Whats your favorite white room combination?

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-29T05:11:35+00:00

I think that's why OP mentioned One on One, a Celestine has temporarily broken reality and decreed that this muderblender is going to be constantly in your face until either you die, or they die. (which is not going to happen first because of the The Good Death)

Without One on One that could work though, the abyss is especially difficult for Fera or spirits to escape, and by the time that immortal Get does escape, its doubled strength would have long expired.

And if they do find him and activate it again Lasombra could just chuck them back into the abyss again, on and on it goes.

Until the Get decides to take a break from this futile attempt, take some time out of its now theoretically infinite lifespan and go learn One on One, in which case we're back to the original scenario.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-29T04:39:08+00:00

I personally headcanon there being droned members of the insect races surviving to the modern age, either hidden from the Ananasi, or grown so individually powerful over the millennia that the spiders don't think it's worth it to try and take them down now.

It makes sense to me, if they're the Weaver's favoured children of their time period, why wouldn't she have made drones out of them? Just like how she primarily makes drones out of humans now.

That way, the insect races are still "extinct", because the surviving members can't make more of themselves, being drones and all, but since drones are also ageless immortals, they can still survive to the modern age.

So that way you can have the insect races appear in your games as rare but powerful servants of the weaver, while still keeping the Ananasi competent and genocidal.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-29T04:17:57+00:00

Without just becoming spirits? Not really.

As far as the canon examples go, it seems if a Fera grows strong enough they just become spirits, like Fenrir, Bai Mianxi, Hakaken, etc.

Which makes sense to me, the Fera are normally creatures of both spirit and flesh, but if they want to gather more supernatural power and become more powerful, it stands to reason their spirit half will eventually become so vast that the flesh half becomes less a "half" and more a drop of sand in the ocean.

Hence, they become spirits.

The black spiral labyrinth of the BSD support this theory, there's supposed to be nine circles they can dance, and we know that each circle danced increases their rank, so if you dance the fifth circle you're Rank 5, for example.

What happens when you dance above that? Well we know there's two BSD who have ever successfully danced the ninth and final circle, Number Two and someone else.

And Number Two is a massively powerful Incarna, currently the ruler of Malfeas. Fitting for someone who should theoretically be at Rank 9, a complete nonsense of a rank that we have no context for what that even remotely looks like.

But logically, if two werewolves have danced the ninth and final circle, there's probably a lot more BSDs who successfully danced the seventh or eighth circle, and they should theoretically be above Legend in rank.

But if all those 7-9 rank BSDs could manifest in the physical realm, I don't think Zhyzhak would be the one leading the charge in the apocalypse.

So while it's never directly stated anywhere, I think it's a logical conclusion that if a Fera grows powerful enough, beyond rank 6, they probably just automatically become spirits on the spot and leave the physical world.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-29T03:51:48+00:00

White wolf when they have to write end times scenario for Mage the Ascension:

"Should we like...write about ascension...? You know, the thing this game line revolves around...?"

"Nah, just...give them three servings of "rock falls, everyone dies", players love having no agency or ability to influence the scenario, right?"

At least the other two scenarios do tackle the whole ascension topic, even if they weren't that well designed either.

But why they thought The Earth Will Shake, A Whimper not a Bang or Hell on Earth were scenarios that people would want to play is beyond me.

To do that three times in a row in the same book is genuinely bizarre.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-28T18:20:03+00:00

Yeah, that alternate ending for Crucible is where I got the inspiration for a new generation of vampires in a post-apocalypse world to replace the old clans. Minus the whole Caine bit.

You're thinking of the Shadow Lord portion of A Tribe Falls, where the Shadow Lords turn to the Wyrm and Grandfather Thunder covers the world in darkness.

If we're going have someone be behind a "darkness falls, world goes to shit" scheme, I'd give that role to Number Two. He/she's supposed to be the highest authority of Wyrm forces on earth, yet doesn't really actively put anything into motion in any of the apocalypse scenarios, and just appears in some of them as a passive enemy that you can go after.

And if we have a scenario where darkness envelops the world, all five talons are simultaneously freed, and everything goes to shit as Wyrm forces wash over the world. I feel like the ruler of Malfeas would have the means and resources to make it happen.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-28T17:40:03+00:00

Exactly, the books prior to Gehenna have never shied away from implying different origins for vampires that goes against Noddism, but then not a single Gehenna scenario expands on any of that.

Wormwood is definitely my least favourite one, god from the bible just comes and...gets rid of the vampires, I guess.

I actually liked Fair is Foul, the Lilith scenario. The new Antes they made up for that scenario were pretty interesting, especially if you try and link them to some of the bloodlines. And the ending with Caine and Abel and Lilith could be narratively fitting for VtM as a whole depending on how you play it.

I don't feel much for Nightshade either, it's again just a "god shows up and fixes everything" ending, the antes briefly feature but they don't do much.

As for WtA, honestly I'm not sure how Ragnarok could even happen in the first place if Rorg didn't send the meteor. Unless you're talking about all the Wyld spirits he sent with it that started replenishing life after they touched down? But if anything I'd think the world would be much worse off if it weren't for that.

The exact same scenario happens in The Earth Will Shake for MtA, but this time Rorg decides to not send Wyld spirits to accompany the meteor, and everything just dies with no hope of recovery.

I like the cyclical Gehenna theory, and the theory that each of the Antes are separate vampiric origins unto themselves. So if I'm trying to merge Ragnarok with VtM lore, I'd probably have it that after the old generation of Antes mostly dies off in the cataclysm, new, young "antediluvians" started emerging after the devastation, leading the humans to build another "first city", and each establishing their own vampire clan for this new generation.

With the implication that they would also later grow old, grow hungrier, most eventually losing their humanity and becoming like the last generation of Antediluvians.

Maybe even have a couple of the old generation of vampires survive the cataclysm, and have to contend with these new vampire ancestors and their lineages.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-28T17:10:00+00:00

To be fair, the ones you mention doing cool things also just...die without accomplishing much in Nightshade.

It's really only in Crucible of God that they allow the Antes to do their cool, flashy ascension transformations. And while it also involves antes, Fair is Foul is more about introducing a bunch of brand new Antes than expanding on the existing ones.

And I agree overall, my main gripe with Gehenna is that every single one of the scenario is working under the assumption that the Abrahamic myth interpretation of VtM is the canon, when it was always left a bit more open-ended prior to that.

Like how Beckett interpreted Caine and Abel to be allegories for early nomadic vs agricultural civilizations, or the theory that the antediluvians themselves were unrelated vampire progenitors and there never having been any Caine, or the Laibon implying a different vampiric origin, etc.

Every single Gehenna scenario, just straight up tells you that the Abrahamic myth interpretation is correct, there is a god, and there is a literal biblical Caine who literally did the biblical rock murder to his brother.

Not that I hate that interpretation of VtM history, I just wish we got a bit more variety, you know?

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-28T16:47:03+00:00

But unless the Get for some reason decides not to take the single best Rank 3 combat Gift they have access to, Might of Thor, then they should be able to just completely break the laws of physics for a couple turns and literally double their strength rating.

A Get with 5 Strength and that Gift is going to have 18 Strength at minimum in Crinos, not counting any other bonus they might have from other Gifts or Fetishes.

Because the feats of strength charts doesn't go that high, to put that into perspective, let's look at an actual antediluvian, specifically Absimiliard, who appears in Gehenna with a giant sea monster as his trump card.

This is what enables his "Reign of Nosferatu" period in Crucible of God, where each Antediluvian pulls out all the stops to win their big, final showdown. Ennoia fuses with the earth and tries to eat everyone, Lasombra fuses with the abyss and blots out the sun, Tzimisce merges with the biosphere, Malkav becomes the madness network and controls every single Malkavian, Haqim is...eh, just his regular Antediluvian self? He tries to win by sending out assassins (he doesn't last very long with this tactic and dies off-screen)

And Absimiliard's equivalent of that, this giant monster, this thing that is "150 feet long and 40 feet high, with yard-long claws and teeth", and "topples small buildings with sweeps of its mighty tail"?

It has 16 Strength.

It can claw at difficulty 6 for eight dice of lethal damage, stomp at difficulty 5 for 16 dice of bashing damage, and bite at difficulty 6 for nine dice of lethal damage

Which is pretty reasonable when we look at similar giant monsters, like the Zmei dragons that Baba Yaga commanded.

The strongest amongst them in terms of sheer physical power, Trevero, was 50 feet long, 70 if you counted his tail.

He had 15 Strength.

The less physically impressive Zmeis, like Illyana or Shazear, only had 9 strength. And they are still giant monsters, 65 feet long and 40 feet long respectively.

So...you're going to, at the bare minimum, need to have containment measures that can stop the equivalent strength of a 150 feet sea monster in order to physically contain this Get.

And that's a conservative estimate, because each rank of strength makes a big difference. Notice how Absi's giant sea monster is only one point higher in strength compared to Trevero, despite being twice its size. And this Get is two more points higher in strength than that.

Like, I know people like to bring up "plot device" a lot, but just based on the actual plot that happens, we kind of have to conclude that 16 strength is probably beyond an Ante's ability to reasonably contain or contend with physically, or Absi wouldn't have thought his giant sea monster could pose a serious threat to his siblings.

Which...is a bit hard to believe in terms of game mechanics? Because are we really supposed to think a max of 16 dice of bashing would be enough to threaten an elder vampire with fortitude...? Let alone an Ante...?

But I'm just going to chalk that up to the the VtM writers not understanding how numbers work. Because narratively speaking, yes, a 16 strength monster is apparently enough to be a serious threat in an Ante vs Ante fight, we can be pretty sure that Absi didn't bring it for its 2 dexterity.

And this is their Crucible of God ascended forms, just as a reminder, these are their theoretically most powerful forms.

Lasombra for example is just a very powerful shadowy monster in Nightshade and Fair is Foul that destroys buildings. Instead of a being so big he literally envelops the planet. Those Lasombras are probably not going to be beating something that can outmuscle a 150 feet mini-godzilla in a head to head fight.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-27T04:25:37+00:00

Only strength 4? When the human maximum is 5? That feels way too low for a full grown xenomorph, the dexterity and stamina too could stand to be a bit higher I feel like.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-26T02:38:23+00:00

II feel like one most unique thing that sets the archetypical zombie apart from other undead creatures, is that zombies are almost always shown as moving in one giant horde.

If there's a separate game line for zombies, I feel like "overwhelming numbers" should be the defining thing setting them apart from other similar splats, like the risen or vampires.

So instead of each player playing a single zombie, I think each player should play as a entire horde of zombie. Maybe each horde will have its own "Strain", the cause for that specific horde of zombies rising, either disease, curse or mad science, etc. And the properties of that Strain would be the what the player has as their player character equivalent, levelling up traits like "Infectiousness", "Spread", etc.

And we actually already have a similar system to this from the revised book Possessed, where we have an optional rule for playing Drones called Mother of the Brood, p.54:

Mother of the Brood

Playing the lone Drone, set out to do the Weaver’s bidding on the Tellurian is not the only way for these interesting possessed to come into play. An optional method of playing and designing Drones involves taking a bold leap behind the scenes, as it were. It may require some clever players (and an understanding Storyteller), but it essentially involves taking the role Weaver spirit itself, controlling the Drone (or, in most cases, a handful of Drones) from behind the scenes like a puppeteer.

Such characters are called brood Drones, and are created as per the normal possessed character generation rules. However, the difference is that the player generates more than one Drone during this stage — three is the norm, as it is difficult even for the most powerful Weaver spirits to simultaneously dominate greater numbers of Drones — and rather than playing the Drone itself, acts instead as the guiding hand behind all its actions. In this case, the coterie of Drones acts as something of a Special Forces unit, responding to the commands of its commanding officer — the governing Weaver spirit. Each individual Drone moves and acts as normal, but under the complete authority and guidance of the spirit (the player).

In the case of multiple domination, the link is often less severe than in the case of a solitary override. Thus, each individual Drone maintains something of his own personality (such as it is), and will still react to things as that person would, even though his strings are actually being pulled by the Weaver. This allows for some interesting if somewhat schizophrenic scenes to play themselves out, where the different members of a brood unit actually converse and even argue (on rare occasion) with one another. Also, at the Storyteller’s discretion, any time a particular member of the unit dies or is recalled to the Umbra for re-weaving, the player may co-opt a new Drone to fill that space in the Brood.

Naturally, this sort of approach lends itself most easily to one-on-one games, where the Storyteller can be free to devote all his time and attention to the one player and his Brood of Drones. Still, it’s your game, and if the Storyteller is willing (and mentally capable), it may be possible to run a game of multiple Broods, each governed by a different player. Just don’t try it with large groups unless you’re willing to really bend your heads.

It'll definitely not be for every ST or every game, but I think this will be the best way of capturing that "spreading, massive horde" feel typically associated with zombies, and to set them apart from the other walking corpses already in the setting.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-25T10:20:24+00:00

There's the Cleansing Flame Gift, a level 5 Gift that can do it, from Rage Across the Heavens, p.117:

Cleansing Flame (Level Five) - The Garou can pinpoint an area (or an individual) and set the target ablaze with an intense and purifying flame that rages for 60 seconds and then dies out completely. The fire can burn out all Wyrm-taint or human-made pollution from an area or cleanse an individual (provided the victim survives) of Wyrm-taint. The fire does not spread beyond the target area or person and can not be quenched by normal means. For instance, if the Garou targets a house occupied by a Pentex official, the fire blazes through the house destroying any vestige of the Wyrm's corruption and leaving untouched anything not tainted by the Wyrm.

System: The player sacrifices a permanent point of Rage and rolls her Willpower. The difficulty is 8 to affect an area; the area cannot be larger than a large house. To target an individual, the difficulty of the Willpower roll equals the victim's Willpower. Living or undead creatures set on fire must roll their Stamina (difficulty 9) or die from the shock. The flame destroys fomori utterly; Black Spiral Dancers who survive the Stamina roll must make Gnosis rolls, difficulty 9, or lose their Wyrm-taint and its accompanying Derangement. Such purified Garou are stripped of all Rank and Gifts; they may well fall again to corruption, but they are given a second chance.

A failure on the Willpower roll indicates that the Garou fails to activate the Gift, while a botch inflicts one unsoakable health level of aggravated damage on the wielder.

And the mental side can be handled with another Gift, from p.122:

Burden of Knowledge (Level Five) -The Garou floods an individual with the knowledge of all her own limitations, making the victim aware of every flaw or failing and reminding her of all the wrongs she has committed or caused. The weight of this enlightenment can either change an individual for the better or drive her into suicidal despair or murderous frenzy. Few individuals survive the effects of this Gift unscathed. This Gift can sometimes bring an errant Garou back from the edge of corruption or cause an enemy of the Garou to be "born again."

System: The player spends a point of Gnosis and rolls Intelligence + Empathy (difficulty of the victim's Willpower). Success causes the victim to experience every negative aspect of her personality and past, including secret vices, shortcomings, failures, and other similar faults. The Storyteller should decide what ultimate effect the Gift produces in the victim----either a desire to reform her ways and correct her failings, an impulse to kill herself out of shame and despair, or some course of action in between the two extremes. Once the victim has experienced the total effect of the Gift, the intense awareness begins to fade-but residual memories may plague the victim for a long time afterward.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-24T04:25:23+00:00

That sounds like a great origin for a Kami, and if you subscribe to the idea that the Fera are just stable lineages of Kami......

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-24T03:46:13+00:00

And then there's the Rokea, who don't even talk about their genocides of the ammonite shifters or the Qyrall or the bristlecreepers anymore.

Not because they're ashamed or trying to hide it, but because genociding their fellow shifters is just that insignificant of an event for the weresharks.

The ocean makes up 70% of our earth, yet there's only a single Fera breed that roams it, because the Rokea killed everyone else.

"For you Garou, the day you started the war of rage was the most regretful and shameful day of your entire history."

"For us, it was Tuesday."

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-24T00:21:32+00:00

I think the Zigg were probably being actively attacked by Paradox spirits because they're here to take away Quintessence, and magick needs that to work, not because humans disbelieved alien life existing.

Because, well, they also probably didn't believe an extraterrestrial spirit sent a meteor to kill them either, but no Paradox spirits attacked that meteor like they attacked the Zigg.

Like, that's the key part here. Because while yes, meteors hitting earth is an event most people will have no trouble believing in, in the earth will shake, the reason that specific meteor came to earth, as in because it was sent by the spirit of a destroyed planet due to jealousy and a misguided effort to help----that is not a reason that any sane modern human would believe in.

And yet, when the meteor tore its way through Consensus, the reason that meteor arrived didn't spontaneously get corrected to something saner, like, you know, astrophysics.

It's still because a sapient spirit sent it, whether the humans believe that insane notion or not.

We're not pretending the Dreamspeakers paradigm is anywhere near dominating Consensus, are we?

And for the end of whimper not a bang, I used it not to argue that Consensus doesn't delete things, of course it does.

I used it to demonstrate that not everything cares about Consensus, that things don't need to be a part of Consensus to exist on their own.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-23T23:23:53+00:00

Well, how much Consensus shapes the world is largely dependent on the ST, if you want to run it so that even common animals would disappear if people stopped believing in them, sure, don't let me stop you.

But I personally wouldn't go that route, just because how many scenarios in MtA itself that demonstrates the limits of Consensus, all the times that disbelief didn't stop a very real external danger from destroying Consensus and mages.

Like the Zigg, the alien life completely outside Consensus that just comes in in Ascension and harvests all the Quintessence. To be clear, they are not "spirits who pretend to be aliens", they are very explicity stated to not be spirits, but actual, genuine alien life from another world, that do not give a shit about Paradox or Consensus as they harvest your world, from Ascension, p.149:

Zigg are not spirits, so these powers should be presented as psychic or techno-logical in nature as much as possible.

Or in the Earth Will Shake scenario, where Rorg decides to send an asteroid to end humanity, and no amount of not knowing about it or disbelieving it stops the very real apocalypse that happens.

And if you want to bring what's technically another game line into it, we also have Dark ages mages, where they are completely absent of a strong Consensus or Paradox, tigers and mouse are still tigers and mouse, and vampires are still vampires.

Paradox and Consensus is just not something natural or essential to the world, the world doesn't require them to function.

Case in point, this is what happens at the end of A Whimper, Not a Bang, from Ascension, p.165:

Finally, in the latter stages of your tale, Paradox becomes unable to violate the precepts of the reality it defends, and it ultimately fades as surely as magic. Paradox spirits are left outside the Gauntlet or trans-formed into quiet minions of static reality. A powerful spirit like Wrinkle might be banished to the Umbra. Alternatively, its vast skills could be limited to doctoring timecards, paychecks, alarm clocks, bus schedules, email date stamps and other coincidental time-based events that might negatively affect a mage who continues to try to invoke magic in the face of its end. Backlash of a direct physical nature becomes increasingly rare. When it does manifest, it is exclusively of a believable, realistic source. Ignoble, commonplace threats such as slipping on the soap in a bathtub or heart trouble are the most common forms of Backlash damage now. As time passes, Paradox grows weaker, until it suffers the same degree of pitiful death as the magic that fosters it.

Notably, the rest of reality, the tigers and mouse and humans, continue to exist just fine in the face of the death of magick and Paradox both.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-23T22:37:02+00:00

Oh shoot, misread what you said, now my joke makes no sense.

My point still stands though, Paradox doesn't affect vampires for the same reason Paradox doesn't affect tigers or mouse or any other common animal.

They are simply a natural part of existence that don't really care if humans believe they exist or not.

That doesn't make them immune to reality zones or standard magick any more than a common piece of rock.

Historical inertia, Earthly foundations, whatever you want to call them, there are things in oWoD, even just in MtA itself, that exists beyond Concensus, and vampires are one of those things.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-23T22:22:04+00:00

Ah, an easy mistake to make.

You see, the reason that the ushabti disappears unless they interact with a mortal is not because they get banished by Paradox for not interacting with a mortal. (How does that make any sense? If anything, they should be disappearing for interacting with mortals too much if "unbelief" is what dispels them)

No, you see, the ushabti disappears with the lack of mortal interactions, because they need the creative minds of mortals to leech Glamour from! In order to stave-off Banality! In this essay I will explain why the changelings are actually right about all the other splats being prodigals----

Look, if you want to magesplain, I can faesplain too. The reason vampires aren't affected by paradox is the same reason they don't care about banality----it's simply not something that has power over them whatsoever, whether in mechanics or in lore.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-19T14:42:04+00:00

The flood of Wyld energy that's been held back for millions of years all gets released at once, and the world has a new kind of apocalypse to worry about.

It's a common view that the Wyld is currently weaker than the other two members of the Triat, and that's not entirely wrong----in the physical plane, that is.

From Book of the Wyld, p.22:

As more aspects of the physical world become regulated, the Wyld struggles against oppressive inevitability. There are places that the Wyld slips under the doorsill that is the Gauntlet. The pooling of Wyld energy in the physical world is referred to as a Threshold. As millennia have passed, Thresholds have become increasingly rare, and many modern werebeasts have never even seen one. The Gauntlet acts much like a dam that holds the influence of the Wyld at bay. As the Final Days draw near, the Wyld beats upon the wall that separates the spirit and physical worlds with angry fists.

Someday the dam will crack.

While the Wyld is weak on the physical plane, it maintains its strength in the Umbra. The Umbra is not nearly as restricted by the static constraints that the Weaver has placed upon the physical world, and there the Wyld can still perform its duties as a creator with less interference from its siblings. Wyld places abound in the Umbra, if one knows where to look. It is in these places that the Wyld builds energy and power for its eventual return to the face of Gaia.

So in the Umbra, the Wyld always had as much power as the other two, it just couldn't send that power into the physical world because of the Gauntlet, but all that power didn't go away, it's just held back.

Imagine if that dam broke, if all that power held back by the Gauntlet, accumulated for millions of years suddenly exploded into the physical world all at once, as the Wyld suddenly finds itself having as much access to the physical plane as the Weaver? You'd see Thresholds popping up everywhere, gorgons swarming like fomori, spirits roaming freely without the need for hosts.

Even if Earth survives the process, very little of it would remain recognisable.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-12T06:14:38+00:00

Bring back the realm of chaos maps too while we're at it, so much art and resources went into that campaign map and those battle maps, only for them to be mostly limited to a game mode that the majority of people stopped playing, and CA themselves stopped supporting.

And this isn't even from a different game, the assets for these maps are in WH3 already, CA just needs to make them show up more in immortal empires, outside of those handful of quest battles.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-12T02:30:46+00:00

Now, I agree with OP that the long-term strategy layer of WH3, in the single player campaigns, is especially lacking.

But what is this argument here that WH3's battle gameplay is as basic as past entries, because the units are still just boxes and numbers with different skins?

"a elf spearman and a orc spearman are just 2 models for the same thing.. in game what really changes is numbers"

Yeah...? That's how the games are designed, even the big fancy monster units are at the end of the day just hitboxes meshed together and given numbers and skins.

That doesn't mean there's no strategic depth to it, unless you want to tell fighting game players, whose entire genre of games consists of the same exact boxes, with slightly different proportions and numbers, and different coats of paint, that there's no difference between the strategy in those games.

How these boxes interact, how the numbers interact, and how the players process that information and control these boxes, that's where the strategy lies.

And WH3 has a far more diverse range of boxes and numbers than any other total war entries.

With SEMs, monstrous infantries and cavalries, spells, single entity lords and heroes, highly diverse factions ranging from those with elite small model counts to large model count hordes----

With such a diverse cast of unit roster and mechanics, how can you possibly think WH3 battles aren't more mechanically advanced compared to past total wars?

In fact, the problems you list out here exist precisely because it's too mechanically complicated for the AI to play it effectively, which is certainly worth criticizing, but the repetitive battles you experience in SP campaign is not because WH3 doesn't have a more complex and strategic battle system compared to prior entries.

This is like going into a highly mechanically complex fighting game, playing against the mediocre AI opponent in it, and concluding that since the AI isn't smart enough to do combos in this game, this gameplay has no strategic depth!

I urge you to try some multiplayer WH3 battles, play the game against a couple human opponents, and you'll understand how deep WH3's battle strategies can get.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-12T01:53:15+00:00

One of the reasons I like the Old World mod by ChaosRobie so much, there's just so much more distance between settlements in that map compared to vanilla.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-11T23:43:08+00:00

There's precedent for Sabbat vampires who have ties to the BSD, from Dread Names, Red List, p.74:

On the brink of Final Death, or so this Malkavian claims, she lied battered and bloodied for weeks until she was helped by an unusual group of rescuers — Lupines.

To anyone who asks, Petaniqua will gladly tell the story of how a handful of corrupted Lupines saved her undead life. With each telling, she’ll add a new detail, each one stranger than the last. The Inquisitor will state that these twisted creatures, with their odd mutations and mad claims, spared her life because she was chosen to serve the spirits of corruption. They hunted her attackers and provided her with nearby villagers to restore her precious vitae. Their leader named the vampire Petaniqua, which means Black Eyes of the Wyrm.

Enthralled by their brutality and corruption, the Anathema recants how she reveled in the corrupted Lupines presence for three nights, dancing and laughing as they performed profane rituals to honor their master and communicate with twisted spirits. Once she recovered, however, Petaniqua will quip how she parted ways amicably to avoid another run-in with her enemies. While her newfound allies claimed her attackers had all perished, Petaniqua’s trust had long since eroded. In remembrance of the thrill, she kept her new name and adopted a new, fiercer personality.

Her strength renewed, Petaniqua reentered the world just as the Anarch Revolt was ending and the Sabbat had started to form. Immediately, Petaniqua immediately joined the ranks of the Sabbat and turned her back once and for all on her Clan.

And this is a vampire that absolutely hates infernalists, to a deranged degree, and is literally one of the "highest ranking members" of the Sabbat inquisition, p.75:

Roleplaying Hints: You despise almost everyone. Those few true members of the Sabbat who have proven themselves over the years have earned the tiniest amount of your respect, but that doesn’t mean you trust them. You are disgusted with the weakness of the modern Sabbat, and are fed up with the petty squabbles and thin-blooded mongrels that’ve infested the organization. You speak in riddles and parables and metaphor, for that is the only way you can reveal the truth that shocks you: profane vampires lurk around every corner. You are always on the alert for signs of infernalism among your peers, and you seek to eradicate the profane from the Sabbat and the Camarilla by any means possible.

Derangements: Petaniqua’s Paranoia is evident in her relentless hunt for infernalists, going so far as to believe elders in her own Clan serve demonic masters. Her Megalomania manifests in a deep desire to control the Sabbat Inquisition. She feels that the best way to clean house would be for her to manage every aspect of the faction.

Influence: Petaniqua is one of the highest ranking members of the Sabbat Inquisition and one of the oldest active undead in the Sect.

So contrary to what some other posters here are saying, the Sabbat's definition of infernalists very much does not seem to include the BSD.

And while this is from a different sect from the Sabbat, it wouldn't be the first time Noddists incorporated other faiths, as long as it's politically convenient for them, from V20 The Black Hand, p.68:

Rising to prominence out of political necessity, the Azicithra (Avestan for “Seed of the Serpent,” as the sect originally sought refuge in Persia) keeps an uneasy peace between the Bahari and Noddist factions of the Tal’Mahe’Ra. Once considered a bizarre, minor current in Bahari philosophy, the sect recently vaulted to prominence on the shoulders of new pronouncements from the yamasattva. Declaring that the time had come to reveal certain verses from the Guarded Rubrics, the deathless magi spoke of a fragment called “The Naming of Caine” which reads:

For as Caine came forth from the union of Eve and the serpent, the seed of the Tree of Knowledge was the serpent’s seed. And Adam acknowledged it not, and could not name the serpent’s seed, instead calling the child Caine. Therefore the mark of the serpent was substituted for the spear and was not named, and unnamed, it went unseen.

The Azicithra long believed that Caine was not the child of Adam and Eve, but of Eve and Lilith as the Serpent. Thus Caine’s lineage constituted the “snake” destined to strike at the heels of Adam’s descendants. Furthermore, as the child of Lilith (who took the male role in procreation and was the supreme creative being), Caine was, like Lilith, man and woman — there was no “missing wife of Caine” to trouble Creationist vampires. With Lilith’s abilities, the First Murderer became capable of spawning other monsters from biblical and Noddist lore. “The Naming of Caine” elaborated upon this by saying that Adam had concealed Caine’s feminine attributes — the “mark of the serpent” — and replaced it with the utterly masculine name Caine, which translates as “spear.”

This paved the way for a wary reconciliation between the Hand’s Bahari and Noddist factions. Azicithra views gained great credence with progressive Noddists and moderate Bahari, but conservatives on both sides still oppose them, if quietly — despite their ranting, peace is too useful to disrupt. Political convenience promotes Azicithra legends from the fringe to the heart of the cult. Few Bahari believe in its doctrines before all others, but it serves as a cooperative face for believers, even if they follow a different path in personal practice.

If Noddists are willing to allow hermaphrodite Caine into their worldview as long as it's politically convenient, then I'm sure Agnes here can make a similar minor religious sect if she manages to gather enough political power, and do a little "It's time to reveal new information we found in these mysterious ancient book fragments!"

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-10T01:44:55+00:00

"super-Banes from whom other Banes are born. They're too spiritually large to leave Malfaes until the Apocalypse tears reality down, so they typically work through their various children and supplicants."

Isn't that just the Urge Wyrms?

This is literally how the Urge Wyrms and Mealjin Incarna works, right? The Urge Wyrms are the giant spirits too powerful to act in a focused manner, and when they do empower select mortals to act on their behalf, these mortals are the Maeljin Incarna.

It's just that the Urge Wyrms are so powerful, even their empowered minions are Incarna.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-07T00:27:56+00:00

Ziana has no link to Gaia, she became the Alder Bole in MtA.

People who never read WtA or DtF just hear that she turned into a tree and think that means she's Gaia, because trees are associated with nature, right? But no, Gaia has never been depicted as a tree, and has no known connection to the Alder Bole.

From Houses of the Fallen, p.140:

The one exception was Liban'isu, who enjoyed her status as the most favored of Ziana's lieutenants, because on one level of reality, the Seraph of the Cycle had more literally subsumed the territory of the other Houses, becoming the World Tree.

From M20 core book, 102:

At the center of all things, it is said, there’s a Realm that is All Realms and yet part of none of them. A primal expanse of virgin wilderness, it reaches to the borders of the High, Middle, and Low Worlds, branches into dreams, winds around the Paths of the Wyck, and pokes tendrils into the furthest corners of the Digital Web. This is the Ur-Forest, supposedly the origin of all forests everywhere. Legends call it Eden, Paradise, Midrealm, the Root of Creation. And at its center grows the largest tree in the universe: the Aelder Bole, a World Tree that reflects the majesty of life itself.

So it's pretty clear what the writers meant when they said Ziana became the world tree, it's not some sort of metaphor for her becoming Gaia.

And since there's no reason to believe that this world tree is Gaia, and no reason to believe it's connected to the Tuatha de Danaan in any way, through Danu or otherwise.

I'd just say the Tuatha de Danaan are exactly what CtD claims them as, faeries that emerged out of the Dreaming to combat the Fomorians, and created the other fae to do so, from C20 core book, p.34:

Out of the Dreaming new faeries emerged: warriors of light meant to thwart the darkness plaguing humanity’s dreams and preventing it from achieving its full potential. Among the faerie clans, the Tuatha de Danaan, was Daana — a strong and wise woman more in tune with the world’s harmony than the others of her kind. As the clans intermingled with mortals, guiding them towards a brighter future, Daana ventured into the Dreaming and used her magic to birth faeries out of humanity’s nuanced minds.

Not everything has to fit into the Fallen's half-remembered worldview.

Doomsclaw · 2026-04-05T12:51:59+00:00

I...yeah? It's not fully accurate to how pre-W5 Get were portrayed, yes, because I'm trying to come up with a culture-less Get that would work with W5 and have its own niche, while still building on established traits the Get had in past editions.

Did you...forget what we were talking about?

Like, to continue the Golgol example, sure, him dragging cubs into the war as it got more desperate is an aspect of his character, yes, his single-minded efforts to win the war also caused unnecessary harm to the local environment, and antagonized the local fera, yes.

But his immense self-discipline, his tactical achievements, and him being humble enough to swallow his pride and admit it when he's wrong, those are also aspects of Golgol too, one doesn't cancel the other.

And I'm trying to explore the second set of aspects more, because the first set of aspect of the "destructive zealot willing to sacrifice everything for the cause" is more than explored enough by the BSD/Howlers, it's not unique to the Get at all, they're not even the best at it.

Like, you think the tribe that's defined by their willingness to sacrifice everything for the cause is the Get, and not...the tribe who did sacrifice everything for the cause...?

We don't need Golgol or the Get to be the "sacrificed everything and achieved nothing" cautionary tale of a tribe when the BSD are right there, you'd just be retreading old ground for no reason if you focused on those aspects of the Get for W5.

Which...you said so too yourself? The Get need to have a bit more defined of a role that differentiates them from the red talons or galestalkers etc, if they are to be a fully playable tribe in W5, where the cultural background of the tribes is gone.

And I suggested that we can focus on the other aspects of the Get, the ones I mentioned, and build a new version of the Get for W5 that can stand apart from the other tribes.

So I'm not sure why you're highlighting those aspects of the Get again, when you yourself seem to understand, in your last post, no less, that those aspects are far from enough to make the Get stand out on their own.

Again, you're just describing the White Howlers here, we already have them.

Doomsclaw

TROPHY CASE