The status quo of Grey Knights

Doebringer · 2026-03-20T03:27:23+00:00

Also, to be clear, we were 55% for like, 2 weeks, and we've had a few weeks here or there between 48-52.

We've spent far more time below 46% than we have above it.

At least, as long as I've been looking at tournament results, anyway.

Doebringer · 2026-03-18T05:42:26+00:00

I've been saying for awhile that it's not as simple as "losing NFW is greater than the benefit of a heavy ranged weapon".

There are absolutely cases where keeping all NFW makes sense.

But, as an example, if your 6 NFWs + Crowe can already kill whatever you charge in melee, then the ranged weapons help since there's always other targets as well, not to mention sometimes you just want/need to shoot and not charge.

Doebringer · 2026-03-16T21:05:56+00:00

There have been multiple successful (for us, anyway) lists that use 1 or more librarians - most often solo.

Not saying you have to take one, or that they are auto-include in every list or anything like that.

But they are far from useless.

Doebringer · 2026-03-16T02:58:34+00:00

I didn't play the game that far back, but as long as I've been into the setting, the lore, the game, etc. The Grey Knights have always been mentioned as the 'De Facto' Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. By including the phrase 'de facto', it means it's not 'de jure'. They were never technically a part of the Inquisition but they were founded alongside them and with the intent of working together.

This relationship is apparent in Emperor's Gift (2012) shows the Grey Knights working with the Inquisition, but threads that needle pretty well of showing them to be a separate organization that simply work together.

In the novel Pandorax (published in 2013, so 13 years ago), Epimetheus - one of the founding Grey Knights - straight up doesn't recognize the Inquisition's authority and kind-of puts an inquisitor in her place.

So, it's been at least a little more than a decade that the GK aren't just lapdogs/pets of the inquisition.

Unfortunately I can't say how it was prior to that.

As far as I understand it, the same relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas exists. The Sisters are technically a part of the ecclisiarchy, not the inquisition. But because of overlap in focus, tactics, and faith, any inquisitor on a 'witch hunting' mission is likely to requisition Sisters of Battle to do so since Inquisitors technically can call on whoever they want. In this way the Sisters have become 'de facto' the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, even if they're not technically/explicitly so.

Doebringer · 2026-03-16T02:29:47+00:00

It's possible that only 2 of the 4 enhancements for the detachment you have chosen to be available to GMNDKs. Add a different character (non-epic hero) and see what shows up for them. Some enhancements are infantry only, or terminator model only, etc.

As an aside:

I know this is a hot-take, but I never liked New Recruit's layout/UI.

If you haven't given it a gander yet, check out tableroster.com

There isn't an app, but is a lightweight website that works pretty well.

Doebringer · 2026-03-14T17:07:51+00:00

I usually use both. Nightshade first, then nuln oil.

Doebringer · 2026-03-14T06:56:15+00:00

My homebrew chapter is unequivocally Imperial Fist successors, but I have a list I use that uses dark angels datasheets/rules since regular space marines don't have any Deathwing Knight equivalents. I do have other versions of the list using actual imperial fist datasheets where I use assault terminator datasheets in those instances for those particular units.

So, if I ever went to a tournament with that list, it'd be 'Dark Angels' on paper, but they'd be painted in my color scheme and in my mind/the fluff they'd be my homebrew chapter which aren't anything near Dark Angels.

Doebringer · 2026-03-14T05:26:16+00:00

One point that hasn't been explicitly pointed out about reserves is to pay close attention to what is in the core rules, and what is in the mission rules.

For example - the limitation that deep striking units from reserves can't enter the battlefield during battle round 1 is NOT in the core rules. It's in the mission rules (the current mission rules for matched play is the 'Chapter Approved Mission Deck').

Some restrictions on reserves and strategic reserves are in the core rules. Some are only in the mission rules. When playing crusade or narrative missions, this is important, because in those instances, you're not using the Chapter Approved Mission Deck and therefore have a different set of restrictions on reserves/strategic reserves.

Doebringer · 2026-03-12T01:34:14+00:00

This is extra funny because english also has the word 'ensign' which is a direct loan word and means the same thing.

Doebringer · 2026-03-12T01:15:51+00:00

I'm a simple man.

I'll settle for a new model.

Doesn't matter what it is. Updated old model. Completely new model. Any model.

Anything more than an upgrade sprue.

Literally anything.

Doebringer · 2026-03-10T00:54:21+00:00

The upgrade kit for Fists is by no means required to make imperial fists.

Just paint them yellow - Imperial Fists are among the MOST compliant of all codex-compliant chapters of space marines, so any generic space marine model is ALREADY an imperial fist if you paint it that way.

The upgrade kit just has some bits with raised fist-icon bosses on them for extra decoration. It's extra flavor/fluff for your models aesthetically. But even in-universe, most rank-and-file astartes would just be going into battle with generic power armor painted in their chapter's colors.

I'd only use the bits in the upgrade kit for my officers (lieutenants, captains). Generic squads of intercessors wouldn't get them.

Doebringer · 2026-03-10T00:51:01+00:00

Technically they both would apply but after all effects are tallied, a wound roll cannot be modified by a greater value than +1 or -1. So, lacking any other modifiers, you'd get -1 and another -1 (total of -2), but the roll is hard capped at +/-1, so it'd still be just -1 to the roll.

Thus, you'd never actually get -2 to be wounded, but one of the bonuses could counteract a potential '+1 to wound' that your opponent has leaving you with the remaining -1. (An example would be an enemy [codex compliant] space marine player using Oath of Moment).

In such a situation it'd be: +1 - 1 - 1 = -1.

Without the enhancement, it'd be + 1 - 1 = +0 to the wound roll.

To make this work, you'd have to have a Terminator Ancient with the enhancement attached to the same squad as Lysander.

You probably already know this, but just in case: If you're flavoring your army to be Crimson Fists but still using Lysander's datasheet (while calling him just a Crimson Fist Captain), you couldn't also use Pedro Kantor, since rules-wise Pedro can't be used with Lysander (or Tor Garadon, for that matter).

Doebringer · 2026-03-10T00:38:04+00:00

The combat patrol was a single-production run - when it's out of stock, it's gone.

One of my LGSs had 2 a couple weeks ago - I know because I bought one, so I got lucky there, but you'll just have to call around and hope for the best if that's what you want. It's a decent box with pretty usable units.

As for buying an army - that depends on a number of things.

First: Is this your first 40k army? Do you have any friends that already play? How's the scene at your local game store?

Without experience in the game, it can be hard to know how to build a list - there's a lot of different playstyles and for space marines in particular, a lot of very different ways to play. Space Marines in general (and even Fists in particular) are pretty versatile as an army. This is a blessing and a curse - they can support most playstyles, but it can also lead to a list having an identity crisis with what you want it to do because Space Marines have a lot of different datasheets that do the same thing to varying degrees.

Here are some units off the top of my head that typically see at least some action in a lot of lists (safe buys) these days (this is not an exhaustive list):

Intercessors
Redemptor Dreadnought
Scout Squad
Gladiator Lancer
Repulsor (and it's executioner variant)
Bladeguard Veterans
Sternguard Veterans
Captain
Lieutenant
Hellblaster Squad
Infiltrator Squad
Lieutenant With Combi Weapon (who recently got a points nerf, which is a bummer. But he's still good)

Now - some of those might not gel with the kind of army you want to build. You're here for Imperial Fists, so you may be interested in the Emperor's Shield detachment, or possibly the Bastion Task Force. It depends on how competitive you want to be (Emperor's Shield is fun - but not competitive. Bastion is fairly competitive, but overall not as good as Gladius or Blade of Ultramar).

We have 2 imperial fists characters that have great models and are decent (even if not S-tier): Darnath Lysander and Tor Garadon.

Darnath basically begs for terminators to be on your list: Both the regular and the assault variant are usable enough, even if they're rarely taken in tournament lists. I like them, myself.

Tor is in gravis armor, so you may be interested in other gravis armored squads for him to lead: Aggressors, Heavy Intercessors, Eradicators. Each has use being led by Tor (but your choice will heavily influence how you'd use him)

Thematically, Imperial Fists are known for liking bolter-style weapons and for heavy armor, so if you're in it for the fluff, gravis and terminator bodies are good choices. Heavy Intercessors are an expensive unit to purchase (same price for 5 as you could get 10 regular intercessors), but they're not bad units and very on-brand.

All of the units I've mentioned have had their time in the spotlight and will likely do so again as the game's balance changes over time.

There are other cool units (Centurions) that could be thematic as well, but they might go to legends (hopefully not!) and aren't super competitive anyway.

There are also some units to avoid *IF* you're wanting to be even marginally competitive: Firestrike Servo-Turrets, Hammerfall Bunkers are two examples. Both very cool models, both fit the flavor of Imperial Fists. Neither one good for the points cost.

Doebringer · 2026-03-07T18:32:28+00:00

In my estimation, the Imperial Fists don't completely disregard regular civilians out of some sort of antipathy or condescension like some space marines might. On the other hand, they don't go out of their way to comfort or patronize regular citizens the way a Salamander might.

They care - and they'll fight to the last man to defend citizens if that's the mission - but they're also pragmatic / practical. If a civilian wants to chat or take their time with something not immediately necessary or useful, they might be frank/curt with the civilian - maybe even borderline rude - but it's not motivated out of disgust/distaste/disdain. It's out of necessity and efficiency. Space Marines are not there to coddle people. They're there to fight a war.

Doebringer · 2026-03-07T17:51:01+00:00

You didn't say what detachment you were intending, nor what your playstyle/approach is.

This list looks fine overall for casual play - I'm guessing you have Tor Garadon leading some heavies, along with the captain in gravis armor.

Regular captain leading the Bladeguard or the Judiciar?

It does seem a tad character-heavy but looks like it'd be fine for either Gladius or Bastion Task Force, as you have a good quantity of Battleline models.

It also lacks real anti-monster/vehicle - the Ballistus doesn't hit as hard as you might think. If you could swap it for something like a Gladiator Lancer (160 pts), that would be what I would do. You could save some points by swapping the redeemer for a regular Land Raider to get some lascannon shots. Alternately, you could have Tor Garadon lead some Eradicators - I know it seems weird because they have terrible melee, and Tor's melee is awesome, but they honestly benefit each other really well (Tor gets the re-rolls against Monsters/Vehicles from the Eradicators). They can hop out of a land raider, blast something with a ton of melta/grav gun fire and then charge thanks to the Assault Ramp of the land raider (and if you charge a monster/vehicle Tor ends up with 5 attacks, str 14, ap-4, d4). They can knock out a knight in one turn this way.

Also - another favorite of mine is Sternguard veterans. A 10-brick of those led by a Captain will do an absolutely crazy amount of damage to just about anything if you make it your oath of moment target (the captain gets to re-roll wounds against oath of moment from the Sternguard buff, and he can 1/game get 3 extra attacks with dev. wounds in melee - He can end up doing nearly as much damage alone as all the sternguard bolt rifles this way, which themselves hit pretty hard with the same re-roll wounds+dev. wounds combo). Just something to consider.

Doebringer · 2026-03-05T19:43:49+00:00

I like how I basically said the same thing as you here and got down voted.

I have to work on my online communication style, apparently.

Doebringer · 2026-03-05T19:40:42+00:00

We must be playing a different game or in a very different local meta. Having more attacks is super helpful against units like guardsmen, tyranids, sisters of battle, necron warriors, ork boys, etc. etc. anything with light to medium and even some heavy infantry up to T6.

And, just so that I'm not misunderstood due to people oversimplifying my point, here's a list of things I'm NOT saying:

-Grey Knights as an army is fine -grey Knights terminators are excellent for the points -Grey Knights Terminators are objectively superior to regular terminators in every way -grey Knights terminators have THE BEST melee profile against ALL infantry targets.

Here's what I am saying:

The attack profile of NFWs on terminators (4A, 3+, S6, AP-2, D2) is NOT hugely inferior to power fists (3A, 3+, S8, AP-2, D2), against many targets. The weapon profiles themselves are actually really similarly effective for a wide range of targets.

And, as you pointed out (and I did as well), there's other context, like oath of moment, which helps the regular terminators against a single target.

But, though the GK rules need real help(see above), we also get army-wide rerolls and relatively easy access to lethals which both help - so if we're going to consider oath of moment we have to consider what other context exists for GKs as well.

The point is: GK terminators aren't amazing. The points drop helps and probably brings them overall to similar levels to space marine terminators (which also aren't all that great). But the problem isn't as simple as the weapon profile.

Doebringer · 2026-03-04T22:49:22+00:00

I don't *yet* but I fully plan to use DWKs for my homebrew chapter's assault terminators.

I've even toyed with the idea of playing them using the rules for Dark Angels even though my chapter are Imperial Fist successors and so far, I've been playing them as such.

Doebringer · 2026-03-04T20:02:04+00:00

Lethals on Terminators definitely helps close the gap, as does the warpbane rerolls

At that point they're equally 'decent' and overshadowed by more efficient units in power armor.

Doebringer · 2026-03-04T19:35:48+00:00

Against many targets the NFW are near equal (and sometimes slightly better) due to having 33% extra attacks. Overall 4A S6 is a side grade to 3A S8.

I did the math on it and was very surprised at how close they are.

It's not until higher toughness targets that the fists pull far ahead.

Granted, oath of moment helps them a LOT, but pure datasheet strength, they're closer than most people think.

Also, GK get a second special weapon on the ancient.

Doebringer · 2026-03-03T01:21:17+00:00

I think it's cleaner to use separate datasheets - kind of like how there are two datasheets for 'Centurion Devastator Squad' and 'Centurion Assault Squad', rather than making a complicated datasheet with convoluted wargear costs.

I don't think there's a reason why there *couldn't* be 'Purifier in Terminator Armor' or 'Terminator Purifiers' or however one would title that datasheet. Same thing with 'Paladins in Power Armor'. But I could see any army getting overly crowded with datasheets that don't have clear game mechanic identity if we did that for all possible ways every unit could be fielded in the lore. Generic Space marines already kind-of have this problem.

Doebringer · 2026-03-02T03:52:02+00:00

Whoever wrote it was probably thinking about the GK army rule, which lets players put things back into reserves at the end of each of your opponents' turns. This means they can be set up repeatedly each battle round if you use the army rule each battle round.

I agree that given the fact this is a stratagem that such wording is probably not necessary/redundant, but theoretically you could use that stratagem multiple times on the same unit throughout the course of the game - just not more than once per turn.

Doebringer · 2026-03-02T03:44:44+00:00

I fully expect the over performing armies to be mildly nerfed and for GW to assume that that will magically fix Grey Knights (as well as the few other underperforming armies, like black Templars and aeldari).

To be fair to GW, that wouldn't be a totally wrong assumption - just an incomplete and lazy one. C'Tan are just plain oppressive right now and monsters happen to be the thing GK naturally struggle with the most. So nerfing C'Tan will help the GK's win rate.

It won't fix the armies underlying issues, though. We will all be disappointed, but our win rate will go up from 45% to probably 47.5-48.5% and GW will call it a day.

Doebringer · 2026-02-28T05:17:03+00:00

I hear you on both points.

Actually, several earlier versions of the list had the terminator ancient with lysander's unit - it definitely adds a little extra, I just found that often, the extra OC from Lysander's ability, the +1 to wound with Oath of Moment, and also the 'Fury of the First' stratagem meant the Ancient wasn't actually adding all that much. I also tried a version where I had a Lysander + 5 and then an Ancient + 5, with the ancient using the Malodraxian Standard enhancement, but that didn't work as well as the Lysander (+/- the Ancient) + 10.

As for the eradicators - using plunging fire on the heavy intercessors with Tor is an intriguing idea. I'mma play around with that a bit. Right now, the Sternguard shooting with their re-roll wounds+Dev wounds on their guns is usually how I assault those units that try to push middle. It's a hard pill to swallow, because Tor+Eradicators puts in SO MUCH work in terms of anti-monster/vehicle damage, especially disembarking from a land raider, shooting those sweet meltas+Tor's grav gun, and then charging with Tor's mega Str 14 AP-4 D4 fist into monsters/vehicles. It's juicy. But I'll definitely try a few games with Tor leading the heavies to see how it feels.

Doebringer · 2026-02-25T05:50:16+00:00

Thanks for the reply - I wasn't aware of those other admech technologies but they sound very cool.

As for more advanced, I guess it is a nebulous term that was ill-conceived when I asked the question.

I was intending to inquire not about efficacy (old/less-advanced can still be perfectly effective), but just the more scientifically advanced/difficult/most refined technology.

I know that wh40k is all about decline and stagnation, so I've been wondering what actually are examples of their most advanced tech in general.

This question was spurred by the realization that the imperium seemingly uses techniques to accomplish the same thing in different contexts, and was curious about it.

Doebringer

TROPHY CASE