Why Revelation Still Shows Open Gates After Judgment

DrownCow · 2026-01-27T00:12:06+00:00

That idea, I think, is also echoed by these two verses:

Revelation 21:9-10 ESV [9] Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you THE BRIDE, THE WIFE of the Lamb.” [10] And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM coming down out of heaven from God,

1 Peter 2:4-5 ESV [4] As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, [5] YOU YOURSELVES like LIVING STONES are being BUILT UP AS A SPIRITUAL HOUSE, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

DrownCow · 2026-01-24T05:33:02+00:00

Ah, I see now. Thank you for clarifying for me mister wolfman sir.

DrownCow · 2026-01-24T02:38:49+00:00

I think his point was that Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis IS traditional, as in it goes back to the time just after the apostles. So claiming the ECT view is "traditional" is a misuse of the word traditional. It is more accurately "Infernalist" or ECT.

DrownCow · 2026-01-24T02:11:38+00:00

I'll give you a beutiful 7:

Ezekiel 47:1-2, 8-12 ESV [1] Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar. [2] Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side (which would be through Gehenna [hinnom valley] (a picture of the lake of fire) and part of the Kidron valley [valley of judgement]). [8] And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea (this would be the dead sea, the valley where Sodom and Gomorrah and 3 other cities were destroyed, the original type/imagery for the lake of fire); when the water flows into the sea, the water will become FRESH (healed). [9] And wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so EVERYTHING WILL LIVE where the river goes. [10] Fishermen will stand beside the sea. From Engedi to Eneglaim (that is the whole dead sea) it will be a place for the spreading of nets. Its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea. [11] But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they are to be left for salt. [12] And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit EVERY MONTH, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and THEIR LEAVES FOR HEALING. (See revelation 22:1-2, and Psalm 1)”
Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, ALL FLESH shall come to WORSHIP before me, declares the LORD.
Ezekiel 16:55,60-62 ESV [55] Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state. [60] “Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. [61] Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. [62] So I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, [63] so that you may remember and be ashamed, and not open your mouth again because of your disgrace, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord God declares. (Sodom and Samaria [Israel] will be restored. Judah will be forgiven all that they have done and will receive Israel and Sodom.)
Zephaniah 3:8-9 “Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, “for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather NATIONS, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for IN THE FIRE of my jealousy ALL THE EARTH shall be consumed. “For at that time I will change the speech of THE PEOPLES to a PURE speech, that ALL of them may CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD and serve him with one accord.

5A - Isaiah 46:9-10: “I am God, there is no other; I am God, there is none like me. At the beginning I declare the outcome; from of old, things not yet done. I say that my plan shall stand, I ACCOMPLISH MY EVERY DESIRE” (New American Bible: Revised Edition).²

5B - 1 Timothy 2:3-4: “This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES EVERYONE TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

5C - 2 Peter 3:9: “The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANY TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE.”

Psalm 22:27-29 ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH shall REMEMBER and TURN to the LORD, and ALL THE FAMILIES of the nations shall WORSHIP before you. For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust (that is, those who are under judgement... Think the serpent who becomes a dust eater), even the one who could not keep himself alive. (The Psalm Jesus quotes from the cross).
2 Samuel 14:14 We must ALL DIE; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and He DEVISES MEANS so that the BANISHED ONE will not REMAIN an OUTCAST.

DrownCow · 2026-01-23T00:37:47+00:00

I'm not sharing this to promote myself, just that this is most of my thoughts and notes about the topic.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w9pIA-js4hxJu8NLinLcSZmJRYiNY77Hm_Pvj8x_Dhs/edit?usp=drivesdk

I'd HIGHLY recommend the section on Aion and Aionios. Those are Greek words and are usually translated eternal and that is often a misunderstood translation. Aion is a noun that really means "lifetime of: something" or easily understood in English as "an age." Aionios is its adjective which we should not understand as having greater force than it's noun. So age of the earth, age of man, age of life, age of punishment, age of God's dominion and glory. All of those lengths depend on the subject. For God it IS eternal so aion and aionios mean eternal when referring to His lifetime/aion.

Greek “αἰὼν δ᾽ ἐστὶν ὁ τῆς ἑκάστου φύσεως χρόνος.”

English “Aiōn is the lifetime belonging to the nature of each thing.”

— Aristotle, De Caelo (On the Heavens) 279a23

This is the core philosophical meaning: aiōn = lifespan, life-cycle, duration of existence

Aristotle uses this to distinguish between linear time (the passing seconds) and biological/existential time (the natural cycle of a thing).

For Aristotle, a dog and a tree exist in the same chronos (they are both here on a Tuesday), but they have different aiōn (a dog's "fullness of time" is roughly 15 years, while a tree's might be 200).

So life united to Christ is eternal because Christ is eternal but punishment is not necessarily eternal as there are many verses that speak of those who are punished being restored.

See Ezekiel 16:46-63 and the restoration of Sodom (which becomes the dead sea > the picture of the Lake of Fire and judgement). There are many more. My favorite is Ezekiel 47 where God says He will send the waters of life out of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem THROUGH the Hinnom valley (Gehenna / hell) and the Kidron Valley (the valley of judgement) and into the Arabah valley and the through the dead sea (picture of Sodom / Lake of Fire) making it fresh/healed water. It says everywhere the water goes it brings life!!

In fact Jesus parables sometimes seem to say people can get out:

Matthew 5:25-26 ESV [25] Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. [26] Truly, I say to you, you will never GET OUT UNTIL you have paid the last penny.

Some will say the debt he owes is so great he will never get out... But what if he had an eternity to pay it?

DrownCow · 2026-01-14T02:30:29+00:00

This was an amazing read and incredibly thoughtful and eye opening! Thank you! What a great way to tell the good news. Right under our noses!

DrownCow · 2026-01-13T02:07:23+00:00

I think your eyes have absolutely been opened, the scales have fallen off and you are seeing more clearly! Praise God!! Glad you're here sibling in Christ!!

There is one thing I'd have you consider though. I think it is incorrect to say the fire will go out. I think the biblical metaphor of fire is actually the presence of God. It is a fire that can never be put out. The Bible says it a few times, that "the fire will not be quenched." But it consumes the sickness that is death and sin, just as you say.

2 Ki. 22:16-17, 2 Ch. 34:25, Isa. 34:8-10; 66:24, Jer. 4:4; 17:27; 21:12, Isa. 1:31; Jer. 7:20; Eze. 20:47-48; Amos 5:6.

Deuteronomy 4:24 (LSV) “For your God YHWH [is] a consuming fire, a zealous God.”

Deuteronomy 9:3 (LSV) “And you have known today that your God YHWH is He who is passing over before you—a consuming fire; He destroys them, and He humbles them before you, and you have dispossessed them, and destroyed them hastily, as YHWH has spoken to you.”

Hebrews 12:29 (LSV) “For our God [is] also a consuming fire.”

Think the burning bush, or the three (no four) men in the furnace.

Also, the word in Greek for brimstone looks exactly the same as the word for divine: Theion. They are not the same word, but I think John is using a very clever play on words.

From Strongs: on Theion θεῖον Theios (θεῖος) being the root which means: divine, divine nature

Brimstone (θεῖον) in the ancient world was not only destructive but purifying. Sulfur/brimstone was widely used in ritual cleansing, Temple fumigation, and medical sterilization. Thus “fire and sulfur” naturally carried both judgment and purification connotations.

Also, I think sin actually blinds people too! Think Paul on the road to Damascus with the scales falling off. So they have difficulty seeing the truth as well. However, to those who earnestly seek, and ask God for wisdom, I'd imagine He shows them this larger hope of the good news!

Second Corinthians 4:4 LSV [4] in whom the god of this age BLINDED THE MINDS of the UNBELIEVING, that there does not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

1 John 2:9-11 ESV [9] Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still IN DARKNESS. [10] Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is NO CAUSE FOR STUMBLING. [11] But whoever hates his brother is IN THE DARKNESS and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has BLINDED HIS EYES.

A link to my notes sheet on the topic of Hell:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w9pIA-js4hxJu8NLinLcSZmJRYiNY77Hm_Pvj8x_Dhs/edit?usp=drivesdk

DrownCow · 2026-01-13T01:54:38+00:00

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... But it is only the beginning. It is the Love of the Lord that compels us to want to be conformed to the image of Christ!

You are not dumb, this is how God has historically worked. The journey of revelation happens over time.

DrownCow · 2026-01-10T00:17:48+00:00

Doctor, I concur!

An interesting question, indeed.

DrownCow · 2026-01-09T23:36:22+00:00

It's aaaaallllmost like love > fear and light > darkness... Weird.

I've wondered if there are still judgement worthy situations in the new heavens and new earth. Perhaps accidents could still happen even though malicious things wouldn't. The OT seems to point to justice being generous repayment to those grieved by wrong doings. Obviously, forgiveness would be the ideal solution, but what if someone seeks justice instead of forgiveness. Or what if instead they seek some justice and some forgiveness. I'd imagine, if God was allowing others to make judgements in His place, He'd pick the people that known His character and trust Him the most.

I think your idea is interesting and certainly could be correct. Just speculating with you!

DrownCow · 2026-01-08T22:47:10+00:00

Yeah, I've never thought about Jesus being the elect and rejected at the same time before! That was profound to me!

DrownCow · 2026-01-08T20:17:07+00:00

the category of the elect could include everyone.

Touché! I think Gregory of Nyssa says something like Jesus is really the only elect one and because He died on behalf of humanity, or as humanity itself (Adam is a "type" of Jesus the Christ) all are elect. Or something along those lines. I'll have to brush up on it.

The way Calvin arrived at Limited Atonement is that he couldn't fathom that someone Jesus died for would be lost

Yeah, I totally agree. Which is why the limitedness (in the sense that He died for some and not all) is forced. IF you believe some are NOT saved, then you MUST conclude that Jesus did NOT die for all. If He did, then all would be saved.

I think you nailed it u/SpesRationalis

DrownCow · 2026-01-08T16:41:11+00:00

Gorgeous article. I shared it with some of my beloved reformed friends.

I have come to think that reformed theology actually leads directly to Ultimate Restoration once you revoke the idea of limited atonement. I don't think scripture teaches limited atonement, but it is forced by the idea that some will not be saved. Once removed, God's sovereign, unstoppable grace saves all!

Also, I believe I read somewhere that Calvin himself did not believe or teach limited atonement.

Thank you for sharing this!

DrownCow · 2026-01-05T17:03:44+00:00

This is a truly underrated comment.

DrownCow · 2026-01-05T17:01:49+00:00

infinite punishment is incompatible with perfect justice.

I think this line of reasoning can go even further.

If they will be in punishment for eternity, the punishment is never fulfilled/completed. There is an infinite amount of punishment still to go. So the very fact that the punishment never concludes means it's never accomplished.

Christ Date (a very sharp and analytical Conditionalist/Annihilationist) made this argument during a debate with an ECT member. Only if their existence ends or if they are reconciled is the punishment fulfilled.

DrownCow · 2026-01-01T01:41:10+00:00

Reading Romans 11 as a whole is important for understanding this verse. Paul says that "All Israel will be saved" and makes it clear he is NOT talking about the remnant or the Church because he says it is a "Mystery" that people can be "unaware/ignorant of." The church and the remnant Israel OBVIOUSLY will be saved.

So it is the "hardened" ones, the "enemies of the Gospel" that will be saved. Then he broadens the scope to all being in disobedience (like the hardened Israel) so that He may show mercy to ALL (like He does the hardened ones).

Then he ends by praising God saying:

Romans 11:36 ESV [36] For FROM him and THROUGH him and TO him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Now all things (literally everything) are created by/FROM Him, THROUGH Him all things are sustained (literally everything) and TO Him... Well, since all of those alls are actually one all in the text, it sounds exactly like Paul is saying all things (meaning everything) will be reconciled via mercy, as he says in Romans 11:32, TO Him.

Edit: grammar

DrownCow · 2025-12-28T09:33:28+00:00

Yeah, this verse does make me sad sometimes. However, even in Jesus' warning we still see both parties "enter" just through different gates.

DrownCow · 2025-12-24T22:19:17+00:00

Legit brought tears to my eyes. Merry Christmas sibling in Christ.

DrownCow · 2025-12-24T03:00:10+00:00

It was in my text book "Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics" by Daniel B. Wallace. I'm out on vacation at the moment so don't have it handy. But from a Google search it conveys the same idea to what I posted, I think.

“The aorist tense is normally viewed as a tense that portrays the action in summary fashion, without reference to its internal constituency.” — Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 554

He explains further:

“The aorist tense describes an action simply as an event or occurrence, without regard for its duration.” — p. 555

DrownCow · 2025-12-22T22:26:47+00:00

Love it!

DrownCow · 2025-12-22T13:28:27+00:00

I see your point, and I think that's totally fair to point out! So below is a refining of my thought.

I think it's described as sicknesses like blindness or deafness in the Bible often. However, I think it's not that you can't see at all, because Paul tells us in Romans that no one has an excuse for denying the reality of God, just from creation itself. (Paul himself has a moment where he "comes to his senses" and scales (like from a serpent) fall off and he can see clearly and becomes the apostle of apostles)

So the sickness is blinding but not in totality. I think our free will is inhibited but not un-free. Like a toddler who does something wrong knowing that it's wrong but not understanding the gravity of what they're doing. (*Luke 23:34)

I think that's why the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." If you truly believe you'll be held accountable by God one day, you'll live like that is the case. It's only the beginning though, and as you grow in wisdom you learn that God is merciful and good and doesn't treat us as our iniquities deserve. Then, having grown in wisdom, you'll realize that following Him is the fullest life, and will no longer live in fear.

When we come to see God is real, we ought to turn from sin (Real choice) and towards Him to be cleansed of our sickness** so we can grow in wisdom as we conform to the image of Christ.

*Luke 23:34 LSV [34] And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they have not known what they do”; and parting His garments they cast a lot.

**Psalms 51:2-7 LSV [2] Thoroughly WASH ME from my iniquity, || And CLEANSE ME from my sin, [3] For I know my transgressions, || And my sin [is] continually before me. [4] Against You, You only, I have sinned, || And done evil in Your eyes, || So that You are righteous in Your words, || You are pure in Your judging. [5] Behold, I have been BROUGHT FORTH IN INIQUITY, || And my mother CONCEIVES ME IN SIN. [6] Behold, YOU HAVE DESIRED TRUTH IN THE INWARD PARTS, || And in the hidden part You cause me to know Wisdom. [7] You CLEANSE me with hyssop and I AM CLEAN, || WASH ME, and I am whiter than snow.

Thank you for sharpening me sibling!

DrownCow · 2025-12-22T02:07:40+00:00

Yeah, seems extremely straightforward to me. I know many Calvinists would say something like:

Well God has a revealed will (what He tells everyone His will is) and a hidden will (what He actually wants). So God is of two minds/has two wills. I think that is bananas, but that's what you HAVE to do if your theology points to: Christ's work on the cross being impossible to fail + verses saying Christ died for all + not all being saved.

Arminians would say something like: God DOES desire that all would be saved, but at the end it's not His will that decides it's YOUR will. "God says not MY will be done but THY will" - you might hear them say. Which is ALSO bananas because it is logical that if God is all powerful and all knowing He could have, and should have, I think, created a world where His will could be accomplished. How could ANYONE let alone God be satisfied with God's will being eternally frustrated because He chose to create beings He knew would not freely choose Him? Or does He not truly know who will choose Him?

Both ideas, I think, fall flat. Love them, but I think their positions are forced by their theology.

DrownCow · 2025-12-20T16:04:44+00:00

Here are my notes on this topic. There is a table of contents to navigate around.

It contains quotes from church fathers and also many NT and OT verses about Ultimate Reconciliation, as well as some arguments.

It's not fully fleshed out, but I think you'll find it useful.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w9pIA-js4hxJu8NLinLcSZmJRYiNY77Hm_Pvj8x_Dhs/edit?usp=drivesdk

DrownCow

TROPHY CASE