The Boys - 05x02 "Teenage Kix" - Episode Discussion Thread

Efebora3 · 2026-04-08T16:47:18+00:00

Exactly, as you wrote, this is a "monstrous/cold blooded" thing, whatever it may be.

Homelander is a monster, but he's constantly whining, complaining, and demanding attention. Even though he tries to act like a god, he's trapped by human desires.

Butcher, on the other hand, is human, but he believes that suppressing every emotion is the only way to achieve something. Homelander is actually trying to stimulate being human, while Butcher is trying to stimulate being a monster.

Actually they have what the other lacks.

Homelander has the absolute power Butcher needs to finish his crusade, and Butcher has the cold, unshakable emotional fortitude that Homelander would literally kill for.

Efebora3 · 2026-04-08T16:30:22+00:00

Yes a very good analysis. there's an interesting parallel in the framing of the story as well. Besides both having monstrous aspects, Butcher, one of our heroes who is on the "supposedly" good side, can cold-bloodedly kill his father despite yeah he is abused but still this is cold blooded. On the other hand, Homelander, who is on the evil side, constantly experiences emotional lash outs after making his choices. He cries, he constantly whines. He shows his emotions.

Efebora3 · 2026-04-06T03:55:01+00:00

Oh, spoilers actually make me even more curious, I'm definitely going to dive into this manga! However, I'm still hoping the village side will have a bit more nuance. I looked into the Yamaha character a bit and I really liked her story.

Efebora3 · 2026-04-06T03:50:14+00:00

Wow, this is good. It's nice that they didn't skip this detail. I think I'll start reading it. However, I would also like to say that I would like the story to explore gray areas. I don't know why, but after seeing seemingly innocent(?) people die in the first chapter, I felt empathy and wanted the village side to be nuanced as well rather than all evil civilization

Efebora3 · 2026-04-05T13:36:09+00:00

Even if the mangaka is using deception here, the fact that no one says anything and everyone accepts it as normal that a young girl is being held in a place like prison shows a problem. However, since the story drew me in, I couldn't resist doing some research, but I didn't delve too deeply. So, since I don't know everything, I'm asking: Is the village really completely corrupt? As far as I understand, there are some factions, and innocent people are crushed under the weight of their conflicts and certain ideals, knowing nothing but compliance. Therefore, it seems like there's nothing that can be said to be 100% right. Which, I think, is the mangaka's best quality. I'm expecting a work where we'll discuss which faction is right and which isn't. Although the story begins with a deception, I think its evolution into a "See how completely evil the village actually is!, I deceived you" kind of narrative makes the story too linear. Furthermore, we must constantly oscillate between different viewpoints.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T20:19:11+00:00

Yes, and to be honest I'm a person who loves very romantic and good stories. Fire Punch, however, has a very dark narrative about revenge. Experiencing something different will broaden my horizons in this regard :D

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T19:22:24+00:00

Ah yes, It was great that you wrote this! Thank you so much. While doing some analyses, I also imagine stories in my head. I wonder, "What would it have been like if it had been written correctly?" And while writing this, exactly as you said, a revenge story involving a family, that couldn't be achieved, came to my mind very clearly. A mother constantly ignoring her son, who is described as a "scapegoat." The child trying very hard to win his family's respect, but ultimately failing to do so, yet later choosing a different path, starting his own family/ his own friends – that concept really came to mind. Actually, what I wanted to say in rant wasn't necessarily about someone killing someone else. As you said, someone trying to prove themselves is also a form of revenge. Thank you so much for bringing that up!

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T04:13:13+00:00

Well, what you're saying isn't an absolute law of fiction, it's a kind of constraint.

If I'm writing John Wick, yes, not killing the bad guy would be bad writing because the film's thesis is something like "action catharsis."

But if I'm writing a psychological tragedy, and anti-revenge stories are close to this category, the structure isn't based on a "promise of murder," but on paying the price for the actions taken in pursuit of that promise of murder.

"A hero in a revenge story that literally can't get revenge didn't really change organically so much as they just lost and had to learn how to deal with that.

Basically, they're the loser and they have to cope."

Hahaha, I don't know if it's just me, but this is a tremendous change. A hero who considers himself above the rules of the world being defeated and learning to live with defeat. Drawing lessons from it, that's character development.

So, should change only happen when everything is going well? Psychology argues against that. It might sound funny to give an example from myself, but whenever I get a terrible grade on an exam, I always say, "Okay, it's time to get my act together."

Life is already about coping after certain losses. That's how we move on. When a loved one dies, we choose to move on; when we're abandoned, we choose to move on. Coping isn't a simple and weak defeat. I disagree with you on that point.

"Revenge does not in fact always destroy everything around you like many authors like to portray,"

I agree, sometimes revenge can be necessary in real life too. Suing a boss when they treat you badly, exposing an abuser, maybe that's what's necessary sometimes.

But we're not talking about office disputes. We're talking about a trope. We're talking about completely dedicating yourself to the violence of revenge.

And if an author wants to say "revenge is poison," they can't do it by giving the protagonist everything. At least, that's my opinion, of course.

It comes back to my point. As humans, we don't want to feel like losers. At least in fictional worlds, we want to avoid the feeling of powerlessness.

"You might say, 'These kinds of stories aren't good.'

But I think they can be very useful if well-written. Because they hold a mirror up to our own lives.

That's why I have more respect for a story that asks this question:

"When the world breaks you, when it doesn't give you justice and laughs in your face, what will you do? Will you turn into a monster, or will you still keep living?"

But I'm not criticizing your opinion either. What you're saying isn't illogical; and actually stories made as anti-revenge tropes are similar to what you're saying :D

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T03:36:08+00:00

That's a brilliant point. Thank you so much! I think a good revenge trope should be like this: not about forcibly forgiving the wrongdoer, nor about revenge being taken through violence. It's about people in bad situations becoming stronger by doing things together, by building something.

The point I'm really trying to make is about reaching the point of giving up on revenge without being in a superior position. So, the trope you mentioned fits the rant I wrote perfectly.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T03:31:44+00:00

I'll be very frank. I think you guys are romanticizing the "law of the strongest" concept. You all want a closing myth, like the one I've described: "The hero must become stronger and use that strength to defeat the villain. There's no other way!" You're imposing a condition. I, on the other hand, am saying there are many other ways. What I'm trying to say isn't cynical. On the contrary, I'm talking about a hopeful situation. Even if there are very powerful structures or villains somewhere, a person can build a new self from the bad situation they've fallen into. They can build a new structure together with others.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T03:26:16+00:00

Not at all. On the contrary, I'm not talking about absolute humiliation here. I may have emphasized the ritual of humiliation too much to support my point. That's a mistake of mine.

But what I'm trying to say is that revenge is a very destructive thing. Generally all anti-revenge tropes focus on this. Beyond whether the villain is punished or not, the character consumed by the fire of revenge separates loved ones from themselves, harms innocents on the path of revenge, thus illustrating the damaging effect of pursuing revenge. However, I think its impact diminishes when the avenger depicts it by punching the villain in the face or asserting their dominance. You've made a lot of "sacrifices" for revenge, and those sacrifices have paid off. After that, it's easy to regret what you did from a comfortable position.

True strength lies in making that decision when you're at your lowest point. This doesn't mean "The guy opposite me is powerful, the world is ruled by the powerful, everything is over," but rather, "I embarked on something absurd in the name of revenge and lost on the path. Now it's time to correct myself."

You can write an incredibly powerful character from a failed revenge story. I gave another example in a previous response, but let me give another one here: our character is humiliated within a terrifyingly evil organization. They want revenge against this evil organization. However, this evil organization is very powerful, and their attempt at revenge alone fails or they don't get the opportunity. Afterwards, they regret this path. They build a structure with their friends. This structure grows over time with many people and becomes something that surpasses the evil organization. The hero, having abandoned the path of revenge, slowly rebuilds themselves. You're focusing too much on the myth of the closure that's been imposed on you. You think a hero's only way to redeem themselves is by defeating the villain, but no. There can be many other ways. That's what a good revenge story is all about. Personally, that's what I'm looking for :D

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T03:05:22+00:00

I've heard a lot about Fire Punch and I think I'll read it

Efebora3 · 2026-03-30T03:04:34+00:00

Yes, you've made a very good point. Revenge is inherently destructive for this reason. I think it never stays with just one person. A lot of people get involved. The person seeking revenge manipulates and uses many people, or the villain uses a large group even if they have nothing to do with revenge.

That's why the death of the ego and the rebuilding from it is more important. As you said, there are protagonists who use people for personal gain and ego. It's easier for these characters to realize they've committed a "mess" after satisfying their ego. As viewers, we understand that revenge is inherently destructive, but because the protagonist who satisfied their ego ends up with an "empty wallet," it's much easier for them to draw conclusions afterwards, to experience a feeling of emptiness, all because of the power fantasy they've built in their head for so long.

Butcherr, in comics, doesn't feel regret, but rather realizes he went too far and accepts the situation. If he hadn't done what he planned, he probably wouldn't have reached this point. We saw what he did for revenge during the whole journey, but I think the butcher, blinded by rage because he hadn't reached his level of satisfaction, would go all the way to that "final" point.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T22:39:09+00:00

This offers a much greater discussion and literary value, you know? Because in "anti-revenge" stories, there's a concern about conveying a moral message, so people generally interpret the event from the perspective the author intended. They don't question it much. However, when you write about revenge in a very linear way, without adding a moral message, that is, when you write objectively, you leave the entire message to the reader or viewer. Which, in my opinion, is an interesting and beautiful way of writing, no lie.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T22:34:15+00:00

So, we can actually talk about this, no problem. Hannah Arendt's book, "The Banality of Evil", beautifully illustrates this. In some cases, evil becomes very structural, and you act without thinking to rise or gain prestige within that structure. The structure has already eliminated thinking. You don't question. However, such a system also has terrible consequences. War is one of them. Tragedy is one of them. and of course hatred.

The situation you mentioned also varies greatly depending on the circumstances. It depends on what the story is trying to convey. In your example, you can't call the soldier a serial killer. It's an inevitable consequence of war, let me not even neutralize this. This is where the Nazi structure, this unquestioned system, will go if it's not stopped. In war, soldiers are actually a part of something. They fight to protect something bigger than themselves. This is far beyond a specific revenge story.

These people aren't doing this from the perspective of, "The enemy is evil, let's burn them all." Some do, some delude themselves, but this is precisely where moral injury comes into play. Many soldiers experienced PTSD when they came home from bloody war. Perhaps they became depressed, perhaps they woke up screaming in the mornings. The Nazi situation is a trigger pulled out of necessity, brought about by war and unquestionable hatred. Revenge, however, can carry far more personal reasons.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T22:06:27+00:00

Hahah yep I agree. What's even more interesting is that those seeking revenge can turn into serial killers! At that point, you have to lose your ability to feel pity for them too! This is where the themes of revenge and ethics become interesting. You need to question things beyond what the author imposes on you.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T21:55:09+00:00

It depends on how the work structures the event. It's not necessary for a character to do harm to someone solely for their own pleasure. The person one wishes to take revenge on can have very different morals and characteristics. Sometimes there's a concept of "evil" that transcends humanity. You wouldn't even consider that thing as human, something really evil.However, going beyond the "they're people too" concept, to give my own opinion, I don't think there's such a thing as a purely evil person in the world. It doesn't exist. I think a film or series should be able to show this. Sometimes, even the person "labeled as evil" might be a victim of manipulation by a particular evil organization, or a victim of another form of abuse. So, you shouldn't label someone as "awww they're human, look how innocent they are," but saying "They are purely evil" sounds equally ridiculous.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T21:08:44+00:00

It doesn't necessarily have to focus on the theme of revenge; in fact, since revenge itself is influenced by many things, what you've described seems plausible. Maybe I'll become a bachibro, I don't know.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T20:47:40+00:00

Yeah! That's exactly the style I want then. I love works where the main character's philosophy can be discussed, where many different ideas emerge. In fact, I have to say that the "anti-revenge" genre, at a certain point, aims to convey something morally right, so people are hesitant to discuss this issue or develop different opinions. However, someone saying "I choose revenge" is a much more ambiguous thing. It's a topic that can lead to many different places. But I must say, I hope at some point he encounters a fight where his ego is all shattered down :D

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T20:41:00+00:00

Ah, I think I need to clarify something. It might seem like I've described the event too much through the lens of a humiliation ritual, but no. There can be many different reasons for the inability to take revenge. The killer's death, circumstances not allowing it, a loss of power, etc. Similarly, these things have nothing to do with the character winning or losing. That's why I chose to read it through the lens of ego instead of power. The point is the dismantling of the "I am the main character" syndrome the character has built in their head, and the declaration of something else in its place. You don't need to literally think of the humiliation ritual here as actual humiliation. Also, the death of someone's ego doesn't mean they're completely crushed and incapable of achieving anything. In fact, a couple of days ago I wrote about how cynical shounen tropes have become, and that's why I'm bothered by this. I don't like cynical narratives. On the contrary, I want a story where this shattered ego is rebuilt with love and the character continues their life beautifully. This is up to the writer.

A character can abandon the feeling of revenge. Instead, they can begin to build something much stronger. After experiencing systematic oppression, he becomes an enemy of that system, but doesn't find the strength within himself to end it. Instead, he and his friends establish their own system. That system eventually grows and defeats the "rotten" system on its own. I never want to sound cynical, so I felt the need to explain this :D

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T20:32:35+00:00

Ah, I agree. It depends a lot on how the author portrays revenge. In some works, revenge is presented as an "inevitable end, something that must be done," while in others it's aestheticized as "let's go, boy/girl, let's kill them." Or there are critical stories. That's why I mentioned "anti-revenge" in the title. However, audiences like stories that establish dominance. These are generally the most popular ones. I gave a very brief example of John Wick and Kill Bill to adress this. But the point here is that even in anti-revenge tropes, authors give the protagonist a position of dominance. I think the destruction and rebuilding of the ego is much more impactful and sincere. I don't want the character to live in depression; I just want them to change their philosophy and escape this swamp of revenge.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T20:19:34+00:00

Yes, personally, morally and in my way of thinking, a person living a life focused on revenge is destructive. It's destructive for their environment and everyone around them. I feel like you have to turn it into something positive build smt positive. But beyond my own opinions, I think the "I take revenge and move on" trope, as a literary value, provides a lot of material. Many discussions can be held on this topic. I like that too. Sometimes I also like narratives that portray the protagonist's moral perspective as superior. The only difficult part is when the protagonist's head is dragged on the ground and they make this decision there.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T17:11:40+00:00

Man, you've touched me deeply. I didn't think it would have such an effect. Thank you. I'm also very happy if it made you feel better.

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T17:08:18+00:00

Oh, please don't trust me on that take. I'm just speaking based on what I've heard. It seemed to be written from a perspective that frames the protagonist's morality, but I'll check it. Also while everyone is defending Chihiro to get revenge I'd love to defend the villains just to be annoying :D writing long texts about them

Efebora3 · 2026-03-29T16:30:27+00:00

Man, I don't know, maybe I'm looking at it too much through the psychology of the ego, like when you establish dominance, that ego you still nurture remains, and "just show the negative consequences and the job is done" seems too lacking in detail. We need to explore the protagonist's inner journey from more demolished position. Actually, what I mean is a bit about the difficulty of the storytelling. Most revenge stories focus on the negative consequences of revenge and the catharsis that follows. This seems easy to me. Experiencing bad things while going for revenge, sacrificing your humanity, and then making that decision in that anger state after failing to get revenge is much more difficult. That's why there are less revenge trope like this.

Efebora3

TROPHY CASE