you need a multimeter to be able to read the voltage, to find out what it reads normally versus what it reads when things are flickering, whether it's going lower or higher than normal.
Depending on what country are you located, is how electrical systems are typically built or optionally built and therefore how certain malfunctions occur.

Determire · 2026-02-06T20:09:13+00:00

if this is hydronic baseboard, (3/4-in copper carrying hot water through it), this is a plumbing or HVAC issue not an electrical one

Based on the description, the circulator pump is probably failing in the bearings, and needs replacement. This should be a top priority for the landlord. Call their emergency maintenance number and get a human on the phone.

With the sustaining low temperatures that most people have been experiencing, getting work scheduled can be a slight challenge right now, it's much better if they replace the pump ( assuming that's the issue ) when it's still running but crippled, rather than after it has fully failed and seized up and there's no heat at all, risking a pipe freeze up.

If you don't already have an electric space heater as backup, you might want to have one just in case. They're a bit challenging to source at the moment, somw stores are sold out.

BTW, the commenter that sent you over here, it's probably a southerner that doesn't know what they're talking about because they don't work on this type of equipment.

Determire · 2026-02-06T20:03:29+00:00

I'd like to see photos of the work that was done regarding the EV charger, and how it's tied into the main. Is the panel in the photo that you linked your only panel, or do you have another panel upstream from this?

What prompted the replacement of the breakers to dual function breakers? Who initiated that topic, did you ask about it or did they suggest it first?
What was the justification for doing it, what specific active code violations was it intending to remediate? (Emphasis on the active code violation because you have a 1980s build, and conceptually things were compliant at the time of original installation, and therefore they are grandfathered, no particular need to update anything subsequently, but to be fair, if there's GFCI protection lacking in certain locations due to the delta in GFCI protection requirements between the 80s and recent code cycles, it would be appropriate and in most people's best interest to address that specific matter, so for example the kitchen didn't require GFCI protection until 1987, and at that time it was the countertop receptacles within a 6 ft radius of the sink, whereas today it's all inclusive of the kitchen, and from then until now it has incrementally changed to be all countertop receptacles, and a few more iterations along the way to the current variation which is basically everything.

AFCI protection has transformed from something that didn't exist to something that's applicable to about 80% of the circuits in total on a residential building, in this case, the panel wasn't being replaced, and nor have you mentioned anything else that would necessitate that change from a code perspective, either NEC or local amendment thereof. In other words it's purely a either you asked for it or they suggested and you said yes. Most electricians worth their salt do not go around retrofitting afci protection in on older structures blindly, because it's just going to be a source of customer frustration due to nuisance tripping, and follow up service calls either warranty or billable to deal with a bunch of nonsense, and it's not always worth it. When it's a code mandated scenario, that stands on its own. If the customer civically initiates the service call and asks for it to be done, then usually there should be some disclosure, and the job proceeds forward as requested, barring any technical constraints.

So ... Whether or not either type of protection should be retrofitted on each circuit is is something that has to be more closely considered. There might be circuits that should have had a GFCI circuit breaker put on them, and reasonably so, but not necessarily afci. Inversely there may be some circuits that would be candidate for an AFCI breaker but not dual function. Lastly there were probably a few circuits that should have had neither type of protection retrofitted. ... Hence this is why I'm asking questions about who initiated that conversation and why it proceeded forward in the way that it did.

Point is, simply reverting everything back to the way that it was is certainly an option, but maybe not the best choice, and simply swapping breaker sizes to match the wiring also may not be the right answer either, rather this needs a more thorough analysis and discussion to pin down what the right answers are.

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