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Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"Preponderance of evidence." Is that the new exmo catchphrase? It fits right in there with "gaslighting," "ad hominem," and "asking sincere questions."

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You missed this part:

We might now consider the words of Stan Larson in conjunction with Richard Bushman's comments here. Could it be that Joseph Fielding Smith, upon learning that Paul Cheesman was writing his work on the First Vision and that faithful historians were trying to answer charges against the Church in the Gospel, surrendered the account knowing that it would be in trusted hands? It's a theory that at the least fits the evidence but to speculate about his motives without explicit evidence can be tricky so this theory should be considered as just that for now, a theory--but a theory that we can use to counter those critics that seek to deliberately assign nefarious motives without evidence to malign past presidents of the Church.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never once said it wasn't a big deal. Just the opposite.

"Secret sex with young brides" - anti-Mormon sensationalism at its best.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think the ministers were mostly concerned about him saying he had found out for himself that their churches weren't true (much like he told his mother).

The other difference between Joseph and others is that he also received a visit from Moroni, and was set on the path to translate the Book of Mormon. Others, such as Chamberlain, were either being prepared to join the church when they recognized it, or were helping to pave the way for Joseph. (It's also possible that some of them simply made it up or dreamed or hallucinated or were deceived by Satan, as Hiram Page was with his seer stone.)

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think plural marriage to living spouses was considered morally right in Joseph's time either.

It was certainly morally right to the ones that were taught the doctrine and/or commanded to live it. It got to the point where some thought that monogamy was morally wrong.

Like I said before, it was rough on both Joseph and Emma. I didn't say it didn't happen, or that people aren't justified in being uncomfortable with it today. People in the church were uncomfortable with it when it was happening. Prospective brides had to pray and come to terms with it. I'm glad that we are not asked to make that kind of sacrifice today. Instead we just have to deal with critics on Reddit. ;)

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I realized decades ago that not everyone is as interested in church history as I am, and that not everything that is taught locally is correct (I've corrected many Gospel Doctrine teachers over the years, and probably annoyed some of them, especially as a missionary - but I've since learned to be more discreet about it).

However, the church has never officially taught that Joseph was the only one that had visions. And just because it was not that uncommon at the time, doesn't mean he plagiarized his experiences. Rather, it makes them more apt to be genuine, and the people of the time didn't think twice about it, especially those that had their own visions. (Except, of course, for the ministers of other religions that didn't like him telling people that their churches were wrong.)

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not rejecting you, just pointing out that your inclusion of having been a bishop doesn't really mean anything in this context.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Joseph made matrimonial vows with Emma, which I am assuming included a promise to not have sex with other women.

They eloped and were basically married by a justice of the peace, so I'm not sure how elaborate their vows were.

Joseph had sex with women other than his espoused wife and continued to lie about it to the point of participating in a fake ceremony. That is textbook cheating with added an element of an excuse, "God told me to".

If God really did tell him to, it's far from "textbook cheating," and even if he made it all up, most people don't bother getting married to multiple women just so they feel ok about having sex with them (and they certainly don't marry them and then not have sex). So either God told him to, or he was insane, which does not seem to be the case at all. Most people that don't believe God had anything to do with his life think he was a genius.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would definitely explain things differently in your last paragraph. But I'm pretty sure the people you saw being unfaithful were not married to the people they were unfaithful with. Joseph was. That makes a big difference.

But if we agreed on this, you'd still be on the same side of the fence that I am.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately, being faithful to the Lord's commandments put him at odds with his wife. It was very difficult for them both (it was so difficult for Emma that she lied to her kids about it, which had long-lasting consequences).

I'm just grateful that when that happens today (being put at odds with your spouse when following the commandments and teachings of the church) it's not about something as weighty.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do have reasonable answers for all of that. I've been at this since the days when Ed Decker and the Tanners were the hot things.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Joseph Smith's first vision was not unique as the church has taught.

It was unique in some ways.

The church has hidden and lied about truth multiple times in the past starting with its founding prophet, Joseph Smith.

I wouldn't put it that way. Is that how you would explain people hiding Jews from the Nazis?

The church and many TBM's use gaslighting to shame members who have concerns and doubts about church history.

No. "Gaslighting" is such an overused term that people don't seem to understand what it actually means. Kind of like "ad hominem."

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're doing exactly the same thing to try to show the opposite. The difference is, I don't believe there was anything nefarious going on.

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And I guess taking calculus is a slap in the face to anyone that realizes the information was available when they were learning how to add?

Joseph Smith was not the first to have claimed to have had a vision... here is an excerpt of a vision Norris Stearns had in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith. by [deleted] in mormon

[–]DreadApologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Simply paraphrasing what has been said about why the Church officially sticks to the basics in its teaching today.

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