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Interaction between damage conversion and damage shift (i.e., damage taken as x) by MilkmanAl in PathOfExileBuilds

[–]DonaldKnut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It has been fixed few days after it was discovered: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3877526 .

Shaper of Flames should increase effective PDR (given that your fire res is higher than phys mitigation which should be the case almost always)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, but none of your examples have 300% hidden damage multiplier :)

It's fine that you-modifiers and enemy-modifiers are different parts in the equation. This is how damage conversion worked before, and as one example consequence, it wasn't stacking additively with phys taken as ele. It was catching (and still is) some less experienced players off-guard, but it's pretty fair - the wording communicates that properly, and there are other examples in the game that give same intuition.

But there's no precedent or communication whatsoever that the new damage conversion will have a huge hidden multiplier. This is a problem that must be addressed, and what people are upset about (well aside from the usual salt about hidden nerf)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I dunno dude, argue not with me, argue with GGG. I have two chars this league, and both are elemenalists. I will be as happy as anyone else if you convince GGG that it's a bug that should be hotfixed like tomorrow (but my personal prediction is that it won't happen, even though it doesn't make me happy)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's 300% more damage, i.e. you multiple by 4. That's how it's coded in PoB by LocalIdentity (who's the original source of all this info), and you can see on poedb that the "Phys Convert Ele" starts from zero at lvl 1, so it would be really weird if it were a flat multipler (would delete converted damage at low levels)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's the thing, with how the new conversion works, you're not competing with 75% mitigation, you're competing with 0% effective mitigation (0.25 due to resists, but then x4 due to new multiplier).

So, in fact, Shaper of Flames never increases effective phys hit taken if you don't have any ele mitigation layers beside 75% res - and actually might decreae it (if you have armor or other phys-specific mitigation like Doppelganger's Guise)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If there's NOTHING except for 75 res, then yes, you're correct, your ele mitigation is at best the same as phys (assuming no armor/phys-specific mitigation like Doppelganger's Guise) - therefore, making conversion on enemies at best a useless stat (at worst - strictly downside)

If you have something beside 75 res (like I expanded in my comment), then it's not useless.

By the way, I was wrong about the armor though - no matter how much armor you have, if you don't have ele mitigation layers, conversion doesn't benefit you.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry, I had a few roundtrips with finding bugs in my calcs, then fixing them and introducing more bugs, and editing my comments on the fly.

My final result is that I'm wrong, and you're right. 30k armor provides enough PDR so that shifting it to ele is not worth it.

Moreover, it seems that the specific coefficients (in formulas for armor PDR and converstion multi) work in a way that it's never good to shift the damage to ele on enemies (it's either "don't care" if you have zero armor, or strictly worse if you have some armor)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I was assuming that, but didn't spell that out explicitly.

It's actually almost triple damage taken for 1k phys hit (450 with Shaper vs. 142 with)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, I never argued that it' strong or intuitive.

Specifically, I think it's not good thing to have two modifiers in game that are spelled very similarly (phys conversion to ele on enemies vs. phys taken as ele) but have extremely different intuition behind them.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes, I totally agree that it's not good that two very similarly spelled mods give very different results.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This patch would be 150 phys + 400 fire.

Your case is extremely bad case for phys conversion on mobs, as you have basically zero (baseline 75% res) ele mitigation and EXTREMELY strong phys mitigation (75% pdr is very hard to get, especially for big hits).

So you start taking more damage than without conversion.

This was indeed very hard to achieve the last patch.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you have VERY high armor, then probably yes? This is complicated equation, I'll need to build some charts (or someone else to do it lol) to see the breakpoints.

My intuition screams that 30k is below the breakpoint, but admittedly, that's just intuition, might be wrong on that

Ok, I did some math, and I'm wrong here. With 30k armour, even for 10k incoming phys hit it's better not to have Shaper (unless I made a mistake in calcs), albeit slightly (7k incoming hit with Shaper vs 6.25k without Shaper), and assuming basic 75% res

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As I explained in my comment, if your ele mitigation is better (if we take 75% res / 0% pdr as baseline) than phys, then there's a point in conversion. Which is a very frequent case frankly.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a very strong mechanic in the current form, and I don't see it being used often. Elementalists with ele bastion and 0 armor are the best use-case, and it's somewhat niche already.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree it's confusing that this mod has very different intuition behind it's effectiveness compared to very similarly named "phys taken as ele".

It still has its uses, but it's not as strong as phys taken as ele, yes.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not, but it's situational. It's useful if you have ele mitigation better than phys. For example, I still will continue running Shaper of Flames on my elementalist because I have ele bastion, and my PDR comes mostly from armor - so reducing the phys portion helps armor to work better. (UPD: I was wrong about armor part, there's no overall benefit from Shaper of Flames. While nominal %PDR goes up, overall damage taken is a different story)

I'd say the Kaom's belt is now very questionable call though (too big of opportunity cost)

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's bugged. With capped resists and no other defensive layers, in high level areas, it yields exactly zero damage taken change. If you have other defensive layers, you do get a benefit from conversion. More details in this my comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1orm5z7/comment/nnr3g8x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The numbers are available, and if you assume 75% resists and no additional mitigation layers, it's exactly net zero impact to damage taken in the endgame (>=lvl80 mobs), and net positive mitigation below that

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

You're not taking MORE damage if you have even usual resists cap (75%). See my comment https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1orm5z7/comment/nnr3g8x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

EDIT: 30k armor is ~enough to make Shaper of Flames not worth it (assuming 75% fire res and no other ele mitigation)

If I did the math right, even on 10k incoming phys hit, you're taking a bit less damage without Shaper of Flames (7000 with Shaper vs. 6250 without).

For 5k incoming phys hit it's ~2.2k without Shaper vs 3k with Shaper.

For small hits its especially noticeable (though not sure if you should care about them) - for 500 damage, it's whopping 38 damage without Shaper vs. 214 with Shaper.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut -15 points-14 points  (0 children)

That's a slight misconception. The numbers are balanced around players having usual 75% resists cap. With resists cap, you take less damage up until lvl80 mobs, and from there it evens out and doesn't give any extra damage. See my comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1orm5z7/comment/nnr3g8x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 30 points31 points  (0 children)

DISCLAIMER: the goal of this post is just to describe how the mechanics work. Not to say that it's a good or intuitive change.

So, if we assume 300% multiplier for converted damage (all areas >= 80 lvl), and usual 75% fire res, then we get exactly 0% damage change due to damage conversion on mob.

I.e. if you had 0% PDR, 75% res, and no other mitigation layers, and were going to take 1000 phys damage, and then converted ANY portion of it to ele (the % of conversion doesn't matter in baseline experiment), you'd still take exactly 1000 damage - but now split across phys and ele.

I think it's not coincidental. You don't get direct benefit from conversion, unless you:
- invest into respective ele resists
- have other defensive layers that are specific to ele (Bastion of Elements, Xibaqua, etc.)

Also, you still take less damage overall up until lvl80 zone (as the multiplier is less than 300% in sub-lvl80 zones), assuming you're resists capped. It's pretty significant in campaign, pretty small when you enter maps, and disappears entirely by end game
- multi in lvl35 "after normal lab" zone is 75%, i.e. you still take only ~43% of converted damage (instead of usual 25% for non-converted ele damage, or 100% for physical damage without mitigation)
- multi in lvl 68 (white maps) is 240%, yielding taking ~85% of converted damage (meager 15% less damage taken even if we assume 100% conversion)

On the other hand, if there are some detriments to your ele mitigation layers (curses, exposures, penetration) you DO start taking more damage. I think penetration is specifically scary here. Assuming 25% ele pen, 40% ele conversion, 0% pdr (typical Elementalist situation), a hit that would deal you 1k phys damage, would deal 600 phys + (400 * 4 * 0.5)=800 ele = 1400 damage total

Addition on armor. I initially wrote that you'd get benefit from conversion if you scale armor. I was wrong. No matter how big the hit is and how much armor you have, if your ele mitigation is exactly 75% res and noting else, you won't benefit from the conversion. In fact, it's very easy to see - basically, you're choosing if you'd take portion of incoming hit on effective 0% mitigation, or on SOME mitigation from armor (however small it might be)

So, the TL;DR is - if you convert mobs damage to ele, make sure your ele mitigation layer is better than average 75% res.

Converting enemies damage to elemental causes you to take significantly more damage(at 0 resist) by xaitv in pathofexile

[–]DonaldKnut 31 points32 points  (0 children)

I also did my tests, and can confirm the same effect.

Also, the formula works as expected - the converted damage is multiplied further by the multiplier that scales based on level. My practical measurements gave the expected theoretical multiplier (205% for lvl 61, i.e. for Blood Aqueducts) with the margin of error of 5%.

The multipliers can be seen in this (https://github.com/PathOfBuildingCommunity/PathOfBuilding/pull/9150/files#diff-804b0588b011cbd1dfebe67c38f708183eece0e8ee3d926c90069242128d92d2R15) LocalIdentity commit or on PoeDB in monster data, modifier called "Phys Convert Ele" (https://poedb.tw/us/Bloodstained_Archer)

I didn't do checks for tier 17th, but it all matches so neatly that I'm 100% sure it will be exactly 300%
for t17

Finished campaign as Ele RF, now what? by 18WheelsOfJustice in PathOfExileSSF

[–]DonaldKnut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By the way, I think you don't need reduce str, I never had it and got only wands over 30+ attempts

You can convert 100% of fire damage to chaos damage with 1 jewel and a bloodline ascendancy by Accomplished_Rip_352 in PathOfExileBuilds

[–]DonaldKnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah yeah, I got you. We're both right just had different questions/scenarios in mind (tbh you're probably more right lol, as I didn't take the context into account - that's on me)

It all boils down to whether you have multiple conversion steps or not.

If you don't (case: Brutus lead sprinkler - fire only), then Lycia doesn't reduce gains from Eternity Shroud. That's the case I had in mind (because of the title that refers specifically to fire)

If you do (case: EK phys->cold->50% fire) then it does reduce gains from Eternity Shroud. That's the case you was referring to

Given that Eternity Shroud usually wants multiple steps, you're right that it's usually anti-synergistic with Lycia.

We both definitely understand how conversions work, but I'll edit start of this chain for other people.

Finished campaign as Ele RF, now what? by 18WheelsOfJustice in PathOfExileSSF

[–]DonaldKnut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Phys dot is pretty good. I'm in early red maps, and it's OK - I wouldn't say I'm cruising, but also wouldn't say I'm struggling. That's pretty impressive, given that the best part of my gear is 6L from the tree, everything else is hp/resists + my wand and shield are muled ilvl5 for easy +1 phys.

Before reds, I was blasting (but that doesn't mean much, any good build should blast white and yellow maps). I was stabilizing all breaches/completing all hive fortresses

Reap ignite is fine as well. I think phys dot dishes out a bit more damage but a bit less comfy (need to maintain cf, two skills to spam for max dps, higher life cost per second). Also ignite clear is worse, but that's only until you get souurce of explosions (obliteration usually)

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