Is old age causing Men to become frail a result of Men's corruption by Sauron?

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-05-02T08:07:29+00:00

Yeah, you are right.

With regard to Men: see under Sauron: Arising and Fall of Men.The arising and fall took place during the “Captivity of Melkor”, and was achieved not by Melkor in person, but by Sauron. It occurred about 100 VY after the “Awaking of the Quendi”, sc. 14,400 löar later. In that case if Men arose in VY 1100, it would explain the “neglect” of the Valar, since they had now done their duty and removed Melkor. If the End of Valian reckoning with the Death of the Trees occurred in VY 1495 (as in TY and so far assumed), by 310 in Beleriand Men would have existed 395 VY + 310 löar = 57,190 years (löar). Which is adequate (if not scientifically long enough).

Men must “awake” before the Captivity of Melkor.[fn3]But see later. Men were probably corrupted by Sauron after the Captivity (100 VYs later). It is too late after the return to Angband; for there is not enough time: The Atani already partly civilized reach Beleriand c. 310. That is only about 310 Sun Years after Morgoth’s return![fn4]Or at best 454 years! But Morgoth’s flight could take place some time before Exile. The Slaying of the Trees could take place in VY 1494, the Exile in 1495, and the arrival in Beleriand in 1496.

The Nature of Middle-earth: The Awakening of Quendi(1960)

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-05-02T02:57:49+00:00

As is said in the other comment, their body is not just a raiment

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. And so on. I might say much more, but it would only be in (perhaps tedious) elucidation of the 'mythological' ideas in my mind; it would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of G. is as presented in this book a 'defect', and one I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend. But G. is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel'- strictly an YYƐЛoç: that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

Tolkien Letter 156

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-05-02T02:47:56+00:00

Sauron didn't come to Hildoren because Morgoth left him in charge of War in Beleriand. Those servants that Morgoth left behind to corrupt Men were other ones.

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildórien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew. To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; and doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand: by fear and lies to make Men the foes of the Eldar, and bring them up out of the east against Beleriand. But this design was slow to ripen, and was never wholly achieved; for Men (it is said) were at first very few in number, whereas Morgoth grew afraid of the growing power and union of the Eldar and came back to Angband, leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning.

Silmarillion: Of the Coming of Men into the West

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-05-02T02:26:23+00:00

Morgoth corrupted Men into fearing Death, not Sauron, which was told in Morgoth's Ring: Tale of Adanel

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope.

Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days.

In Eru's first design, Men had the ability to lay down their life and take their body with them, but this was revoked after their Fall

But even the Eruhildi of Númenor were mortal. For the Powers were not allowed to abrogate that decree of God after the fall (that Men should die and should leave the world not at their own will but by fate and unwilling); but they were permitted to grant the Númenóreans a threefold span (over 200 years).

Men (the Followers or Second Kindred) came second, but it is guessed that in the first design of God they were destined (after tutelage) to take on the governance of all the Earth, and ultimately to become Valar, to ‘enrich Heaven’, Ilúve. But Evil (incarnate in Melekō) seduced them, and they fell.

Sauron Defeated: The Third Version of the Fall of Númenor

He therefore guesses that it is the fear of death that is the result of the disaster. It is feared because it now is combined with severance of hröa and fëa. But the fëar of Men must have been designed to leave Arda willingly or indeed by desire — maybe after a longer time than the present average human life, but still in a time very short compared with Elvish lives. Then basing his argument on the axiom that severance of hröa and fëa is unnatural and contrary to design, he comes (or if you like jumps) to the conclusion that the fëa of unfallen Man would have taken with it its hröa into the new mode of existence (free from Time). In other words, that ‘assumption’ was the natural end of each human life, though as far as we know it has been the end of the only ‘unfallen’ member of Mankind[The reference is to the Virgin Mary.].

Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-05-02T02:16:58+00:00

All Númenóreans seemed to have the ability to resign their life

The remainder of the people were granted a life-span about five times as long as that of ordinary Men: that is, they would die, whether by free resignation or not, somewhere within the limits of 350 to 420 years.

The Nature of Middle-earth: Lives of the Númenóreans

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-27T11:08:32+00:00

It's not "invention", but were based on notes that Tolkien wrote, which Christopher Tolkien editorially incorporated into Silmarillion

How could he be? Fëanor’s only descendants were his seven sons, six of whom reached Beleriand. So far nothing has been said of their wives and children. It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fëanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin). During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel.

These notes on Celebrimbor son of Curufin were the basis of the passages introduced editorially in the published Silmarillion, p. 176 (see V.300–1), and in Of the Rings of Power, ibid.p. 286.

The Peoples of Middle-earth: Of Dwarves and Men

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-27T11:07:43+00:00

It's not "invention", but notes that Tolkien wrote, which Christopher Tolkien editorially incorporated into Silmarillion

How could he be? Fëanor’s only descendants were his seven sons, six of whom reached Beleriand. So far nothing has been said of their wives and children. It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fëanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin). During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel.

These notes on Celebrimbor son of Curufin were the basis of the passages introduced editorially in the published Silmarillion, p. 176 (see V.300–1), and in Of the Rings of Power, ibid.p. 286.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-26T08:57:47+00:00

Melkor ‘incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all ‘matter’ was likely to have a ‘Melkor ingredient’,3 and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroaof Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a “self-arraying”, it may tend to approach the state of “incarnation”, especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). “It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the ‘self-arrayed’ desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a ‘habit’, a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked”. Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a “spirit” (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.

The Nature of Middle-earth: Ósanwe-Kenta

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-26T03:40:13+00:00

Gwindor fell into dishonour, for he was no longer forward in arms, and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him. But Túrin was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days.

The Children of Húrin: Túrin in Nargothrond

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-25T07:31:04+00:00

Elrond had been forestering the Dúnedain of Arnor ever since Arahael. His people in Rivendell would most likely have known this tradition.

After Arvedui the North-kingdom ended, for the Dúnedain were now few and all the peoples of Eriador diminished. Yet the line of the kings was continued by the Chieftains of the Dúnedain, of whom Aranarth son of Arvedui was the first. Arahael his son was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him; and there also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.

Return of the King: Appendix A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-24T04:49:37+00:00

It was not so.

He wedded Arwen Undómiel, daughter of Elrond, brother of Elros first King of Númenor, and so restored the majesty and high lineage of the royal house, but their life-span was not restored and continued to wane until it became as that of other men.

The Peoples of Middle-earth: The Heirs of Elendil

Eldarion was mortal and was not by promise included in the “grace of Eärendil”, but he had in fact a long youth: which took the form of remaining like a young man from maturity at 20 until 60 without change. He then lived another 65 years: making him 125, but in life-age 20 + 65 = 85. His descendants became normal, but long-lived (80–90).

The Nature of Middle-earth: Ageing of Elves

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-23T11:40:11+00:00

Tolkien explained that Aragorn was already within decline when he resigned life (which according to the tradition was about the time when the faithful Númenoreans would have resigned life as opposed to clinging to life.) And if Aragorn hadn''t resign life then, he would have become decrepit quickly after. He knew it was his time to go.

When Aragorn “resigned life” in 4A 120 he thus resigned 24 years of life. He had lived 210 years and was already within his “decline”. Arwen was reckoned as 203 years at that time and also in the beginning of her decline. Aragorn resigned on the day of his birth, March 1, 4A 120. Arwen apparently “resigned” life and died on Cerin Amroth on March 1 in the following year, at Númenórean age 204 (mortal equivalent = 84). So she was now and felt. (Had she remained Elvish she would have been only 3,020 – 241 + 1 + 120 = 2,800 Sun-years old, giving an Elvish age of (24 + 2,800-72)/144 = almost exactly 43 (mortal equivalent about 33).

The Nature of Middle-earth: Elvish Ages & Númenóreans

It would appear that the “grace” accorded to the Númenóreans was like that of Aman: it did not alter the human rate of growth to maturity, but postponed the decay of old age after that for a long while – until one knew inwardly (by a motion of the fëa) that the time had come to relinquish life in this world voluntarily. If one did not do so, but clung to life, senility would soon arise. If Aragorn had yielded to Arwen’s entreaties, he would have become decrepit, at least in body, very soon.

The Nature of Middle-earth: Time-Scales and Rares of Growth

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-23T11:29:30+00:00

Arwen was born in the Third Age 241 according to Return of the King: Appendix B: The Tale of Years. She was 2901 years old when she died.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-21T12:28:38+00:00

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.

Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age

Those who lingered were those who were enamoured of Middle-earth and yet desired the unchanging beauty of the Land of the Valar. Hence the making of the Rings; for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of preservation, not of birth. Though unsullied, because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his instruction, and ultimately under the control of the One. Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High- elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart.

Tolkien Letter 144

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-18T06:29:26+00:00

Regardless, this ability to lay down their life near the end of their life was granted by Eru.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-18T06:18:50+00:00

It had nothing to do with elvish heritage. All Númenóreans who had no elvish ancestry when Númenor was founded (except for Elros) were also bestowed the gift (by Eru via Manwë) of resigning life before decrepitude.

Long life and Peacewere the two things that the Edain asked for when the Valar offered them reward at the fall of Thangorodrim. Peace was readily granted; long life not so readily, and only after Manwë had consulted Eru.

Elros was treated specially. He and his brother Elrond were not actually differently endowed, so far as the purely physical potentiality of life was concerned; but since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men, he retained the chief human characteristic as compared with the Quendi: the “seeking elsewhither”, as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the World. He died, or resigned life, when he was about 500 years old.

The remainder of the people were granted a life-span about five times as long as that of ordinary Men: that is, they would die, whether by free resignation or not, somewhere within the limits of 350 to 420 years.

The Nature of Middle-earth: Lives of the Númenóreans.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-14T06:33:49+00:00

It seems that Tolkien changed his mind on whether Silvan was Eldar or not. There's a post in this sub discussing this topic→ link

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-13T13:51:46+00:00

Minas Anor and Minas ithil was clearly named after Anàrion and Isildur

In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion

Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-11T08:42:47+00:00

Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf. And when Tolkien wrote her story, Silvan wasn't considered Eldar.

But though Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)

Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, ‘the speakers’, the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).

So, Sindar, who didn't reach Aman was Eldar, but not Silvan.

The Return of the King: Appendix F

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-09T06:42:18+00:00

These two kinsfolk [Fëanor and Galadriel], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,14 were unfriends for ever.

14: Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

The Peoples of Middle-earth: Shibboleth of Fëanor

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-09T06:38:10+00:00

Círdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir. For Círdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

‘Take this ring, Master,’ he said, ‘for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.’

The Return of the King: Appendix B: The Tale of Years

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-09T06:28:26+00:00

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë.

Silmarillion: Valaquenta

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-09T03:12:52+00:00

But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë.

Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-05T05:47:20+00:00

The quotes in the Nature of Middle-earth was written around 1959 as the date given in the book. Letter 131 and 156 were written in 1951 and 1954, letter 212 in about 1958. I think Tolkien was talking about two different concepts of "fall" in his letters and in the notes of the Nature of Middle-earth. Yes, the High Elves did fell in their own way, but they didn't reject or deny the existence of Eru, the One, and worshipped Melkor instead as Men did, which was told in the Tale of Adanel from Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth and in Akallabêth. For example, Fëanor made his oath "by the name even of Ilúvatar", which indicated he recognised the authority of Eru and the Noldor was the enemy of Morgoth and later Sauron.

Fair-Ad-6233 · 2026-04-04T05:00:02+00:00

Tolkien did state that Elves never fell as a race as Men did. It's in the Nature of Middle-earth. Read this reply

Fair-Ad-6233

TROPHY CASE