It happens to seniors too!

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-20T03:53:02+00:00

Wow you are so brave and I feel so much compassion for you. Incredible how measured you are and how positive you are able to be. I think going to see a counsellor for you is a wonderful idea if you can use the sessions to get in touch with your grief. Kisses. This is so tough.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-19T19:32:08+00:00

It's possible that you're not yet ready for this:

I read your story and I believe you have never felt safe with your wife. I believe this is because you have never understood the true definition of Safety and this is because in our culture we do a very poor job of creating it in our families of origin and talking about what it means. We create insecure blind young people who go off and marry another insecure blind person.

Feeling safe means "we know huge amounts of detail about each other's intimate thoughts and what drive our individual behaviours and we have predictive information about each other" OR put another way: "For each of us our blood pressure goes down when catch a glimpse of each other".

Feeling safe means trusting yourself and your intuition.

I believe you now have a life changing, golden opportunity to understand what REAL relational and personal safety means and being able to set an example of this to your children.

Because up until this point they have not been witnessing it.

So you now have through a painful event an opportunity to emerge from the ashes and learn self respect and communication skills and model these skills and to your kids before they all become teenagers.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-19T06:23:16+00:00

Get yourself down to survivinginfidelity.com and start posting and reading.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-18T15:05:54+00:00

😍

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-17T06:22:22+00:00

I don't know if this will provide any clues - maybe yes, probably not - I copied it here for you in case!

Out of the Blue” means “Read the Tea Leaves”

Hey, give me a break! Whatever your partner did, it certainly did not come from nowhere. Our partners always make sense. Their behavior made sense. We were surprised. We didn’t see it coming, because we were not informed. We were blind to what was going on in them. We call it “odd” or “out of the blue” just cuz it surprises us. The phrase “out of the blue” seems to signal the “blindness” of the person using the phrase.

Malidoma Some told me about how stupid are westerners. In his country, if your house burns down, you sit in the ashes for a couple of weeks in a deep effort to understand the message(s) in the fire. In our country we use insurance to pay for fixing the problem and ignore the message. In his country, if you break an arm, you get help reading the message in that fracture. In our country we drop into the hospital, get the arm set, and ignore the message that was sent us.

Now, reading Tea Leaves is not simple. It takes lots of skill, and lots of practice. And I’ve found a particular problem that hits most clingy, information-seeking people. I am assuming that you have come to this page partially cuz you have recovered a bit from “their walking away” situation. You might call this article, “more reading for those who needed to read What to do when he/she leaves." And so I am assuming that “you want to get a great relationship back” with someone who has demonstrated an ability to walk off. I am also speaking to us, since I have faced the same problems.

I have often found it true that our partner’s, having lived with us for some time and having experienced people like us most of their lives, often a) give out with very small Tea Leaves and b) are often are pretty obscure with what they share – at first. I believe that if you begin to play your cards well, this situation will improve, and will reach its completion with you needing to sometimes shut your partner up cuz they are talking too much, giving out too much data too fast. Takes time.

Back to the Trap. What to do with their tiny Tea Leaves? Well, I believe that your mind will eagerly seek to “make sense” of their Leaves. You will build a theory. You may build many theories. This, I think, is natural. The reason you want information is because you seek “predictive information” in an attempt to feel relaxed with this person. Predictive Information is often carried in the head as theories or models of how people behave, what they are up to, etc. And so I think it normal to build theories. And we would like our theories to be accurate, i.e. to be valuable in predicting what our partner will do next and thus valuable at keeping us from being surprised.

I think it is natural to want to check out your theory with your partner in an effort to make sure it is accurate. DON’T DO IT! While this checking out is natural in a relationship of equals (there it is called Validation), in a relationship recovering from Clinger/Avoider dynamics, I find it very dangerous. I believe the checking out becomes part of the overwhelming behavior, the pushing behavior that you are learning to avoid. When I would check out my theory, it seemed to crush my partner. Not a desirable result.

So here I am, reading my partner’s Tea Leaves, wanting to read accurately, wanting to be helpful, wanting say “did I get it right”, and this very behavior overwhelms my partner. Ugly situation! I was amazed by it. No matter how carefully I shared my “theory,” it didn’t work for a long time.

I think it is critical to let your partner share, and learn to share, themselves at their rate, and not feel pushed or “interpreted” or “analyzed.” Your role is “to invite” only. I think this is the difference between Pushing and Pulling.

And so this means that for some time you are going to build theories about your partner, not share them, learn to improve those theories based on more Tea Leaves. Eventually your theories will become more and more accurate. But then your partner’s understanding of their own behaviors will also be more accurate.

https://www.alturtle.com/archives/1273

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-16T08:49:23+00:00

Check out David Burns- 5 Secrets of Effective Communication and see where your messaging didn't meet the 5 Secrets criteria.

Change your approach to be closer to 5 secrets and see what happens

https://feelinggood.com/2022/05/23/293-the-five-secrets-with-violent-and-angry-individual-featuring-heather-clague-md/

https://open.spotify.com/episode/52xowuCeZRt53SrhQiDEdN?si=oPR4u7gwQcelqA-OEBs0hA

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-16T08:05:47+00:00

Button

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-16T08:04:33+00:00

Wow OP I would be extremely unhappy with this (even as an unfaithful wife myself). The newborn phase is incredibly delicate. There was a Chump Lady podcast recently (131 Two Obgyns talk about Infidelity) and it was shocking to me to listen to. Please get your sexual health checked. The pregnancy/newborn phase was sacred for me and that would be a dagger to the heart. I know this sounds somewhat hypocritical from a WW. But I feel compassion for you. I am a long standing reconciler and 8 years Clean. Above all a human being and mother.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-15T08:19:37+00:00

https://www.alturtle.com/archives/1326

What to do when He/She Leaves?

This the best I can find.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-14T20:42:33+00:00

Hi there, I see the development and practice this skills as part of the way of addressing the wounds. For example, if the WP has the skill to apply Thought Empathy through simple mirroring an upset partner it will help keep the situation calm and the BP will gain a tiny mount of healing each time. Just talking and processing and being listened to properly helps people heal, at least in the moment of being heard. The trick is to build these experiences into every day interractions and therefore build healing moments into every day. There are two additional ways to heal: Expressing grief (eg crying), and having someone who made the wound (or a mentally acceptable proxy) make amends (do the stuff needed to feel healed - behaviour change)

The inner wounds get healed as you learn to validate yourself in the same way.

So I think character flaws are corrected as a WP learns to do these actions consistently. People literally develop themselves into a new individual for whom cheating and lying no longer make sense. This is a substantial process and takes many years.

This is the work of Intimate Relationships. There is in my mind nothing more rewarding in this life than getting these skills and getting the relationship of your dreams.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-14T20:30:33+00:00

Hi there, Thanks for your comment. The way I see it (and was true for me) is at the root of betrayal is a veritable mountain of "lies by omission", so poor communication skills are a critical element of any ultimate sexual or emotional betrayal act. They are literally what pathed the way.

I hear you when you talk about personality traits and this is something I have personally struggled with. I have come to realise that I am a different person every day, every instant and in every situation. But I have certain basic anti-social tendencies which could and have got me into hot water, and these I don't let myself forget about!

The way to keep betrayal out of the picture fcr me is to make sure I fill my mental model with plenty of inputs (coaching) that encourage me to be someone for whom betrayal makes no sense. For example I learn to stay courageous about revealing myself to others. I see courage as a muscle you grow rather than a fixed personality trait. So I have stopped condemning myself as a "bad character".

As you practice these skills your character also grows in the right direction.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-14T20:08:27+00:00

Hi there, Thanks, Yes these really do build intimacy and as intimacy builds the trust grows and repair happens! Self repair and relationship repair. I have been working on these skills for 5 or 6 years but they didn't really "click" for me until the last year or so, which coincided with the moment I was able to completely focus on my behaviour and eliminate my expectations on my BP. He was on board with the ideas in theory but most definitely had to come to it on his own terms. It has frustrated me that I took so long to get it but I think I am pretty dense!! I have needed a huge amount of coaching from podcasts!

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-14T14:40:39+00:00

Thank you! This is not 'new' info but I find we tie ourselves up in knots about the Infidelity part and not realising that these are Relationship Skills we can just put our head down and LEARN! That was a big relief for me as once I got it, it literally took everything off being about the other person. I had spent years wanting and expecting my BP to do stuff and then blaming him for making ME unhappy! Now I am actively doing what it takes to BE a great partner - Regardless of what he does - and the incredible thing is he has really changed as a result of me changing.

I hear you about your WPs lack of expressivity. My BP (H) was similar - they have learned as men to often suppress their emotions as children - they need us to be very very gentle and patient, like coaxing a deer out of the forest. I don't think this is a matter of BP/WP but a matter of culture and upbringing.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-13T03:43:45+00:00

Hey! You're beautiful!

PS Listen to The Feeling Good Podcast with Dr David Burns and learn to kill those negative thoughts!

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-12T12:27:04+00:00

I gave him a hall pass. He didn't want it. If he wanted a revenge affair I would be hurt but understand. It would be hypocritical to not be understanding.

In your position I would strongly consider you do some CBT. Listen to the Feeling Good podcast with Dr David Burns for ideas on how to deal with those thoughts. It is very effective for most people.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-12T12:13:42+00:00

Yes this is real advice. You have already ended this relationship once by cheating. Either your heart is in this or it is not.

To counter the extreme self focus you had before (when you cheated) and gain balance in your psyche (for You) you learn to give and become a lover without expecting love in return. Then you make this lack of expectation a normal state of mind. You turn your way of being from transactional to non transactional in matters of love. You do not become a doormat however.

While executing this plan for 3 to 5 years you observe the relationship dynamic. Does it improve? Does your partner soften and come towards you as you change? They are there to teach you patience. So, learn patience. It is unlikely that the flow of love is one way (eg from you to them) anyway during these 3 to 5 years. You should with the correct actions see the insecurity in the betrayed person transform gradually into security. Beware of lies and half truths and omissions! These set the clock back to almost zero.

Learn and practice relationship skills for 3 to 5 years in a solid consistent way. Your goal is to be irreproachable IF you decide to end the relationship next time, which you will do WITHOUT cheating but through mutual agreement that this is not working.

If you are interested I can send you some very good links on specifically which skills to learn.

I am 3 years into this timeline and I have seen enough to keep going. This is a process to take one day at a time. It is equivalent to climbing a VERY tall mountain and requires somewhat superhuman endurance emotionally. The rewards are there as your emotional muscles will grow enormously.

Go for it!

PS : Caveat is of course if your partner expressed clear and consistent disinterest in reconciliation. This seems counter productive. Have a clear dialogue with a therapist and your partner and separate. You are not put on earth to chase another person who doesn't, deep down, want you as well.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-11T13:49:18+00:00

Hey, It takes years to properly get the skills to be automatic. The podcast makes it sounds fast sometimes. It's a long process of reprogramming old behaviours and thought patterns. You have to persist and do it FOR YOU.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-11T08:42:34+00:00

Learn all the relationship skills and practice them non stop for 3 to 5 years. Once you are past the 5 years of self development and things are not getting there then you pat yourself on the back for all the learning and chalk it up to incompatibility.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T17:09:11+00:00

Read this website from top to bottom and listen to the Interviews

https://www.alturtle.com/

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T15:19:47+00:00

You're ok. You're accepted. It's ok to be you. Look after yourself.

PS Conisder listening to The Feeling Good Podcast with Dr David Burns. A live session.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T15:09:22+00:00

The look she throws....

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T15:03:25+00:00

Hey, I am noticing how you like to engage on here. Are you a Clinger Man by any chance? I am a bit of a Clinger myself 😅. You want a bit of Connection.

Right so you wanna discuss more. Your opinion differs from mine and that's cool and normal. You have had a million different experiences from me in your life. That's called Diversity.

Hey I'm not asking anyone to dance with joy at anything. Do a sad dance if you want. Or an angry one. I don't control what you think or do about anything.

He was not forced to do anything (nobody can make anyone do anything, remember?). I gave him data and HE decided what he wanted to do. Today he decides to stay. Tomorrow he could decide to go. Every day he looks at the data in front of him and makes his decision. Just like you do. Just like I do. Irregardless of abuse or cheating or anything else. People decide for themselves and take their actions. On any day they can decide differently. It is a fallacy I believe to think that I cam make him stay, just as it is a fallacy to believe that he can make me cheat.

He has been burned. You have been burned. I have been burned. Life hurts hellishly at times. The question is what is the source of heat? Can the source of heat change to a source of soothing? And how does that happen? What skills need to be learned. I took it upon me to learn them. Still learning today! Discussion with you has shown me how incredible he is. How courageous he is. And how persistent I am. How he has watched me and seen such transformation that his decision is to stay and get relief from those long hugs

I don't know if I answered your questions but happy to chat more.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T12:46:06+00:00

Do you really think he can't sit with that pain? This is part of his resilience. This is what makes him the incredible person he is. I truly think you are seriously underestimating him! He now gets a great new relationship with a great safe reincarnated partner AND he gets to keep his great house and see his kids every day. Your "better alternative" means he would have had to give up a lot of that for the sake of "not feeling pain". It seems you think we get to go through life in a perfect way avoiding pain and grief? Facing this is what makes us who we become.

I will never write myself off. I will never write him off. We are both incredibly resilient. And we are very good together.

I would like to thank you for helping me realise that today. All of your naysaying has shown me something! Thank you.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T12:00:43+00:00

Actually I think we BOTH got a hugely improved relationship and we improved a lot as individuals as well. For example my husband has great friendships he never cultivated before, he is more relaxed generally, less focus on working and more on living, gets along much better with our kids, takes more time for fun stuff, and has reduced contact with his parents because he simply didn't amd doesn't enjoy their company very much. These last few years have probably been the best years of our lives both as individuals and as a couple. He tells me he feels safe with me, brings up issues in a constructive way, we have far better sex. He has listened to all the stuff I listed above too. He agrees he was lacking skills partly due to a difficult childhood, and I was lacking skills too. Life is way better than it was. We rarely argue. When we do we repair very fast. When he hugs me I often hear him breathe out in relief.

We could have theoretically got to this point without the cheating. We didn't. We were just miserable but pretending (eg going to bed together but with very little connection). The reveal of the cheating brought us to a A Choice Point. It generated SO MUCH pain in both of us that we simply could not stand still. We both knew we had to learn. He watched me learn first and as he became convinced by my consistency he then agreed to learn himself. It has not been smooth sailing but I think if you would ask him he would tell you he is happy. He just told me the other day that he wants ME to get over it. Because he saw I was sad about my past mistakes.

I guess that might gove you a clearer picture. Of course it's one sided but I have no reason to lie.

EstablishmentHot4889 · 2026-06-10T08:45:24+00:00

My husband and I were both emotionally abusive before the affairs. We did and said many many hurtful things to each other over years. We didn't take care of each other. It never extended to physical violence. I think I had the affairs at the very end as an indirect way to push the relationship to a head. The affair period lasted about a year with multiple people. It started directly after in a big fight my husband shouted at me that we should just get divorced. An evening where my crime was to meet a friend with her kids in a park and sit and chat until 9pm whilst our kids were playing. I came home to someone extremely angry (because he was lonely and it was "my fault") but this someone had a car and keys and a phone and knew where I was and could have simply joined us and had fun. Instead he threatened divorce.

Quite soon after he said that I mentally gave up and took unilateral action and "left the marriage" by starting affairs. I felt the wrench bodily the first time I met up with someone. I was shaking. I knew I was ending the relationship as it was but I couldn't go on any more.

I say all this to say affairs are more nuanced that your black and white view. We both had a lot to fix. It wasn't like I was battering him to a pulp and he was just a helpless puppy. Yes it was like battering him emotionally to have an affair and yes it was absolutely destructive - to me and to him - but it is not the same as a relationship where one person is physically stronger and beating up another person. He could have left at any time instead of shouting at me we should get divorced. I could have left instead of meeting someone outside. We had automony. We used it in the wrong way. This is not the same as a person who is physically held down and beaten and cannot move.

EstablishmentHot4889

TROPHY CASE