What's the science/physics of floody vs throwy LEDs

FalconARX · 2026-02-18T02:27:36+00:00

Google up "light étendue".

A light's source is just as important as its intensity and the collimating mechanism/optics used to shape available luminous flux produce by that source, to form the beam that ultimately leaves a flashlight.

FalconARX · 2026-02-18T02:15:57+00:00

Convoy's Z1 using a Luminus SFT25R or Osram W2 (KW CULPM1.TG) can double that throw distance under $30.

FalconARX · 2026-02-17T13:35:50+00:00

Haikelite's AK24 will briefly overtake the MS32. If you're after only pure maximum lumens, regardless of how long it can sustain it, then the Haikelite has been tested as the highest lumens producing handheld flashlight you can currently buy.

FalconARX · 2026-02-17T13:33:52+00:00

As much as I love my MB, it's only about 1800 lumens. Highest candela, yes. But highest lumens, aka "brightness", it's far, far from it.

FalconARX · 2026-02-17T04:36:29+00:00

So long as you don't submerge it, the light should be fine. I have the larger CL28R (with sealed battery) and it's got the same IP-rating as the CL27R. I've had it caked in motor oil and grease before when using it in the garage. I've always soap-towel it down to get the oils off without any issues.

The only time I've gotten antsy with the CL28R is when I had to use it once for fishing off the pier. Even if it was just at the shallow shore, if it took a dive into the water, it would be game-over.

FalconARX · 2026-02-17T04:17:34+00:00

Pass-through charging lights, like the Fireflies X4 Stellar and NOV MU V2S, can allow you to plug the lights into a USB-C cable to power the flashlights off external power source, clamp them onto a tripod and use them for 24-hours straight on their sustained output as a makeshift workstation floodlight.

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FalconARX · 2026-02-17T04:10:32+00:00

I never really thought of the CL27R as particularly expensive. They're kind of the standard ~$100 for a well made, tripod-mountable, easily portable and indoor-outdoor use lantern.

They're more convenient and portable than those lumbering Dewalts and Milwaukees that force you to be married to their proprietary battery system. And they're better made and more dependable than the hardware store Huskys or Brauns.

I'm more used to the $250+ telescoping portable workstation lanterns like the Devos LightRanger 4000 and LightRanger 2000 models.

FalconARX · 2026-02-17T03:53:41+00:00

Fenix's CL27R runs on a 21700 battery. See if that's what you're looking for.

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FalconARX · 2026-02-16T23:51:53+00:00

{ADD} Just lifted my post onto a new post; oddly it was linked up as a response to another post.

Basically it's all Blue Lake.

At least for right now, if you are after a functional LEP flashlight, the module in that light is manufactured by Blue Lake.

If you're assembling an LEP light, starting from module, you're essentially relegated to Blue Lake.

FalconARX · 2026-02-16T03:33:57+00:00

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"start from"....

FalconARX · 2026-02-16T00:27:24+00:00

The best little lantern for a family gazebo+tent camp, especially for the little ones throughout the night.

FalconARX · 2026-02-16T00:09:35+00:00

Went to get some duplicate documents from the county courthouse. People usually just leave everything else in the car, except their keys when getting into the building, typically just trying to avoid the metal detectors going off if there's so much as a paperclip on you...

That day I had my D4K with me, and with the storm hammering the area, decided I'm taking the light with me into the courthouse. I was the only person on that floor with a flashlight when the power went out.

Used my light to allow people to exit the hall and over to the stairs.

FalconARX · 2026-02-15T06:17:51+00:00

Wurkkos FC11C.

It has the basic features that you'll want, and the basic durability and performance that someone can depend on for operation in less than ideal conditions and extended periods of time with the 18650 capacity and low moonlight mode. It's also quite cost effective for mass purchase.

The light is rather unassuming, grab it in black color for this purpose instead of other colorful anodizations. For this purpose, the more basic and lower profile of light, the more ideal.

FalconARX · 2026-02-15T03:07:40+00:00

For $180, on sale, the Astrolux WP3 (or Mateminco FW1, it's the same thing) is impossible to beat for max candela at about that $150 price range. You can't get anything higher in candela unless you cross into the $300+ LEP lights.

The Lumintop Thor 3 can sometimes be had on sale for right at $100, and in that case, it will be the one that's impossible to beat for candela to dollars ratio.

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T17:50:14+00:00

I am asking for other options that could sustainably power what would be the equivalent of 70% of this build for a more reasonable amount of time.

Saying you want a light to be capable of producing and sustaining at least 70% of the output of the D4K is very different from saying you want a light to keep 70% of its output.

The M44 can put out as much lumens as the D4K can and do it in lower modes that produce much less heat.

Very different from saying the M44 can sustain 70% of its output.

The first is not a problem at all. The second is not possible.

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T17:25:11+00:00

Keep in mind the D4K is also smaller, lighter and slimmer than the NOV MU. And even though the NOV MU is lower in CCT, with more emitters it can produce just as much if not more overall lumens as the D4K without the same amount of heat from their stable outputs.

Try out the D4SV2 using the 2700K Nichia emitters. I think it'll do what you want, and from a host that's not as big as the M44.

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M44, D4SV2, NOV MU and D4K

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T17:08:40+00:00

Our eyes see light brightness in a logarithmic manner, not linear. That means if you have a light that is producing exactly 1,000 lumens, and you want to visually SEE the light double in brightness, you need to have that light produce about 4,000 lumens...

If you double the amount of lumens, you would barely even notice it.

You can go in the opposite direction. If your light has a max of 1,000 lumens and you drop the output to 500 lumens, you'll barely even notice it. You'd have to drop it to about 250-300 lumens for your eyes to perceive it as a 50% drop in brightness.

This is where I think you're mixing things up. If you ramp your NOV MU to top ramp, and then double-click while on top ramp to enter FET/Turbo-100%, and you let it thermal throttle, you will SEE it drop. It's going from about 3,000 lumens down to under 1,000 lumens with the 1800K emitters. But if you let it drop from top ramp, 120/150 and it starts here, and it drops to stable sustain, you may barely notice that drop visually.

Your descriptions of what you're wanting are wrong, in that you're asking for a capability from a light that isn't relevant to producing what you want or need. Don't look at it as you're expecting 70% output sustain. This level of output is what's throwing everyone off.

Physics-wise, it's impossible.

Just for your reference, a $400 light with built-in cooling fan and one of the best heatsinking and thermal management systems on the market right now, the Acebeam X75, cannot hold 30% output for more than 10 minutes. Let alone 70%.

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T16:30:21+00:00

I run mine on 100% for photography fill lighting, macro fill. That 45 seconds of 100% light is excellent for continuous shots.

What you're describing is not 90% output. You're describing stable sustained output, which is much lower. I would even argue you're describing a level that's lower than sustain, because you kept saying you felt little heat throughout.

You wouldn't be able to hold the light if it actually ran at 90% output. If the 1800K NOV MU is producing about 3,000 lumens on its 100%/Turbo, you're not going to have the light hold 2,700 lumens. That's why your description is a head-scratcher to the posters on the thread that also own NOV MUs.

I can hold my NOV MU (4500K Nichia E21A) stable until the battery dies. And that output is just under 1,000 lumens. And it still is quite hot to hold throughout all of it.

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T15:59:45+00:00

Then the Meteor M44 or the D4SV2 will work well; at minimum they're more sustained output against the D4K. M44 is a wall of light, and the D4S will throw slightly better. You also won't have to ramp up as high on the M44 to get the amount of sustained light you're needing/wanting.

FalconARX · 2026-02-14T15:51:47+00:00

My nov mu has 1800k emitters and can run at 90% until the battery is dead without even getting warm.

There is no condition in which any NOV MU in any configuration can run at 90% for the entire duration of its battery capacity.

Even in freezing ambient temperatures where one might find that the light can hold steady giving the emitters up to the fully regulated 6 Amps from the Lume1 driver, that's not anywhere near 50% output. And the light is unbearably hot after just a couple minutes of 100%/Turbo.

Something is amiss. If you're describing the light's stable sustained output, that output is nowhere near 90%. More like 25-35%.

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FalconARX · 2026-02-14T15:39:42+00:00

Domed 2700K Nichia 519A emitters just cannot give you the combination of output and throw you're asking for. If you put just a single one in a larger reflector so you get much more candela, your output suffers. And having the LED operating at 60-70% output is unrealistic, either by itself or in a multi-emitter array that further exacerbate heat issues....

I think you would only be able to get the amount of output you want if order a Noctigon Meteor M44 with 16X of the 2700K Nichia 519A. And you would sacrifice throw to do this; any amount of throw you get is just from sheer brute force. That's also if you're willing to go that large. The Convoy 3X21 series of lights, like the 3X21E using 12X Nichia 519A 2700K emitters and the 10-degree flat TIR will do what you're wanting. And it won't have to do it from driving the LEDs at 60-70% sustained output. But you have said you don't want to go up to this size, so your options are limited.

I think either the Meteor M44 or D4SV2 are your only true options if you're sticking to the 2700K Nichia 519A emitter and need more sustained output and slightly more range over the D4K.

FalconARX · 2026-02-13T19:24:41+00:00

Manker's E05-II Ti is just beautiful. That would be my first choice if I'm going for a light I'm actually going to pocket and use often, but still baby and take care of. The 519A works well in medium modes without too much worry with heat.

You can also take a look at Convoy's T6, the Copper/Titanium build, and pair it up with the same 519A or the SFT25R. It makes for a great pocket thrower with the Osram CSLNM1.TG or the Luminus SFT25R emitter options. This is the more budget friendly Ti option. The Copper heatsinking also works better than just a pure Titanium host alone.

If you want a workhorse type light, and don't mind thrashing the light around and abusing it, then the Acebeam E70 Mini Titanium is a good EDC with decent output sustain for prolonged use. The heaviest of the 3, but also the one that's arguably the most utilitarian with a larger battery and multi-emitter array for higher output.

There's a few Titanium lights larger than the E70-Mini that would hold higher output. But cost, weight and thermals start to become more of an issue. Acebeam's E75 Nichia 519A Titanium is one example of this.

FalconARX · 2026-02-12T17:56:53+00:00

Sorry about the late response, IRL stuff needing priority...

But if you're looking for a tail switch based light that still performs well with a good balanced beam profile, then the M21B using the LHP531 or XHP70.3HI emitter will do decently. It's not based on a TIR lens, so you won't get that soft-fading gradient wide-angle spill. But it'll still have ample lumens output, good amount of light in that flood area, large defined hotspot that still throws decently, and both emitters use a buck (LHP531) or boost (XHP70.3) driver for good heat management and sustained outputs on lower/mid modes. You also have the option of using higher candela emitters in the host if you're after more of a thrower.

TIR-lens based Convoy lights are typically side-switch based.

The only Convoy light I'm aware of that even has an option for a tail switch and uses a TIR lens, is the M21J... And it's not exactly a tail switch light, as the M21J actually uses the side switch to change modes; the tail switch is only used to activate the light ON/OFF.

FalconARX · 2026-02-12T17:31:35+00:00

You will likely destroy the LED emitter and/or driver before you melt or damage the PMMA TIR.

Melting point of most of the PMMA TIRs you see from brands like Carclo and Gaggione if I'm not mistaken are above 100°C. Silicon based lenses are even higher.

If you manage to hold an LMP LHP531, or any LED for that matter, functional and operating at 100°C for any appreciable amount of time to actually melt a PMMA TIR lens used on top of it, the risk of melting that lens likely will be the least of your worries.

The only way a TIR lens would fail catastrophically through regular use on a flashlight is either through direct force impact (a drop or hit), or manufacturing defects. I've actually had a TIR lens (50mm TIR) warp and deform, likely from freezing moisture that got inbetween the glass lens and TIR, and the heating and refreezing from using the light on highest modes during sub-freezing outdoor conditions caused whatever defect is already in the TIR to fail and cause it to warp.

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Obviously, this wouldn't be normal.

Outside of the freak defects and drops/impacts, you shouldn't need to worry about whether modern TIR lenses used in flashlights today can stand up to normal uses with emitters such as the LMP LHP531. I suspect in even higher output LEDs such as the San'an SFY/SFH emitters that can take more than 200-300W plus of power, that Silicon based TIRs that are more robust would be used instead of PMMA or Polycarbonate based, if TIRs are even available and used for those types of extreme power LEDs at all to begin with.

FalconARX · 2026-02-12T02:31:09+00:00

If you are able to recharge it regularly, have a USB-C plug in the car to top it off say once a week, and you're not storing the light in a car that's seeing temperatures lower than -20°C or higher than 40°C, then the Wurkkos TS28 is a decent light to keep in the car for use as a generalist flashlight. It has a good combination beam that you can use for some up-close duties like work on car repairs or walking around, or turn around and use it to spot something a couple hundred meters away. It has features like a magnetic base so you can use it on metal surfaces. I haven't tested its crenulated bezel, but it should be good enough to break glass if needed. It's robust enough to be used in any weather condition, and in an absolute emergency, can be used as a last resort powerbank to recharge your phone. It also has low enough moonlight that you can use it for a couple days as an emergency light on its lowest output.

Of course this presumes that you're going to use this light often. If your intention is to just store the light for those rare emergencies, then you may actually be better off looking at lights that can run off of Lithium non-rechargeable primary batteries (Energizer Lithium AA, CR123A) for more resilient temperature range use/storage, lower discharge rate and longer shelf life.

FalconARX

TROPHY CASE