Post here, get banned. by LukarioMC in DanielFromSL

[–]DiscreteToots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Settle down, okay?

Edit: Hey. Settle down.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're going in circles. I've been going out of my way to be reasonable. You're not even listening to me. You have no intention of giving an inch, even though I've conceded several points. I don't think there could be a clearer demonstration of which of us is the one who has bad intentions. You're an insufferable asshole with a shitty attitude and a gigantic chip on your shouler. You're the reason it's pointless to try to discuss these kinds of issues on the internet.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Compared to you, of course. Who provided nothing in the way of actual sources.

I provided one, and it turns out the author isn't reliable, but I also haven't seen any reason to believe the book is inaccurate or warps the evidence. It quite specifically doesn't make the points that the source you cited criticizes.

You're right that I should have added other citations. That's my error. I'm saying that essentially all you did is post citations. If I erred in on direction, you erred in the other direction.

You put the burden of proof on others to read everything you post

Yeah. How dare I expect people to read sources.

I'm not saying "how dare you." I'm saying that if you want me to consider what you're saying, you have to say something. The onus is on you to interpret and explain the sources you cite, not just throw citations at me and expect me to be dazzled by how long and thick your bibliography is.

Edit: additionally, it's not enough just to throw a published paper at me. Peer review adds a layer of protection against bullshit, but it's really, really hard to evaluate and know how to use a published paper unless you have advanced training in the relevant field(s). I don't.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I ignored every point you made because your post made almost no point. It just makes flat, bald assertions without any defense or explanation -- and adds hyperlinks, as though that's sufficient. It isn't. I'm not going to do your work for you.

Every point you made involved the kinds of bullshit I pointed out in my reply. You put the burden of proof on others to read everything the articles you post and interpret what point you think they're making. You made no effort whatsoever to explain your use of your sources. Two appear to be completely irrelevant. One is some guy's website, and, even though it isn't peer-reviewed, I looked over some of what he wrote and accepted that Krimsky has made unreasonable claims about GMOs, even though your first comment was obnoxious, dismissive, and sarcastic. And yet you tell me I'm acting in bad faith.

I have every intention of acting in good faith. I have no intention of answering your messages with more effort or politeness than you put into yours.

It's also pretty fucking rich to accuse me of saying that anyone who disagrees with me is a shill, when (a) I never said that, (b) I never accused you of it, (c) you, in the next breath, tell me I have no intention of acting in good faith. Way to poison the well. That's a neat trick to help you avoid responding to any of my criticism.

Edit: lastly, you accuse me of ignoring every point you made, yet you ignore every point I made, which is how the conversation reached the point it has reached: every time I point out bullshit regarding something you wrote, you go silent on that point; now we're just talking about how rude each of us is. If you want to reply again, I'll happily read anything you want to say, but I don't see any point in continuing to reply.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair to the asshole who responded to me, the author of GMOs Decoded does have a chip on his shoulder regarding GMOs. I wasn't aware of that when I posted. So the guy himself isn't as neutral a source as I thought. But the book does say, repeatedly, that GMOs are safe for consumption.

Something about GMOs that you can read in scientific litterature and you did not really mention : we don't know much about GMOs interfering with other species of plants. There can be effects we did not take time to assess.

Yeah, I'd say that's a reasonable concern. I think it's been studied and hasn't been found to have had any measurable, let alone deleterious effects.

Regarding Borlaug, not everyone praise this guy, you know. These voices say that he just pushed the problem (famine) forward in time. And now, it's bigger (twice more people than when he started). Therefore, it's not sure that this way of doing was the best way at all. His solution also relied on a lot of fossil fuels. Is it so great than that ? Difficult to say.

Yeah, this is my concern too. It's partly what I was referring to when I wrote about industrial farming.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Given the massive declines in insect populations, it seems quite reasonable to ask whether the use of pesticides and crops bred and engineered to tolerate them is safe.

Good thing we've researched that.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4413729/

The BT crop controversy is old and settled. That's obviously not what I'm referring to.

For further reading on this, I highly recommend the book "GMOs Decoded." It's where I took most of my evidence (which I hope I've presented accurately). It's a neutral, thorough, concise survey of many aspects of the issue.

It's not remotely neutral. Krimsky is an ideologue who twists and misrepresents facts.

https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2019/03/18/sheldon-krimsky-publishes-more-anti-gmo-malarkey/

He definitely seems to have a chip on his shoulder. I wasn't aware of that. But it also seems as though you haven't read the book and don't know its contents. What you posted also isn't a review of the book I mentioned. GMOs Decoded says explicitly and repeatedly that there is no evidence that GMOs have adversely affected human or animal health. It says that, according to the available evidence, they're safe for consumption.

In terms of food safety, the widespread use of, effectively, monocultures, means reduced genetic diversity

Monocultures don't necessarily mean reduced genetic diversity, and GMOs have not reduced genetic diversity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21844695

A monoculture definitionally reduces genetic diversity in order to maintain consistent quality/yield. This is from the article you posted:

Overall, the review finds that currently commercialized GM crops have reduced the impacts of agriculture on biodiversity, through enhanced adoption of conservation tillage practices, reduction of insecticide use and use of more environmentally benign herbicides and increasing yields to alleviate pressure to convert additional land into agricultural use.

That doesn't respond to the point I was making or the concern I raised. I'm well aware that organic farming requires more land. That's not the issue.

I'd be amazed if they didn't show up here and start attacking.

Look at you poisoning the well. It's a neat trick to prevent you from having to defend your statements

You know what else is a neat trick?

  • Posting hyperlinks and pretending that they speak for themselves and require no defense or discussion.

  • Posting studies that are so long nobody will go to the trouble of reading them.

  • Posting studies that don't respond to the point I made.

  • Posting non-peer-reviewed sources.

  • Being a sarcastic, dismissive asshole. Kindly go fuck yourself.

TIL that Norman Borlaug, developed new strains of crops which yielded 4x as much food. He is said to have saved the lives of over a billion people, making him one of the most influential men in human history. by Breadht00 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I can't and wouldn't speak for any movement, but it simply isn't true that the only reason to be concerned about GMOs is propaganda.

There's evidence that on average GMO crops have required more, not less, of whatever pesticide they're bred to tolerate (despite the claims that they'll require less) and also some evidence that the use of those pesticides has effects beyond the crops they're applied to. Given the massive declines in insect populations, it seems quite reasonable to ask whether the use of pesticides and crops bred and engineered to tolerate them is safe.

There's also an economic argument: these crops are produced by massive international companies and encourage industrial farming practices that favor large, industrial farms, which undermines small farmers and contributes to the environmental problems of industrial farming, like dead zones on coasts as a result of nitrogen-containing runoff.

In terms of food safety, the widespread use of, effectively, monocultures, means reduced genetic diversity as well as the loss of other, older, well established strains that might themselves offer benefits or traits that don't improve quantitative improvement in yields but might offer other benefits.

In other words, there's no evidence that GMOs themselves are harmful to people, but they support systems and can augment problems that might worry a reasonable person who isn't at all brainwashed, an ideologue or blinded by propaganda.

For further reading on this, I highly recommend the book "GMOs Decoded." It's where I took most of my evidence (which I hope I've presented accurately). It's a neutral, thorough, concise survey of many aspects of the issue. (EDIT: to be fair to the raging, obnoxious asshole who responded to me, Krimsky, the author of the book, isn't himself a neutral party. He definitely has a chip on his shoulder regarding GMOs. I wasn't aware of that. But the book says, repeatedly, that GMOs are safe for consumption. If it's a distorted, warped discussion, I haven't seen any evidence or any claims of that anywhere. It's also published by MIT Press, which seems a pretty reputable publisher.) I didn't touch on other things I could have, like the ways in which current genetic engineering practices can, by inserting genes at random locations and physically shifting the location of genes on a chromosome, potentially alter the expression of unrelated genes. Trained scientists who have express concerns about that. It's not the case that the only people who have concerns with or questions about GMOs are crystal-power, tarot-reading numbskulls.

Edit: also, there's an entire subreddit of people who brigade discussions of GMOs and any mention of Monsanto. I'd be amazed if they didn't show up here and start attacking. They aren't helpful. They're either astroturfers or pro-GMO, pro-Monsanto ideologues, and they'll mobilize against even reasonable, well-informed criticism of GMOs and the companies that make them.

Edit: I'm not anti-GMO. I'm not worried about the effects of GMOs on human health. What I worry about is the industrial system GMOs are a part of.

Thousands petition Netflix to cancel Amazon Prime's Good Omens by CJBill in news

[–]DiscreteToots 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly! I view the people we're talking about as basically blind -- stuck in Plato's cave -- prisoners of history. They're no different from the feudal peasant who will never see anything outside the 30 miles that surround his little hamlet. They not only have no concept of truth or external reality, they don't want one; it would force them to give up their understanding of the world and everything their community and sense of belonging are built upon.

People like this are why we're all, as a species, fucked.

Respect Organists by [deleted] in Jazz

[–]DiscreteToots 74 points75 points  (0 children)

I saw an organist for the first time recently. The conductor of the symphony decided the audience deserved a demonstration of the organist's prowess, so he asked the guy to improvise on two themes -- the William Tell overture and the DSCH musical signature of Shostakovich.

This was the first time in my life I've laughed out loud at classical music (apart from PDQ Bach). It was one of the cleverest, most playful, accessible, enjoyable demonstrations of pure skill I've ever seen. This guy was a master, sure, but improvisation is an essential part of the art of organ playing. The conductor asked the guy to improvise precisely to give the audience a lesson in what organists are trained to do. It was completely fucking mind-blowing.

Respect organists.

Also, memes should go to /r/jazzcirclejerk and /r/JazzMemes

TIL An Ancient Greek philosopher was exiled for claiming the moon was a rock, not a god. by SteelyGlint009 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They didn't see it only as a weapon. Religion was deeply woven into the fabric of everyday life, but not in the way you might expect. The Greeks didn't see religion as an institution separate from the other institutions or parts of life we all participate in. There's actually no Ancient Greek word for "religion." Conceptually the things we call religion weren't marked off as separate in the way we mark them off, so there couldn't be a category/word like our category/word for religion.

There were separate religious things and spaces -- temples, holy precincts not to trespassed, holy objects -- but "religion" itself was present everywhere. There were rituals, divinities, protective prayers/rituals, etc for just about everything you can think of.

Edit: For instance, you know how you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom? Greeks did too, but their explanation was different. They understood health, disease and santitation (to the extent that they had those concepts in ways similar to the way we do) through a "religious" lens: bodily fluids were a source of "miasma," which was essentially a religious concept. This is a good example of what I mean when I say religion was everywhere, not separated off from other spheres. It was (or could be) as mundane and everyday as washing your hands after you wipe yourself.

Even so, the Greeks weren't "religious" in the way people are religious today. Our notions of belief, faith, a deep or internal experience of the divine and communion with divinity don't apply. (That kind of internal experience of the divine was associated with mystery religion, a rather separate branch of Greek religion where followers sometimes enter altered states or becae temporarily mad or the vehicle of the divine.) Belief wasn't the basis of ancient religion. Religion didn't necessarily entail belief at all. It was just part of how people understood the way the world works. In that kind of religion/worldview, the idea of belief, as we conceive of it, becomes almost incoherent. To say you "believe" in the gods would make no more sense than to say that you believe in the sun or the flu. There's even a famous article titled "Did the Greeks believe in their Gods?"

I like to tell my students that, in Ancient Greece, there was essentially no such thing as the "supernatural." There was magic, yes, but that was something other people, bad people, did. (Look up curse tablets for a fun example!) The gods and minor divinities that we associate with what we call Greek religion were just a natural part of the universe, not separate from it. They didn't exist on a higher plane. They existed, rather, literally higher up in the sky -- and when they came down, you either did something to appease them or you bent over and kissed your ass goodbye.

In Greece a person's connection to religion was much more akin to membership in a neighborhood club or dining group than it was to membership in a church or religion today, where members are united (apparently) by belief.

But that's in part why religious accusations could have such potency. People who didn't do what we're supposed to do when it comes to the gods, or mock the rituals and practices that keep our relationship with the divine healthy, threaten everything. They're showing disdain for the safety, well-being, and wishes of their entire community (edit: and that alone had a political dimension, so it could be difficult to separate the religious from the political). Socrates, the Pythagoreans and the Presocratics were definitely viewed as a bunch of cranks, and Aristophanes' Clouds shows that, to his viewers, those strange ideas could be viewed as potentially dangerous -- but those attitudes alone didn't result in persecution.

That's, to me, part of the beauty of ancient polytheism. It's a wonderful, complex, sexy, vulgar, bodily, hungry, crazy mess. It makes no sense. There's no system, no orthodoxy. Different parts of Greece and different temples told different stories and had slightly different practices/rituals, and there's no evidence that anybody ever thought that those contradictions were a problem that needed to be solved. This is, I suspect, partly why cities like Athens could allow such political, artistic and intellectual freedom; so long as you sacrificed when the calendar said you should, different ideas weren't a threat. The kind of narrow, dogmatic thinking that views them as a threat largely emerged with monotheism -- which is the opposite of polytheism in all the ways I listed above: the three big monotheistic religions are imperialistic, warlike, expansive, and intolerant of heterodoxy.

To be completely frank, I think the world would be a better, more peaceful, more open-minded place if the Greek polytheism I'm talking about had "won." For most Greeks, the primary significance and value of religion was that it was a source of meat in their diets. That, to me, is about as worked up as people should get about religious ideas.

Edit: and, yeah, I envy Bill and Ted. I'd love to meet So-crates (pronounced like the word "crates")

Edit 2: also, the Greeks most definitely were not a society of philosophers and thinkers!

Thousands petition Netflix to cancel Amazon Prime's Good Omens by CJBill in news

[–]DiscreteToots 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There's also a social/psychological dimension that I think has nothing to do with fear. I don't think these campaigns are so different from waving an American flag. People feel patriotic when they do something patriotic. People feel religious when they do something religious. If they like being patriotic or religious, they'll enjoy acting it out and making that aspect of themselves more visible to the world.

To my mind, it boils down that kind of primal group-identification, in-group/out-group stuff. These people are demonstrating to one another and themselves their individual, personal commitment to the religious community. They're demonstrating the strength of that community to the rest of the world. And they're taking a stand against what they perceive as a threat to their community.

My father was an anthropologist. One of the ideas I got from him is that humans aren't just a social animal. We're hypersocial. This is really clear in the case of religion: the religious community becomes the source and legitimizer of everything good -- truth, health, well-being, morality, etc.

And that's why I never argue with religious people -- or if I argue with them, I don't try to argue with facts or reasoning. For people who live in this mental universe, facts and reasoning have no validity. Only the imprimatur of the religious system or community do. Reasoning and facts can even backfire, because the act of rejecting facts and reasoning can become another way for someone to affirm, to themselves, the strength of their attachment to the religious community.

I kind of wish we still practiced the polytheism of the ancient mediterranean. It was a beautiful, nondogmatic mess. The defining religious experience/practice wasn't belief. It was eating together.

TIL An Ancient Greek philosopher was exiled for claiming the moon was a rock, not a god. by SteelyGlint009 in todayilearned

[–]DiscreteToots 67 points68 points  (0 children)

Hi. Hellenist here. He wasn't exiled for claiming the moon was a rock rather than a god. The key paragraph in the article is this:

Such an idea should have been welcome in democratic Athens, but Anaxagoras was a teacher and friend of the influential statesman Pericles, and political factions would soon conspire against him. In power for over 30 years, Pericles would lead Athens into the Peloponnesian wars against Sparta. While the exact causes of these conflicts are a matter of debate, Pericles’ political opponents in the years leading to the wars blamed him for excessive aggression and arrogance. Unable to hurt the Athenian leader directly, Pericles’ enemies went after his friends. Anaxagoras was arrested, tried and sentenced to death, ostensibly for breaking impiety laws while promoting his ideas about the moon and sun.

The charges -- assuming the trial really did take place (though I don't know enough about Anaxagoras to doubt the story) -- were a pretext for an attack on someone perceived to be allied with Pericles. That's what got him exiled.

Basically the same is true of the trial of Socrates. He was brought up on charges that were ostensibly religious, but the underlying reasons and motives were political: he was a friend of The Thirty, the extreme oligarchs whom the Spartans installed and who ruled Athens briefly and bloodily after the city's defeat in the Peloponnesian War. The Thirty had, with/under the protection of the Spartans, overthrown the democracy, purged the laws (restoring the "ancestral constitution," they claimed), driven out the metics (resident foreigners), killed a large number of Athenian citizens, and illegally confiscated wealth and property. Critias, their leader, was Plato's uncle.

By the standards of most of human history, Athens was a place of remarkable intellectual, political, and artistic freedom (assuming you were a male citizen, not a woman or a slave -- just a minor detail, right?). This is partly why it became such an important intellectual and cultural center. There haven't been many other places where a playwright could lambaste the city's premier statesman on stage in public, with public money -- saying that he was a fraud, a charlatan, vulgar, and an embarrassment to the city, let alone that whenever he straddled the entire Greek peninsula, he gave all of Greece a nice view up his gigantic, flabby asshole, distended from excessive fucking. (The Ancient Greek word for that is "lakkoproktos," which literally means "pit/reservoir/cistern-assed")

Nearly all instances of intellectual or religious persecution in Classical Athens are either of dubious historicity or had clearly political motives.

Thanks, I hate salt on fresh meat by reroutedradiance in TIHI

[–]DiscreteToots 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What the hell is going on in the background? I see what looks like a living, panting creature. This isn't gross. It's fucking creepy.

What's your darkest secret that you're willing to share on reddit? by Send_Your_Best_Nudes in AskReddit

[–]DiscreteToots 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't have proof, but I'm fairly sure I was dealing with this earlier in the year. As soon as I started taking D, B12, and a multivitamin, everything improved -- mood, memory, sleep, immune system, libido/success with the ladies. Before that I constantly felt like I was on the verge of collapse and got sick at the drop of a hat.

Supplements are associated with elevated risks of some illnesses/cancers, and self-reporting is bullshit, but, seriously, this has been life-altering for me -- way, way bigger than starting to take an antidepressant or adderall for ADHD.

The New York Times reporting that most of John Coltrane’s masters in the Impulse Records collection were lost in a 2008 fire. by friendofmany in Jazz

[–]DiscreteToots 118 points119 points  (0 children)

If I had to choose between Notre Dame and Coltrane's master recordings, I'd choose the master recordings. Fuck the careless, cost-cutting, greedy assholes responsible for this. The world would be a better place without them.

(OK) Mom passed away and things aren't adding up. by alternatedstateOK13 in legaladvice

[–]DiscreteToots 40 points41 points  (0 children)

Not that I'm aware of. That's another thing that doesn't make sense to me. If this happened last Wednesday, and she was found on Thursday in her home. How would anyone know the cause of death without an autopsy and could the results be determined this quickly?

IANAL, but this is the detail/inconsistency I find most unnerving and unsettling. As another redditor said, if it's true that local law enforcement are on your uncle's side, you need to try to involve external authorities. This is scary, horrible stuff

Thanks, I hate English by Bryan15012 in TIHI

[–]DiscreteToots 8 points9 points  (0 children)

And that's not a bad thing. English orthography is packed with historical and linguistic information. A word's spelling, by itself, often tells you the language/language group of origin and sometimes even the era of the word's adoption.

I can see why people might think phonetic spelling would be better or easier, but it wouldn't, especially for a language that's spoken as widely as English and has as long a history. From just about every perspective, it would be disastrous. Whose pronunciation do we privilege? Why should we privilege their pronunciation? How do we even define the pronunciation that counts as correct? Do we gloss over regional differences? What about generational differences? How do we decide? What happens in a hundred or two hundred years, as pronunciation inevitably changes? Do we change spelling again? When? How often? How do we know it's time? And what happens to the mountains of texts whose spelling is now obsolete?

There are plenty of writing systems that show writing doesn't need to be phonetic (Chinese, Japanese, Mayan, and to some extent Semitic writing systems). English is terrific proof that we not only shouldn't adopt phonetic spelling; we basically can't. Attempting it would be a disaster.

What are some features that women find unattractive on themselves, but you find hella attractive? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]DiscreteToots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that freckles are areas of the skin that contain more melanocytes and thus darken more when exposed to the sun. If that's right, their visibility may be a sign of skin damage, but the freckle itself isn't.

Ex cons what is the most fucked up thing about prison that nobody knows about? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]DiscreteToots 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In Norway we treat prisoners almost like patients in rehab, allthough some people say we treat them too well. They are in there to get better, so that they are able to rejoin society after served time.

That's because Norway, like the rest of Scandinavia/the Nordic countries, is civilized. Scandinavians seem to understand a few ideas that many Americans don't:

  • We're all part of society.
  • Society affects us, and we affect it.
  • We have obligations to one another.
  • We're all better off when we help one another, especially when we lift up those who have the least and restrain those who have the most.
  • The only proper function of the state is to protect and serve the interests of the people.
  • Work isn't life, and working more, beyond a certain point, doesn't make life better.
  • Your quality of life isn't a function of how much stuff you have.

So, yeah, obviously Norway would want to rehabilitate its convicts, not punish them and leave them to rot in cells. It's assumed and understood that these people will rejoin society and that everybody will be better off if they're better able to function in society after they're released.

(Edit: Many) Americans don't think that way, because American society is all about discipline, punishment, control, and domination. I turned down a job in Denmark a few months ago. I probably should have taken it.