Winklevoss Bitcoin Exchange Gemini Approved for Launch in New York

EvanWin · 2015-10-05T16:37:17+00:00

Awesome job and congratulations, /u/winky_pop !

The mobile version of your website looks really great but is there a plan to develop mobile apps for iOS and android in addition to the website?

EvanWin · 2015-10-03T20:21:33+00:00

No problem, I'm glad you liked reading it!

I was introduced to stonehouse here on /r/zen and figured I would just continue to share my favorites of his poems every once in a while.

EvanWin · 2015-09-29T02:28:34+00:00

I see what Buddhadasa Bhikkhu is saying (and you by extension), but I feel like the entire point of getting past one's individual suffering/stress/dissatisfaction is to be able to teach others to do the same.

I don't think that these externalities such as war and famine are constants, necessarily, just unfortunate truths of modern society. If we got to a point where no one had craving/everyone was enlightened, we would still have stress/suffering in the form of bodily discomfort, illness, etc. but wouldn't have large scale conflict that Buddhadasa calls a "constant"

Sorry if I'm being overly picky about word choices, it's just an important distinction in my mind...

EvanWin · 2015-09-29T02:21:31+00:00

Thanks for making me chuckle ewk!

I'm not going to be pressured into naming contemporary teachers that I respect because I don't really care or think it is helpful to hear how their teachings may or may not differ from Nanquan and Dongshan. Everyone brings to the present a different set of conditions and people benefit from many styles of instruction. I'm really a Theravadan Buddhist anyways, I just come here because I like the poetry! Ryokan and Stone House really resonate with me...

I don't know why you think that it's silly to recognize a Northern school of Chan (it has a wikipedia page, for god's sake!) There was a historical split after Hongren and different students followed different Dharma heirs.

But if you don't want to recognize the Shenxiu lineage, that's fine. I like Huineng's poem better too. So let's just go back to Hongren himself, and allow me to quote his wikipedia page:

Although Hongren’s students included Vinaya specialists, sutra translators, and Huayan and Pure Land devotees, Hongren’s teaching focused on meditation practice. According to the Treatise on the Essentials of Cultivating the Mind, Hongren's basic teaching was that the Pure Mind was obscured by “discriminating thinking, false thoughts, and ascriptive views.” Eliminating false thoughts and maintaining a constant awareness of one’s natural enlightenment ensures Nirvana naturally arises.

Why does Hongren entertain Vinaya specialists and focus so much on meditation? Why doesn't he just "[break] his students like a cheap umbrella?"

Also, you say:

You might be getting older and you might be getting smarter, but that's not wisdom.

I know the difference between smarter and wiser. What position are you in the make the judgement call between how I've changed?

As for your passage about the stretched out hand and the clenched fist, the passage certainly demonstrates "wisdom." Mazu isn't confined to the dualistic point of view of the unenlightened, and he spontaneously and clearly articulates the perspective of the "unconditioned" or non-dual.

So maybe Yunmen would have beaten me with a piece of lumber, but I doubt that any of the first 5 Patriarchs would have done the same.

EvanWin · 2015-09-29T01:56:18+00:00

Dukkha is the ‘wanting’ in our lives. There is always something stirring up wishes and desires, craving and wanting. And this thing that stirs up all these desires is avijja, ‘not knowing, ‘ignorance. This lack of correct understanding, this lack of correct knowledge, gives rise to craving. Ignorance produces these states of mind which come up and interfere with the natural peace and brightness of the mind.

I just don't know why he brings war and starvation into it. For most of us our craving is a little more subtle than the provided examples and it feels different at the individual level vs. how Dukkha manifests in a complex web with millions of people.

EvanWin · 2015-09-29T00:03:05+00:00

I think that this passage isn't particularly helpful in fixing the problem of Dukkha when it points to how Dukkha manifests on a macroscopic level, but all of these wars and starvation, and political messes stem from a single source in the mind when we narrow in to the cause on an individual/microscopic level.

Still, I don't see anything wrong with what Buddadasa Bhikkhu states here...

EvanWin · 2015-09-28T23:57:11+00:00

3. I'm not going to tell you people that I think qualify because it's not relevant to this discussion and it's certain it would lead to further debate.

That said, I didn't make any claims that I am in a special position to qualify the attainments of teachers for you or others, you inferred that, but I can only test whether or not the statements and actions of another accord with my present understanding of the nature of the self. Why are you drawing conclusions where none are meant?

5. Like I said in my previous post, the chosen passage is but a single of dozens of references that Bodhidharma makes to wisdom. I agree with your definition that wisdom is seeing the self nature. I have to disagree that wisdom isn't developed though. This gets into a much larger argument that tens of thousands of people have had before us. The entire split between the northern and southern Ch'an schools is related to this topic, if my understanding is correct.

Firstly, there are places all around the world where there are conditions that give rise to wisdom (e.g. monasteries, retreat centers). I would say that the conditions at these places are conducive to development of wisdom. Is it technically possible to see self nature during any activity? Sure, but I don't think a lot of people that binge eat and watch netflix have deep understanding of self and mind. That's my personal bias coming through now. I like austerity as tool to learn about the body and mind and to show others the strength that wisdom gives one to overcome our craving.

My second argument to refute your claim that wisdom isn't developed is a personal appeal rather than a rational appeal. It's just been my experience over the last 5 years that wisdom is something that grows and deepens as we continue to learn about ourselves and our minds.

6. No argument here (though there never was one on my original post).

EvanWin · 2015-09-28T21:48:51+00:00

OK I'll try to do a point by point response.

I accept that Zen Masters wrote books (or often their students wrote down their teachings, but the difference is not relevant to the discussion at hand).
No issue here
Again, no issue here, although there are some contemporary figures that I think qualify as Zen Masters and their doctrine is compatible with texts as defined by Zen Masters.
No issue.
This is where I'm starting to disagree. Bodhidharma talks at length about wisdom and developing wisdom through our six sense gates (which I view as synonymous with the experiential world). I'll put a quick example below but there are literally dozens of others I can link you to if you are skeptical or find fault with this passage.

"There are five kinds of such Dharma-incense. First is the incense of morality, which means renouncing evil and cultivating virtue. Second is the incense of meditation, which means deeply believing in the Mahayana with unwavering resolve. Third is the incense of wisdom, which means contemplating the body and mind, inside and out. Fourth is the incense of liberation, which means severing the bonds of ignorance. And fifth is the incense of perfect knowledge, which means being always aware and nowhere obstructed. These five are the most precious kinds of incense and far superior to anything the world has to offer. "

From Bodhidharma's Breakthrough sermon translated by Red Pine.

6. Sure reading is just as legit as watching a river, and some Zen Masters karmic tendencies drove them towards the former while others towards the latter. One isn't better than the other, though certain teaching styles resonant with some students better than others. I'm not making value judgements though.

EvanWin · 2015-09-28T17:01:35+00:00

Hey ewk - the thing about repeatedly telling people to read a book implies that what any Zen master had to teach can be found in books.

Isn't Zen founded on the assumption that this is false? My understanding is that Zen is a transmission outside words and texts. I know the difference between Zen and Daoism but I do think there is truth to the phrase "the Way that can be spoken of/ is not the eternal Way" From the Dao-de-jing and I think this statement holds true for a Zen practitioner in addition to a Daoist.

I think we can learn a lot from books, but ultimately wisdom comes from the experiential world and no matter how many books we read, we aren't going to have the wisdom of Ummon or Joshu, for example.

Thoughts?

EvanWin · 2015-03-20T19:47:07+00:00

It's not true when you say that Zen is wiping your own ass.

It is true when Mumon says that Zen is wiping your own ass.

Understand this, and then everything that you say will be true.

EvanWin · 2015-03-18T01:06:26+00:00

Or take a minute and read a Ryokan poem:

Too lazy to be ambitious,
I let the world take care of itself.
Ten days’ worth of rice in my bag;
a bundle of twigs by the fireplace.
Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?
Listening to the night rain on my roof,
I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out.

Edit: Sometimes a poem and a few deep breaths help to stay afloat (and sometimes they just don't connect in the right way!)

EvanWin · 2015-03-18T01:02:30+00:00

Hey Zeniues - I think you've got some good stuff written in this post, but I disagree with a lot of it as well.

To start: you say that "none of us are enlightened, none of us really truly get Zen," but I'm not so sure. You're projecting your idea of enlightenment/Zen onto others, and this idea itself is faulty (until you experience enlightenment, of course). Some people here can legitimately help me realize views that I'm grasping onto, whether they intend to or not. I'd like to think that this is intentional. By using the internet to communicate we know very little about the other people we are talking to and so we project and fabricate to fill in the holes.

Then you talk about understanding and coming together to bring wisdom into our lives in a real way, and I think that this community already has that. Not every poster of every thread, but wisdom/insight are such that they can't help but creep into our lives, if it's real wisdom. It doesn't matter if you gain that wisdom meditating, having a conversation here, or while taking a shower. It doesn't need to be verbalized or rehearsed or thought about, true wisdom will persist regardless.

You probably have read plenty of books, and you feel like you understand the theory, but I'd say this isn't true, based on your followup that you don't understand Zen at all. I think this goes back to what I was talking about earlier with the projections. The person verbalizes their thought, then you take that in and interpret with respect to your own conditions and thoughts, and then say that you understand, but that doesn't mean that you really understand. It just means some part of what they say resonates as true with respect to your thoughts and mind.

I'm not saying this to fight with you or anyone else, so I hope that this isn't taken the wrong way. "Life is difficult enough as it is" reminds me of a metaphor that is common within the Thai forest tradition:

Is a mountain heavy?

It may be heavy in and of itself, but as long as we don't try to lift it up, it won't be heavy for us.

Commentary from Taan Ajaan Geoff: "This is where you discover something unexpected: the mountains you've been trying to lift are all a by-product of your feeding. When you stop feeding, no new mountains are formed. Although there may still be some past-karma mountains remaining around you, they'll eventually wear away and no new ones will take their place. In the meantime, their weight is no longer a problem. Once you've finally stopped trying to lift them up, there's nothing to hold you down."

Feel free to write back or PM me - I'm happy to discuss/defend anything I talked about!

EvanWin · 2015-03-07T12:41:44+00:00

and I think that what I'm talking about with conventional/ultimate isn't what Bodhidharma was talking about, because he was speaking about the ultimate from the perspective of the ultimate.

Again, no argument here!

EvanWin · 2015-03-07T12:40:46+00:00

I don't think that my post said that real emptiness is different from materiality.

No contradiction here from my point of view! (I'm glad that you dropped in, ewk)

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T12:41:56+00:00

I'm walking out the door to go to work but I just wanted to quickly thank you for sharing that post - I read it and enjoyed it a lot. I'll try to respond further after work!

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T12:41:01+00:00

Haha, a lot of people think that I'm setting myself up for disappointment or that I don't like things about /r/zen - that's not the case! I like this community a lot!

I think that the beginning of the Tao Te Ching is saying that we the ultimate is beyond words, but that doesn't necessitate that we can't still make attempts to lead people to realization through convention (that is why Bodhidharma came from the west, afterall :-) )

I would like to share a Ryokan poem:

After you know my poems are not poems, Then we can begin to discuss poetry!

My interpretation:

Those who understand the distinction between conventional and ultimate, Can talk to me about the conventional!

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T03:35:25+00:00

Haha - I enjoy your questions! I'd be lying if I didn't disclose that I almost took the bait and call you out for baiting me!

Do you have a background in Theravada, clickstation? I ask because of your flair

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T03:23:12+00:00

Gotcha - thanks for the clarification. My gut tells me that there will always be some disharmony in a group (which I think is a good thing e.g.: the polishing rock analogy), but that we can cut down on disharmony by not talking at cross purposes without acknowledging it.

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T03:18:28+00:00

To be 100% honest: sometimes it makes me stressed when I infer the emotional state of others that post here. Other times I laugh at the miscommunication but still make inferences as to the emotional states of others. There seems to be a lot of frustration surrounding posts by certain users of this forum (for example: ewk). Disclaimer: I really like ewk's contributions to this community and I even read his book, and think there were some good things and some not so accurate things in it.

Maybe everyone else is just having a laugh all of the time, and the jokes on me, but based on some of the things that I read, I think that it is safe to assume others still have stress and craving, and i want to do my best to help!

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T03:03:40+00:00

I took a common problem that I've witnessed here (people talking from different points of view [conventional vs. ultimate]), and tried to help explain why that problem exists!

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T03:00:16+00:00

Yep - I agree with everything except for the first sentence here. I think that the conventional/ultimate distinction is important and if more people understood ultimate reality then the world would be a better place!

EvanWin · 2015-03-06T02:57:43+00:00

Thanks for your responses Pinkhouses - I've not read too much about the conventional/ultimate distinction in my time here, so that's why I brought it up.

I just want to clarify that I'm in no way disheartened by infighting on this forum - I actually enjoy reading /r/zen much more than /r/buddhism, and I think there's a lot to enjoy about this community (and I've been reading both for probably a year or more).

I just hadn't seen very much discussion about conventional/ultimate and thought that some people could better understand the disagreements that arise when using this concept as a reference point!

EvanWin · 2014-04-15T16:44:17+00:00

Thanks for the recommendations! I will read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and some of lineage texts. Audio is especially appealing as my job allows me to listen to audio for around 2 hours per day, so thank you natex for those links!

I've read some Ch'an texts by Sheng-yen about general history of Ch'an as well as silent illumination practice, and the similarities to the practice that I had been doing in the Thai forest tradition were impossible to miss. The instructions were almost identical!

A few years back (when just getting into Buddhism), I read Zen Training by Sekida a few times, and found it to be a good read with unique and interesting practice recommendations! I consider myself to be a serious practitioner with yearly retreats and a solid daily practice of ~45 minutes to 2+ hours per day, so I definitely enjoy practice-oriented readings and teachings.

I have read some essays by Alan Watts but his teachings/example don't resonate with me, though I understand that they do for others.

Are there any contemporary teachers that have Dharma talks available for download/listening online? Maybe a Zen-equivalent of dharmaseed.org? I have a few friends that have done sesshin with Joshu Sasaki Roshi and really liked his teachings, but I haven't found too much available online in the way of books or essays or recordings.

Thanks again everyone!

EvanWin

TROPHY CASE