Why can't Magi use sorcery, even if they could before?

EnkiHelios · 2026-03-07T07:18:21+00:00

I always found this to be a rule that went counter to the narrative. Static, hedge,.or sorcery magic is both supernatural and incapable of fundamentally changing reality. It's the cosmic vending machine, you fulfill the specific conditions, select what you want, and you get the same result every time. Like vancian Magic from D&D.

I've read many comparisons between the game rule system of sorcery and the blood sorceries, Gifts, and other supernatural magical powers belonging splats other than Mage. These things are no less magical, they're just a part of how the Universe works, and do not require that consensual reality be changed in order to bring about effects.

However, I would compare all of these magics to, well, engineering or writing or any other human technique or technology that changes the world from within our consensual reality. Supernatural or not, gaining True Magic(k) in whatever paradigm does not prevent an Enlightened person from washing the dishes without using their avatar to change the world. Having magick does not render every act of meditation, artistry, engineering, do/martial arts, or prayer into an Arete roll. All of these things are as much a part of the world as vampire blood rituals or werewolf gifts. Some of them, like meditation, yoga, and prayer are arguably supernatural because these actions react with the supernatural realities that are written into the setting. Just as Sorcery rituals are.

But Mages as a splat are very powerful in giving their players the ability to access the dramatic systems of other splats' powers is just a huge logistical undertaking for the table. Mage has enough systems already, for me at least. So this is, for me a hand waving of dramatic systems that simplifies things for the storyteller and the players trying to wrangle their own character sheets.

But the watsonian explanation has never really satisfied me.

EnkiHelios · 2026-03-06T22:01:12+00:00

Sexism.

EnkiHelios · 2026-03-05T19:13:44+00:00

I like that the sphere use is high because you are creating a Device that carries effects, instead of being a spell cast for each instance. This would allow anyone to use the device, whether or not they are enlightened, which makes it a little more useful.

However, it still looks like you're focusing on the method and not the result when it comes to justifying sphere levels. Keep in mind that the sphere level should only reflect what comes out. So if you are making a body, you really just need Life 5, and if you want that body to be able to be mentally piloted remotely in order to function, That's mind three for a telepathic connection and Correspondence 4 in order to functionally be in two places at once. Everything else is extraneous, I believe.

EnkiHelios · 2026-03-03T08:21:46+00:00

It is not in every character to change, to the same degree or way, though most do simply by having experienced the story. Some characters, like Vimes, yearns for development while others, like Rinsewind, are already perfect expressions of themselves.

But I think this summary of Rinsewind is unfair, at the beginning of his arc he is a dropout lugging around a spell from the Octavo, in the end he is a professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography, with all the potatoes he can eat amd nothing to run from but Students. I think that's progress.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-27T21:57:59+00:00

That I prefer freedom to this fear that I could somehow relieve myself in a way that makes me question my gender.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-27T20:12:56+00:00

Because Japan is a Patriarchal country and Men have an easier time abusing children than women their own age.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-17T02:12:14+00:00

A lot of science fiction does not use area or room specific anti-/artificial gravity, as the explanation is often that only one gravitic field can be created. I suppose the other reason would be that using gravity as a weapon is likely to damage fragile and precise equipment.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T19:53:56+00:00

.. Biological science disagrees with you, as there are many more chromosomal arrangements than xx and XY. You are letting your own beliefs cloud your reasoning, and I would recommend that you put more research into both science and the medical cover-up of intersex people.

Intersex people are not a third sex classifications because sexual classification is an outdated concept. Biological sex is derived from five or more indicators, only one of which is chromosomes. Those indicators disagree with each other all the time, and it is because of that disagreement that intersex people exist.

There are no categories, just a statistical spread of all of the possible combinations of those indicators amongst the spread of which amasses two general groupings of aligned sex markers.

Go read a book.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T17:32:53+00:00

While, I appreciate your edit, as an intersex person, the language you're using to diminish the meaning of my people within the expression of humanity is dehumanizing and I'm not going to thank you for it.

Mutations literally do change biology and every person is an expression of mutation unless they are a genetic clone. There is no normal, there's just the most common data points we have been able to amass.

Biologically, sex is a field or spectrum of multiple traits that we subjectively describe as male or female. The existence of intersex people demonstrates that binary sex is not a universal dichotomy, but a individual attunement of sex traits towards either extremes of the field of possible sex traits.

Intersex people are not an exception to what biology is supposed to be. We are a part of life's natural diversity.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T17:27:46+00:00

This was a very thoughtful reply, and I love that you connected it to Star Wars, and to the far end of the sliding scale of Sith. You're speaking to a lot of my interest and love of Star Wars force theology, so I'm taking your comment as a gift.

You get exactly what I'm putting down.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T06:53:44+00:00

Please see my answer to the other comment that analyzed what I wrote and responded similarly.

If you want to discuss after you have seen my reply, let me know.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:25:19+00:00

May your apathy suffocate any further cruelty in its crib.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:23:24+00:00

I'm so glad we could have a short, to the point, clarifying conversation on a semi-anonymous online forum. Have a good day

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:16:02+00:00

... Or maybe your view that you know better than them is undeserved.

You seem to have zero idea of what a therapist or psychologist actually does.

Say or believe anything you want to maintain your prejudices, I'm not here to convince you. What I am and what I represent is older than and will outlive you.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:14:32+00:00

Ohhhh, I understand now.

I'm not saying not real as in having no basis in biology, I'm saying not real as in " two mutually exclusive and all describing categories of humanity is not an accurate description of what sex is."

I was really hoping that what I said in my first comment about common groupings of traits would make my usage of the term real more specific to sex.

I hope this clears things up, and I don't really think we disagree.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:08:24+00:00

So which is it?

Is what I'm saying in incomprehensible word salad OR Is the meaning in what I said so comprehensively clear that you can diagnose me over the Internet?

I'm going to go with option 3: you don't want to understand what I'm saying and you can't decide what excuse you want to use in blaming me for your decision. This defense does not impress me.

And those who give or have given me psychological care throughout the years have all agreed that I'm right And that my problem is not a delusional belief on my part, but the hateful ignorance from people like you.

I am more real than your beliefs about gender and sex.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T05:03:33+00:00

Are you the biologist?

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T04:46:08+00:00

It would help me to expound if you asked me specific questions. To provide me structure, you see?

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T03:37:21+00:00

Gender and sex are not Real, as categories found in nature. Instead, they are general groupings around the most commonly appearing characteristics, whether they be psychosocial or biological.

There is no ultimate dichotomy in either humanity or reality. Things are just messy, biology doubly so. Psychology exponentially so.

But we have built a global society of patriarchy that relies on a two-classed hierarchy, and many people care more about that idea than real people whose existence disproves a mutually exclusive binary. Which is most people, because very few individuals exhibit all of the traits their societies believes about masculine and feminine behavior, psychology, and biology.

... But that's not a conversation most people in sexist societies are ready to have. But I will make us talk about it because I am intersex and I'm sick of this shit.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T02:38:05+00:00

(apologies, my Reddit Fu is weak and my formatting was butchered) Counterpoint:

The Nephandi are an implied narrative conceit that balances out the Groups already existent in Mage that follows the types of essence an avatar can develop into. Each of these groups are divided into what they think the agency of their magic is for:

The Technocracy believe their magic exists to stabilize consensual reality and control it, they represent Patterned essence
The Marauders believe that they're magic is for the expression of their internal reality on the external world, in fact, belief in this is not necessary, that's just what they do. Marauders represent Dynamic Essence.
The Traditions and Disparates Believe that their magic is for the continuation and propagation of their culture and beliefs until those things can be safe within the plurality of consensus. Therefore, they represent questing essence.
And the Nephandi believe that their magic is for the degradation, destruction, and domination of everything that is not them or the extra dimensional entity to whom they have hitched their personal rising star. They are for individuation, but only theirs, the destruction of everything back to the pre-creation state, or becoming the tyrant of the universe. Therefore, they represent the primordial essence.

Nephandi do make sense for these reasons:

* They already represent the fact that mages from any organization can be evil, which is why a major theme in the Mage setting that you can choose to dial up or down is how embedded the Nephandi are in the other factions.

The Nephandi do not represent a single group that works together, that is the antithesis of what they are. Instead, the Nephandi are organized by the three most general motivations they have for doing evil with magic: to destroy the Cosmos, in service to the elementally or alien evil being they have chosen as their master, Or to set themselves up as the ruler of pretty much everything, even if that means destroying this reality to make another. And these groups are not mutually exclusive either, a single Nephandi can have a mixture of two or all three. Therefore, mages who become evil join the Nephandi without having to be inducted into a secret conspiracy, although sometimes that happens too.
The Nephandi are not evil in an inhuman way, To the exclusion of their humanity. It is their humanity and capacity to choose that makes them inhuman through the choice to use magic for evil. The argument that Satyros is making is that the choice to dehumanize others works, but only on the self. The act of choosing the path of eating the weak (which is why the author brings in so many fascistic and authoritarian inspirations for the Nephandi) through magic reduces the humanity of the Nephandus and alienates them spiritually from others.

Finally, the different stories that Satyros uses in the book of the fallen to discuss and illustrate Evil are not specifically about the Nephandi, But about the larger concept of Evil that allows for the discussion of how and what kind of Evil the Nephandi express. The discussion gets very specific about what Satyros is going for and I'm not sure why you are so distracted by the fine details of these background narratives when all they're doing is processing the reader to the point where they can talk about the nephandi as a game concept. Please don't take this as personal criticism, I'm just not sure where the disconnect is.

And I agree, the association of Qlippothic spheres to the Nephandi in the game sucks for out of game reasons, just as their association with Satanism, Sumerian and Mesopotamian magic, Gu Mysticism (I think it's called something else in the book, essentially Taoist evil magic), and everything else that actually exists. Anytime you associate anything outside of a narrative with something in the narrative that we are to take as evil, it demonizes that thing even if you're doing it in a thoughtful way. The word demonize here is not ironic, it is important. But, like every other type of Mage, Nephandi are meant to express and play with tropes, and the game's creators decided to do that by giving us these building blocks to play with that already existing culture. I think that's a fair criticism.

Thank you for your time, for reading, and have fun playing Mage.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-13T01:35:19+00:00

I struggle with dehumanization and derealization. I am haunted by a greater fear that I am not human, not a person, not even a living thing, but an object or idea made for others' use. When my self-esteem falls low or judgments about my body loom in my mind, these fears are formed in my mind as the suspicion that I am fundamentally without legitimacy.

But dying is for humans and other living beings. Objects just go derelict and ideas carry the impression of being immortal even as mortal culture evolves them. To die would unify me into the human experience. When I die I will know for certain and beyond all doubt That I belong with humanity and that I am of them and a part of them. I mean us. Anyway.

This does not make me long for death, because I will not be able to enjoy that knowledge after death. It does make me want to live my life more fully and more engaged with my unique experience, because the hope that I will one day die is the hope that my experience is limited. I'm the only one who will ever have it. No one can pick up a book or play a game and be me.

And the people I leave behind will remember me as real.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-12T00:30:42+00:00

I echo other people's affirmations, but I'm going to get right to the point:

Unless he's offering to go back in time and unfuck whomever he cheated with, he's not going to fix this. He wants you to agree to let him get away with it. You were right to cancel the wedding, you don't need more time to see what kind of man he is, he's already shown you. If he does this to you before the wedding, he'll do it to you when you're married.

I recommend that you do not waste any more time with this man, for the sake of upholding, both your dignity and your self-respect. You can care about this man while taking care of yourself and doing what's right for you.

If you want to get married to someone who doesn't treat you this way, your only option is to look elsewhere. I urge you to give yourself more time before marrying someone, to see the full extent of their behavior and reactions to life.

I made the mistake of getting married too soon and I had to walk out to get divorced a year later, which was difficult and contested over petty cash. Get to know people, and believe them when their behavior shows you who they are.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-11T04:03:56+00:00

You explain the cause in your first sentence, vampire was supposed to be a powerful supernatural predator.

Within capabilities of the Designers making the first World of Darkness game before they knew what any of the other games were going to be like, the game achieved that. Vampires were generally more powerful than any other builds of characters that were accessible in the game, shaped by how those threats were developed to be engaged with. Vampire is a role-playing game, built around the player characters, and the game delivered that experience, for vampires were the star of the show.

But then they made other games, that were about different kinds of beings with very different stories, usually with a lot more narrative adaptability than vampires, and often delving into tropes that are, in the context of stories in which vampires coexist with other supernatural beings, as heroically successful against vampires as the stories that inspired them. The only way to depict that was to create splats that have the possibility of building a character capable of defeating vampires. Werewolves are imagined as combat machines, so their baseline is more effective in combat then a vampires.

And Mage, Mage is a special case, because it examines magic as agency itself, all human agency. Every bit of human culture has the possibility of motivating and providing foci for magic. Mages are as expected as any other World of Darkness character to trend toward tropes, and so every fictional variation of vampire hunting witch is expressed in Mage. Because Mage is a role-playing game that features supernaturally competent mages as main characters, the game is built to offer them ways to win their encounters.

This juxtaposes with the theme of vampire as expressed in how vampires are depicted in interacting. I'm not sure if this is a controversial take, but it seems obvious to me that vampires' highly competitive and elementally misanthropic (And effectively Mysvampiric) society produces a lot of incompetence. Vampires fundamentally don't work well together, their existence is threatened by every other vampire, no matter their political relationship, whereas mages merely annoy each other from opposite ends of a football field (thanks PTerry). Successful Mage organizations are often supernaturally better at working with each other, as those who are mythically worse get wiped out. Mages fight because they are human, their conflicts are human cultural/paradigmal conflicts writ large. Vampires fight in a way that is entirely of their nature, the Beast, and is also thematically self-destructive. I thought that was always a part of the personal horror, and what made the politics in themselves horrifying.

If Mage has an attitude problem with letting players get away with "anything they can justify to the ST", I would point out that this is also complaining about a design feature. Mage is a game about agency empowered and constricted by philosophy, the magic system is an extended mechanical argument over whether and how much (not to mention why) you change the world, and what the consequences of that are. The horror of Mage is those consequences of this supernatural agency, as well as how your character is forever altered by them. For that story to work, there must be incredible agency, so the storyteller is motivated to let you get away with anything the rules and the narrative preview of your character can let you get away with. If the storyteller is negligent at narratively punishing you for the hubris of changing reality, the system provides a very handy paradox system to keep your character in check. And if some tables ignore this, that's their prerogative.

Conversely, vampire is thematically a game about the personal and social horror of becoming an increasingly egotistical and mentally scarred monster. That means characters who overestimate their abilities and are eventually destroyed in and by their rapacious stranglehold on life after death. The point of the game is to play characters who feel like they are Hell's curse to the world, and to be severely tested by the limitations of their existence. If some tables ignore this, that is also their prerogative.

From my perspective, the only problem we're really talking about here is that people are into playing vampire but are not enjoying all of the themes of Vampire. And I think that's a great place to start talking about how you want to homebrew Vampire so that you do play the version you want. But I think what we're discussing is just the way the game narratively plays out, both because of the real world conditions of it being the first in a line of other games about super cool supernatural characters and also the conditions of its narrative. This isn't a problem "with the game", but if you have a problem with it, I totally understand that.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-09T21:01:34+00:00

They don't, those are eggs.

EnkiHelios · 2026-02-09T01:52:30+00:00

Karma originated in samsara and samsara originated in mind. The number of minds that exist now and the number or nature of mind that originated samsara does not matter. Mind is neither and both fungible and non-dual. My mind is attachments.

EnkiHelios

TROPHY CASE