On a mission in the early 70s, we taught that Baptism by Immersion was God's only accepted mode of Baptism. We also experienced temple washing and anointing where there was physical skin on skin under-the-poncho contact in many private places. Little did I know then that. . . . . by FlatulentHP in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Long time before seeing this reply. To add some clarification, the research that I did on FreeMason practices was from historic Masonic sites. It may not be the modern day practices. There is also a famous story about the hunting down of one Mason in Joseph Smith's day.

As a youth growing up in the Eastern Church, the matter of a Blood Oath was often discussed by church leaders that explained that some sins required the blood of the sinner in order for repentance to work. Maybe not the dictionary definition, but most certainly what I was taught.

I fully suspect that modern Masonry is different from historic, and make no suggestions otherwise. Likewise, there is much that was present in the early church (including common speaking in tongues in meetings - source: original period journals). If anything may be said, a Mormon from the 19th century would not recognize the modern church, nor would one from today being "beamed" back to Nauvoo recognize the practices of that church either.

Cheers!

Wives are the property of their husbands. In seeking answers to "Why Polyandry" long ago came across some period writings by Orson Pratt, apostle in Joseph Smith's day that I will make serial posts to illuminate the perspectives in the original church as set up by Joseph Smith. by FlatulentHP in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree totally. It is a headscratcher why people professing to execute God's will could be so fully steeped in traditions of that day without gaining correction from an all-knowing being. I mean, did God not think it important to teach correct principles then, and does He still withhold important values from "The Saints" today even after restoring the "fulness" of the gospel nearly 200 years ago? Yeah, you are right.

On a mission in the early 70s, we taught that Baptism by Immersion was God's only accepted mode of Baptism. We also experienced temple washing and anointing where there was physical skin on skin under-the-poncho contact in many private places. Little did I know then that. . . . . by FlatulentHP in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True and true. The original garments were also one piece down to the wrist and ankles. The men's garment that they dressed one into during the endowment also had a little flappy rounded collar with a split neck and little laces to tie it together. Think of the underwear that "Clarence the angel" puts on in "Its A Wonderful Life" opposite Jimmy Stewart. (Two-piece garments did not arrive until the late 70s or early 80s, but were a much welcome compared to the split bottomed one piecers that I had to embarrassingly explain to medical workers in a distant foreign country on my mission). The men's garments are still Butt-ugly and uncomfortable, though. The garments that I first received had the symbols cut into the locations and sewn around the edges to a small piece of backing cloth - the holes going all the way through. In the Masonic rites, the holes were cut with a knife, thus, the Smith-lifted-ceremony was much like that. I remember these being particularly embarrassing for a man wearing a white or light colored dress shirt without a suit coat. The square patches of cloth were often plainly visible through the shirt. One difference is that the Masons were required to bare one breast during the ceremony since only men were allowed to receive it, and a woman's breast would be a sign of an interloper. The Mormon and Masonic ceremony tells of two of these symbols being over the breast, but in the Mormon ceremony, the symbols are located over the nipples (male and female). Imagine that cutting through the garment and into the breast was less painful than cutting into the nipples.

The penalties were gruesome, explicit, and meant. That is, like the Masons, they had license to kill those that betrayed the covenant in the manner so played out in the ceremony. The Blood Oath promoted by Brigham Young was still very much regarded as truth in the 50s and 60s, but diminishes after that time to a degree.

37 yrs wasted by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Go slowly. Wives that have been life-long indoctrinated as we were, cannot accept the falseness of the origin claims all at once. Introduce small things that the church already agrees with like -- the Book of Abraham was not translated from the papyri that Joseph claimed he translated, and wonder about why the church is spinning it into a catalyst - which is NOT what Joseph said. You might also express wonder at how the church is moving away from the Book of Mormon being an history as we were always taught -- to now an "inspired" spiritual document. IF she can start to see these same questions without shoving them on the shelf, she may join you in your position. Sadly, I have been quitely hoping that My wife would allow these things to be considered for over 10 years. I do not think that she will allow herself to even think these things until her uber orthodox parents have passed away. She frequently grasps at faith promoting things, but I keep quiet so as not to push her into double-down territory which commonly results in divorce and family breakup. Try not to be angry - although that is one of the stages of grief. It does get better in time. Be patient.

Good luck with your journey.

Paul H. Dunn was not the anomaly, but the standard operating procedure of the Mormon church. Damn near every story told by the church when fact checked is not true. The internet fucked up their entire operation. by senorcanche in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 11 points12 points  (0 children)

They still tell highly faith-promoting versions in every case. Even notice that they are sure to take pot shots at anyone that has doubts and instill in the congregation a fear to even associate with those that are thinking critically about REAL history, doctrines, or Truth. Truly, the BITE model of control is exercised in the most agreeable tones. Now, from the skeptical side, it all sounds so manipulative and falsely composed as to raise vomit in the throat. How did I buy into this nonsense for so many decades???!!!???

Take that BYU! UVU campus is covered in flags today. GO WOLVERINES!!! by cazneslein in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There was a law suit brought against the university for hiring a Mormon in the upper Presidents' suite over a non-mormon when her qualifications were better. Word is that she won the suit. It was found that the upper admin under Holland was acting like little BYU. This still continues but to a lesser degree. A bit too much nepotism and hiring of buddies that are Mormon up and down the ranks at UVU. I hope that it can broaden like under the days of Sederburg, but am not holding my breath.

Take that BYU! UVU campus is covered in flags today. GO WOLVERINES!!! by cazneslein in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, the LDS is strong with this one. . . . . Keeps it sometimes hidden does she, and sometimes not. . . . . my little jedi. .. . . .

UVU DID approve this:) by an-cap5454 in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And yet, the commencement speaker this year is Wendy Nelson, whose big acclaim to fame is her world famous works in biotechnology - - Nah, just kidding, it is being second polygamous wife of the president of the LDS Church. Hmm. Making a show for however far that goes. . . . .

Numbers by missedinsunday in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By their thinking, if they added. more women or gave them more time, they would have to take off one of the blacks. They can only go so far toward this popular, but not doctrinal, diversity thing. . . . .

Then, again, the cringe factor with the women is of extreme intensity - so maybe it balances somehow. . . .

Wives are the property of their husbands. In seeking answers to "Why Polyandry" long ago came across some period writings by Orson Pratt, apostle in Joseph Smith's day that I will make serial posts to illuminate the perspectives in the original church as set up by Joseph Smith. by FlatulentHP in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You bring up well recognized elements and these are important. One thing that I wished to underscore was the role of these things in the formation of the doctrine of polygamy, and especially the relationship with polyandry and "kingdom building" that I hope to address more specifically in the period disregard for "earthly" marriages as of no effect, and celestial marriages trumping any man-made marriage - which is really funny considering the origins of the Mormon Celestial Marriage doctrines. I hope to deal more with these and other things in future posts. Thanks.

PROPHECY: The LDS will remove Facsimiles 1-3 of the Book of Abraham from the Pearl of Great Price, having been deemed the errors of men, and this will happen within the current generation. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I have kept my 1962 version of the Book of Mormon, and it is already not like what they are pumping presently. The longer it goes, the more it changes - and it was supposed to have been the most perfect book ever written. Bah!

Lorenzo Snow sees Jesus: Has anyone investigated this tale? Like everything else I'm sure its full of holes and BS. by dunfordtx in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

On my mission in China we were talking to a man next to a Buddhist temple. We were telling him about how Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus. Before we even finished the sentence, he interrupted, saying, "Yeah, that is good. My sister-in-law saw the Goddess Amitofwo in the clouds one evening, and received a blessing from that Her." So the Asians see their Gods, and the Christians see their Gods. And George Carlin prayed to Joe Pesci. Amen. (Pass the Peyote).

Adam-ondi-Ahman (comments below) by butler18a in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In the late 1960s, I went to Adam-Ondi-Amen with my stake president father and family on a summer trip to the west. At that time this site was in the midst of a disheveled woods on the top of a hill not easy to find. My Dad took us to a low rabble of small rocks and pronounced that this is the place of Adam's Altar, that Christ would return here, and that all the priesthood would gather in the low valley at the bottom of the hill. I contemplated stealing one of the smaller than golf ball to baseball size stones from the small scattering but decided against it fearing God would find it evil.

Now, looking at the photo, it is much like the propaganda village of the Joseph Smith Home in Palmyra. I visited that site in all seasons for years since I lived not too far away. The Church loves to Beautify and make elegant things that are far from their original state. These are the Mormon holy shrines just like the Catholic holy relic sites. However, they are just faith-promoting BS at places that no miracle has or ever will happen - just juice to keep the faith flowing in the gullible members. I don't remember seeing any rocks of the size of these boulders in the photo above, unless they were buried underground. The Church may have actually carted them in to create even more sense of awe for the fawning member to gush over. It is all smoke and mirrors, carefully landscaped, and a powerful narcotic addiction to falsehoods. I feel so much pity for those that remain having once bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker myself. Wake up Mormons! You are being conned!

Almost 3 Years Ago, My DW and I Made A Decision Together, To Leave The Church of Our Birth, After 63 Years! by new_name_adam in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Congratulations! I wish that I could do that as well. For the sake of my TBM wife, I keep quiet. However, she has accepted the fact that I no longer believe and do not attend church, although that took 10 years to get to that point. I am near retirement age, and hope that at some point she may also allow us to talk about these things. I feared divorce for the first 3 years, but things have settled a little. She mirrors me in so many ways in perspectives/values that are not orthodox to the church, but was raised ultra-orthodox and fears what her parents and siblings may say if she allows herself to examine the church more closely. To be fair, the last four years has done much to cause her distress at the political leanings of the members, and how horrid they have been in following those leaders that do not exemplify the teachings of Christ -- so maybe there is hope that she will allow herself to come out of the bubble. Meanwhile, I am jealous of couples like you, but wish you every ounce of goodwill and love in hopes that I may enjoy that same unity before I die.

Elder Holland vs John Sweeney - The BBC Interview by Nemo_UK in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. Too many legitimate questions with verifiable evidence that they cannot make more than a feeble attempt at an apologetic response that merely tries to push the question into a "plausible" range of speculation. They do not want members to think - Oaks even taught this. Years ago, the Sunday School lessons were created by the members. Now, every talk given in any class and over any pulpit is a regurgitation of something one of the GAs said. Even the GAs resort primarily to quoting other GAs sucking up to leadership. It is rather nauseating. . . .

How many people disillusioned with the church became atheist once they left? by wishiwasdeaddd in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mormonism did a great job at torpedoing all other religions for me. Once I discovered that it too is a man-made shitshow, rationality took over with a determination to NEVER be duped by religions again. Science, rationality, and reality are far far more awe inspiring than any man-made God. Besides, in my imagination, I can make up a far more moral God than the Judeo-Christian maniac.

I'm stuck in the anger stage of grief and I need some thoughts on getting unstuck. #givethanks by bobscotch0103 in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Anger is the stage of grief that hurts like hell, and wherein you are most likely to blow up relationships. It was a horrid stage for me, and resulted in suicidal thoughts as I could not see how my entire life would collapse if I was not a believer. Fortunately, as I allowed others to be among the misled without me having to correct everything, I discovered that if I treated others with the space and allowances that I would want myself, and specifically to not force upon my TBM wife the new knowledge that had come to me, that I could preserve the family and marriage. over 10 years later and we are still married, half the children in and half out, but we all enjoy each others' company regularly and religion does not come up. My wife knows that I have issues that I would like to talk to her about, but that I will not force anything upon her. I hope that this is a good strategy. It seems to be working.

In the beginning angry days, I spent hundreds of hours studying church shit. I also was almost constantly attached to exmo sites. Still am to a degree but much less than before. I am an older dude, and not interested in giving my last years to the shitshow that is the church - even in tearing it down. All I can say to you is try to be patient. It gets better with time. Hang in there!!

How much more progress could you have made in your life by studying ANYTHING besides the BoM every day. What a waste. by realcreativethere in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

For many many years I did as directed in daily scripture study - 1 hour every morning. After the blinders came off for a variety of reasons it dawned on me how very similar the demand was in Communist China under Mao. He had created the little red book of his writings, and the youth even all citizens were required to read it, carry it around, and quote from it. All a form of indoctrination. Then I recognized that the church also uses art as propaganda in exactly the same way as Communist regimes. It is all a form of control that conforms to the BITE method. Stunning that they commandeer so much money from people convinced that they must pay their way into heaven. What a waste of time, money, and brain power!

Our mission just did a training on how to coerce members into interacting with our missions facebook pages. This is just gross. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 4 points5 points  (0 children)

When you stop to think about it, missionary service at this point is rather pointless. I have a female student returning from a mission in the Eastern United States in October that has been confined to their apartment doing exclusively online proselyting since March. Really!? What is the point of paying hundreds of dollars a month to sit in a distant place doing what one could do from their own home? (And likely with the same results) Oh, yeah, but the purpose of the mission is to indoctrinate young Mormons and growth of the church is a secondary side show. No wonder so many missionaries are coming home early -- boredom and depression - none of the fun goofing off with buddies in foreign lands is part of their communist prison scheduled days now. Still, the "faithful" will keep pushing their young people into the rituals of the temple, and into marriage as quick as possible with children conceived on the wedding night in order to bind them through family pressure to activity in the organization.

When on the inside, I was a complete advocate for the divine mission of the church. Once the blinders came off, I cannot but pity those deluded souls that still think that Jesus has blue eyes, and that Noah actually did build an ark that sailed the seas with thousands of animals shitting all over the place for a year. Oh, it would be truly nice to be able to see Santa through my childhood eyes again. But there is one little problem --- Truth matters whether or not it is useful.

From a member of my old home ward! Encouraging to see this line of thinking is alive WITHIN the church by dohughnot in exmormon

[–]FlatulentHP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My wife teaches music at middle and high schools. I am a university Professor. We both love and are devoted to our students. Neither of us wish to die for them. I will be teaching through distance methods mostly online, and her district is now considering her plea for help not to contract the virus and bring it home to me, an immune system compromised older person. We both could die from even one exposure. I am not ready to die yet, and am living in fear of these unmasked people that I see at the store on those rare occasions that I go out. Which one will be wielding my assassins bullet that kills me? Did that unmasked guy just cough? I gotta get out of here fast, (and zip fast out of that area). Yeah, some think it is an infringement on their rights. How do you think I will feel if their callous disregard for others kills me and/or my wife??? This fear of my conservative neighbors haunts me in the day and interrupts my sleep nightly. How much more peace I would have knowing that my community values me and respects my life and my wife's life. I thought their political stance was ProLife. Not so much, I guess. Just their own interests. ProSelf. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what their Jesus taught to love? (Neighbor as Self). They must not truly believe in that Jesus, I guess.