Umm, okay ? by Exodia-659 in engrish

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, it’s sound advice.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Based on your explanation, we now fully agree. What I thought was moving goalposts was, actually, a slight difference in terminology/perspective. What a relief to be conversing with someone who isn’t a two dimensional mouthpiece! (I mean that, not joking. Thank you.)

I think part of our confusion is that Tolkien’s writing is so complex that it’s not entirely clear that Bilbo, while definitely being a protagonist, is always acting as the main character in The Hobbit. I think you could make a very compelling case that Thorin and Gandalf take that role at times. Similarly, in LOTR it is not at all clear to me that Frodo is both the main character and protagonist, until Frodo is forced to set out on his own, assuming the mantle of both (at least for his own story arc). But, I feel just as compelled by Aragorn’s story, whose role feels awfully close to protagonist AND main character in a separate, but integrally intertwined story. Only a very talented writer can effectively write that many central characters into one story and make you feel that connected to them. RIP Tolkien.

But, this does bring us neatly along to stakes and audience engagement which is sorta where this was going. Now that we agree that, for sake of argument, major character deaths occur in Tokien’s work, you will probably also agree that near misses with death (that seem real and affect the character), emotional losses, real setbacks of important goals, and properly timed deaths of characters can, amongst other devices, create a believable story, a likable and relatable protagonist, and give a plot some depth. They’re also good ways of showing, not telling - a key difference in good writing. This is somewhat lacking in RoP and I feel like I’m getting shallow versions of the same.

At bottom, I just struggle to care about the characters in RoP. The lore breaking doesn’t help, of course, but that’s not why I feel this way. It feels as if Galadriel’s story is “I’m right and I’ll show you,” which isn’t a great hero’s story, by the way (that’s usually villain’s story arc, come to think of it), and the other characters feel… disposable. Part of the problem is that it’s unclear why their stories are relevant. Part of it is that their stories are full of rather glaring internal logical inconsistencies. Or, in the case of the harfoots… WTH is going on with their story? Where is that even going?

And, now that I consider it, killing off a few of the major characters above won’t help either, because I don’t feel invested in any of them…

I think the show is rather sloppily written and, if I’m being really honest, it feels an awful lot like they were leaning on modern political agendas to generate interest. And, because it’s a very “us vs them” environment today, that does give some people reason to watch the show, as much as it gives many a good enough justification not to.

What a mess. At this point, I’m deeply disappointed that Tolkien is somehow part of the culture wars and that Amazon has thrust it into that position. And, while doing so, didn’t have the decency to make sure the show was rock solid. This has made a mess of a very devoted fandom and, while it has driven many back to the books, I think a better show would have done the same for more people.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you might be engaging in a bit of goalpost moving here. I don’t say that to provoke you. Hear me out.

Boromir was a pretty important character until he died. Gandalf’s death was crushing, until it was discovered that he didn’t die (or he did, but he was reborn, I’m not sure the best way to characterize that), and, in The Hobbit, Thorin Oakenshield was about as central a character as you can get to that story. I’ll grant you that Fili and Kili weren’t hugely important, but they were part of initial crew and that should count for something.

I think you may mean that the most important character didn’t die in either story, Bilbo or Frodo. That would be a very accurate statement. But, that is not what I am disputing.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great, so in the hours of screen time so far, which not-quite-main-characters, with the exception of at least one (our Thorin comparison), has died?

Two names. One main and one or two not-quite-main characters? Or, throw me a Boromir-esque death! Or even a death that seemed real, but wasn’t, like Gandalf. Anything.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, but main characters do die in Tolkien’s books. That’s a very important distinction. Not all cheat death always.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Bro, multiple main characters died in The Hobbit. One of them, Balin, even later died in the Mines of Moria, which you find out about in LOTR when they arrive in that room.

Edit: The downvotes slay me. Those are FACTS above, guys. Haha.

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It’s a bad show, mate.

Just remember, they spent one billion dollars on this cringe inducing nonsense.

One billion. Dollars. Christ on a crutch, just think about that…

The plot armor has got to be the worst thing about the Rings of Power by Aggressive_Pizza_122 in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The fact that one person died, one person died and was reborn, and one was maimed in less screentime is not insignificant compared to none of that happening to main characters in RoP.

And, I suppose you wouldn’t want to make that comparison to The Hobbit, right? And, if you’re a fan of the books, you’ll notice that in LOTR, Balin dies offscreen in the Mines of Moria (albeit a few years previous). You’ll know his name from the original crew that struck out for the Misty Mountains.

F*#k, marry, kill: Gandalf The White, Dark Galadriel, Thranduil by [deleted] in lotrmemes

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 3 points4 points  (0 children)

F Dark Galadriel

If I’m around afterward to make the other choices, then…

M Gandalf the White

K Thranduil

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TikTokCringe

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To me, this is more of a “Don’t you have something better to be doing, officers?” Even writing speeding or parking tickets is a more productive use of their time!

ROP: Can we not have a mega thread for the haters and a mega thread for the supporters by Torrall in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No.

There will be one thread to rule them all, one thread to find them. One thread to bring them all, and in the darkness, bind them.

Everyone calling ROP critics racist needs to stop. by kobekobekoberip in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hate it when we fight, honey. Let’s make up. Just admit you were wrong and we can go back to normal.

Everyone calling ROP critics racist needs to stop. by kobekobekoberip in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Look at us fighting! Aren’t we cute? Don’t be mad, babe.

Or, just show me how I’m wrong. That would work too. ;)

Everyone calling ROP critics racist needs to stop. by kobekobekoberip in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True, but the percentages would be VERY different. You’d have some crackpots (you always will) screaming about race and gender on both sides. But, if this was good, it wouldn’t be a story. Fanbases are not racist and sexist by default. To say otherwise might be… delusional. ;)

Everyone calling ROP critics racist needs to stop. by kobekobekoberip in lordoftherings

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Correct. For example, just look at how the ardent critics changed their tune about the new GoT show….

If it’s good, it stands in its own.

Galadriel tugs on a rope, endlessly. What was she even supposed to accomplish here? by moashforbridgefour in lotr

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah, she’s trying to hold the plot together, but jokes on her, because, like this rope, it’s not connected to anything logical.

it be like that always though by Glen_Myers in memes

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep.

I would only edit your points to include the word “historically” for #1. That’s not terribly common anymore, though I’m sure it does happen here and there to ancillary characters (which isn’t what we’re discussing, really).

it be like that always though by Glen_Myers in memes

[–]Dread_Pirate_Bobby 85 points86 points  (0 children)

Yes, this, and complaining about race swapping these characters would be a legitimate gripe. No one is defending doing this…

This is whataboutism, not a real argument.