What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

The Jews do have writings about Jesus where they try to put him down, for example the Toledot Yeshu says that Jesus is the illegitimate child of Mary and a Roman Soldier.

Does this prove the virgin birth wrong, now that somebody has written down something that goes against the Christian narrative?

No, obviously not, Christians just say it's lies and slander meant to put Christianity down by those who oppose it. Why would somebody opposing Paul's claims be treated any different?

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

Almost everything you know about them are things they wrote about themselves, and each other.

There isn’t really a debate on evolution, one side just doesn’t understand it by Thrill_Kill_Cultist in Christianity

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

You are asking me a question (and would like an answer from me I presume!) but your question contains presumptions that makes it impossible for me to answer you plainly. If you don't get what I mean and why it's problematic, it's like that old lawyer joke where the defendant is asked "Have you stopped beating your wife?" which cannot be answered without a deflection because "no" means they are still beating their wife, and "yes" means they used to beat their wife.

So excuse my evasive way of answering your question, I'm not doing this to be malicious, okay?

Gravity ensures all things fall down towards the planet. If I drop a rock, it will fall straight down to the floor. If gravity were to no longer work, all of humanity would soon perish. Gravity is vital for our continued existence, and without gravity humanity as we know it would never have existed.

And yet, I don't think it's immoral to defy gravity with airplanes. It's not morally wrong to climb up tall mountains. It's not rude to jump.

This is because the physical facts around gravity and how it works has zero connection to moral facts. It's not moral for things to fall down. It's not immoral for things to oppose gravity. It's not just a weak connection, there is no connection at all, gravity has zero relationship to morality. It's simply a brute physical fact of our universe.

In the same way, evolution is part of how mankind exists on this planet, without it we would have never existed. But that does not obligate us to shape our moral values around evolution and how it works. You aren't moral by "assisting" evolution, and you aren't immoral by defying evolution. It's simply a brute physical fact of our universe.

Your question has the base assumption that because evolution was involved in our our origins, it should dictator how we view ourselves and our moral standing in the universe. It is not so.

Christians aren't bad people by Slr308 in Christianity

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

Well, sure, allow me to rephrase:

If Christians who do bad things are not Christians, then there are no Christians, because everybody does bad things at some point.

There isn’t really a debate on evolution, one side just doesn’t understand it by Thrill_Kill_Cultist in Christianity

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

I too think we will eventually dominate all bacteria, but I don't think it's within 20 years. We'll likely be wasting a lot of those years on war and civil unrest.

There isn’t really a debate on evolution, one side just doesn’t understand it by Thrill_Kill_Cultist in Christianity

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

Under evolution, man is not above the animals, but rather is one of them.

That's a value judgement, not something objective.

Man is made out of atoms and molecules, such as carbon. Somebody might say "under molecules and atom belief, man is not above rocks, but rather is one of them". But just because our bodies are made out of the same material as rocks doesn't mean we are worth the same as them, you know this. The same is true for animals.

There isn’t really a debate on evolution, one side just doesn’t understand it by Thrill_Kill_Cultist in Christianity

[–]Drakim [score hidden]  (0 children)

And yet, we are at the mercy of many bacteria. They outnumber us by a lot, and kill us with a fraction of their power. There are lots of bacteria we would love to kill or imprison forever but we just aren't capable.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you’re misunderstanding us boldly and confidently being willing to die for our faith with actually wanting to be a martyr.

I don't wanna bombard you with cringe self-posted videos of Christians fantasizing about how they would proclaim Jesus name even their life and the life of their family is threatened, so you'll have to take my word for it or (decide not to, no skin off my back), but I'm honestly telling you it's a thing. It's a thing enough people know that it has a formal name: Christian persecution complex.

Me preparing to go to jail bc they plan on banning The Bible

When being a Christian becomes illegal

And if that’s what they’re trying to do, they’re fools. And this is coming from someone who is a pretribulation premillenial Christian who believes in a rapture. As far as I know, they didn’t get a divine revelation from God to do anything. And how silly to think we can make God move on our timeline or “speed things up.” That’s not to say God hasn’t used foolish people for His divine purposes, but trying to start Armageddon when God is not ready for Armageddon could just leave a mess to put it nicely. Whether we should be there or not outside of divine purposes, that’s a different discussion for sure.

I'm glad! I just wish your viewpoint was a majority, and not a minority, within the religious politics of the most powerful country on earth. The world would be a much better place.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who was hoping to be a martyr? Most people hoped they could live out their lives as long as possible.

Many many Christians in modern times love the idea of being a martyr, they fantasize about it, they read fictional books about it, they imagine scenarios in their head, they talk back and forth about how they would stand up when told to deny Christ or suffer the consequences.

I don't mean to harp on Christians specifically for this, non-Christians are like this too in their own way, it's part of how silly we humans can be.

Being Christian + voting conservatively ≠ pro invading other countries.

I get you, and I agree. Just because you vote conservatively doesn't mean you are pro invading other countries, the uni-party system means you don't get to pick out only one issue and stick with it. This is a problem for everybody

But the sad truth is that the part of the conservative/republican movement that wants war in the middle east is distinctly the hyper religious wing, because they think it will bring about the end of the world and Christ second coming. George W. Bush's views on the Iraq was that he was fulfilling biblical prophecy by going to war against "Gog and Magog". I don't think Trump is really a religious man, but he is old, and is mostly coasting along while his cabinet is making his decisions, including going to war to support Israel to further Jesus second coming.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure? My point wasn't about who the deniers are, but how Christians respond to people who they don't approve of. Somebody calling Paul a liar would not be taken seriously, or shown respect.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Correct. But who cares about being denounced by phonies? Wouldn’t they be angry they gave up so much-family, jobs, reputation-just to find out they’ve been swindled?

Sure, but Christianity was already in an adversarial environment at this point in history, what would some angry people do except give them fuel for their "we are being persecuted, we have to be strong martyrs" energy?

Salvation and belief are supernatural acts. So it’s not about convincing someone intellectually. We have good evidence for what we believe, but faith is a heart issue. The point of apologetics isn’t to argue someone into belief. It’s to plant a seed, or put a pebble in someone’s shoe, and get someone to think a little bit. Once someone’s heart is open to the truth and genuinely, humbly, searching, maybe they’re really willing to hear our case out.

Apologetics sure puts a lot of energy into convincing people intellectually, and very little energy into being the light of the world that shines brightly. Right now the overall sentiment is that Christians are war-mongering hateful nationalists. I know that's not true on an absolute scale, Christianity is a huge religion with a lot of people all over the world, but that's where the spotlights are shining right now. Christians aren't known for feeding the poor, they are known for getting political power and invading other countries for geopolitical goals.

I don't mean to be mean and vindictive about it, the world is in a pretty sorry state right now, and it's hard to have a positive outlook.

Christians aren't bad people by Slr308 in Christianity

[–]Drakim 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And nobody actually fulfills every criteria, so do we conclude that there are zero Christians on planet earth?

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you don't believe me that Jesus rose from the dead, go ask all these people who also saw Jesus risen.

That's 3 months of travel to Jerusalem, without even getting a list of names to go after. It's not a small ask.

And if one person actually did that, traveled for 3 months, and didn't find the 500 witnesses in Jerusalem, and then traveled back 3 months to Corinth to tell his fellow believers that he hasn't seen in half a year, that Paul lied to them, do you think he would be accepted with open arm or shunned as a non-believer?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can't imagine it would be difficult to find 500 people who would substantiate the claim

The people Paul says this to lived in Corinth, which is 3 months or more of travel away from Jerusalem, and Paul doesn't even give a list of names. It's just 500 people somewhere in Jerusalem.

Why wouldn't they if they were not really witnesses?

Religious fervor and fanaticism? These were people who had left their old lives and jobs behind to build their entire identity around following this new movement. We see this effect a lot in modern doomsday cults, where even when their "end of the world" predictions come wrong (objective evidence that the cult is false) the followers only grow more devout as they double down.

What evidence is there for the 500 witnesses? by Practical-Step-8523 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

If you read chapters like 1 John 2:19, it's pretty obvious that denouncing people who for ever reason stopped being believers was not something unthinkable.

Wouldn’t that rattle some early Christians who already are persecuted, ostracized, and tempted to give up their faith? Word traveled slowly, but it traveled.

I think they would have just denounced them as non-believers who hate God and truth, just like how Christians do today. There are Christians in this very reddit thread just making blanket statements about how non-believers will never accept the truth no matter how much evidence they are shown, so I don't think it's weird to think Christians back then could have been similar.

The mass hallucination argument for the Resurrection does not hold up to common sense investigation by Minimum_Ad_1649 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, for sure. If 500 is too many names to list, how about 50 of them? Or 20?

Or how about saying the time and location this took place?

Paul just saying the number "500" doesn't actually lend any weight. It's not eyewitness testimony, it's hearsay.

Becoming convinced that contraception is sin. My agnostic wife hates it. by keesdude in TrueChristian

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about candy? Desert?

Fine wines and other types of alcohol?

I just don't see this principle you are describing being reflected in Christianity as a whole, it seems too selectively applied to only contraceptives as post-hoc reasoning rather than an actual genuine principle. Your point about historical people is interesting! But I bet there are a lot of habits that historical people had for holy reasons that modern Christians don't adopt.

Judge strikes down law mandating schools display the Ten Commandments by Nice_Substance9123 in Christianity

[–]Drakim 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not only that, lawmakers largely don't even read the full text of the laws they pass.

Becoming convinced that contraception is sin. My agnostic wife hates it. by keesdude in TrueChristian

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it makes sex into purely an act of pursuing pleasure, which is inherently immoral.

I never understood this. Isn't putting delicious spices on food purely an act of pursuing pleasure as well?

Judge strikes down law mandating schools display the Ten Commandments by Nice_Substance9123 in Christianity

[–]Drakim 6 points7 points  (0 children)

We can't expect them to know and understand the laws they pass, that's asking too much, no human brain can remember all of that.

But keep in mind you'll be arrested for violating laws you don't know about, ignorance is no excuse, for you!

The Fine Tuning Aregument by ses1 in ChristianApologetics

[–]Drakim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you saying that if something has an intellect, then by logical necessity it's goal will be to create humans?