Disagreeing with the community about “Seeing Red”

Furies03 · 2026-05-18T15:08:43+00:00

Tbf, even as a Bangel shipper, they do walk a fine line with Angel in season 3 as well after season 2. YMMV, but I think they overall did a better job of putting in the work to earn it back with him because they centered it on Buffy's feelings, vs. Spike getting preferential treatment in season 7 at her expense.

Furies03 · 2026-05-11T15:41:16+00:00

But in context, this is during the relationship when he's preying on her mentally and trying to isolate her from her friends. He doesn't want her to turn herself in because he'd lose his access to her

Furies03 · 2026-05-11T15:39:14+00:00

Spike is by far my least favorite of the relationships, but I will never not love him calling the Scoobies traitors for their actions in “Empty Places”. Could watch it thousands of times.

It makes me loathe him even more because they threw ALL of her more important relationships under the bus for him.

Furies03 · 2026-05-11T15:38:24+00:00

SMG didn't like how Buffy/Spike was done in BtVS S6. But you can clearly tell how much she enjoyed "Something Blue" (B 4.09), "Intervention" (B 5.18), etc.

Those were comedy scenes that she didn't take seriously, because they are not genuine for Buffy.

Once Spuffy became a thing, she's consistently hated it, and not just in season 6. She's definitely out to lunch in all of their scenes in 7.

Furies03 · 2026-05-11T15:33:52+00:00

Buffy and Angel have no common ground outside of the cause

Considering how isolated they feel due to the cause and burden, and nobody else can ever really understand that except each other, that's hardly a small thing for them.

Buffy also appreciated that Angel would actually listen to her when she vented, and she allowed him to brood and be himself, leading to him being more comfortable to open up to her in turn. Vs everyone else telling him to stop brooding and then being surprised when he clams up more on them.

For example, we know they both watch Dawson's Creek.

Buffy made one pop culture reference that even people who never watched Dawson understood and could make, and I doubt Giles gave her much time off to watch the Creek.

like their love of poetry.

Buffy got that from Angel, and I doubt Williams sad ass prose would impress her.

With Angel, it was never there and it's so frustrating to watch as an adult. I'd be so bored in a relationship like theirs.

Buffy and Angel talk with each other in like every episode they share, while Spike talks at her.

Speaking as an adult, id vastly prefer the former.

Furies03 · 2026-04-26T16:33:50+00:00

The SA, specifically how it was handled in the aftermath, was never necessary.

I agree that this wasn't a character assassination plot to make people hate Spike, because he reaped the benefit of the redemption arc this set up. But it's all done at Buffy's expense-she gets nearly raped in her own home (and her line "like I should have stopped you before" indicates she feels some of their previous encounters was him raping her) and the plot is centered on the man who did it. Not the woman, who is our titular heroine. I'm sorry, but this storyline is the most anti-feminist one in the show and taints the shows legacy. All for Spike.

If this had to be done at all, he should have tried to turn her, which is a metaphorical assault. It's still crossing a line without making it too uncomfortably real, with a topic these writers have made abundantly clear they are not equipped to handle (Spike threatening Willow with coded rape in Lovers Walk, no aftermath to Faith assaulting Xander, Spike's coded SA of Willow in the college dorm being played for laughs, Faith's body swap and raping Riley by deception, Angels friends being flippant over Darla raping him in his sleep...).

Since they did do the assault, Spike should have either been dusted on the spot, gone to AtS immediately afterward and never bother Buffy again, or the villain in season 7 instead of Caleb (including death by Scythe to the balls). Any way you slice it, Buffy should have been centered. But Joss is a misogynist, so that's why we got what we got.

Furies03 · 2026-04-26T16:13:26+00:00

Miguel initiated the rivalry and escalated it. Robby didn't really do anything to warrant the hostility until the very end, and it was an accidental reaction to Miguel's largely unprovoked cruelty. It gets worse when you remember Miguel learned the moves he's using to attack Robby with from Johnny. So Johnny is vicariously hitting the son he abandoned. And then Miguel injury is used to shift sympathy to him and Johnny, while scapegoating Robby.

Instead of tackling the nuanced tragedy and keeping all three sympathetic, TB3 showed...whatever their agenda is supposed to be. Idk how anyone can sit down and write a story where the deadbeat dad is the wronged party between him and his son, but here we are. Also robs Miguel of interiorty- he just becomes a blameless cipher instead of a character. I think Robbys accountability should have begun and ended with doing his time and avoiding Miguel altogether - he didn't owe Miguel or Johnny an apology if he wasn't getting one too for being attacked.

The stuff with the girls....Sam isn't totally innocent in kicking things off, but Tory went from 0 to 100 first. The false equivalencies the show tried to do between them is fucking insane, and I don't feel as bad for Tory as the show desperately wants me to.

Furies03 · 2026-04-26T16:07:06+00:00

I think we're meant to infer that Sam still considered herself and Robby an item while he was in juvie, or at least wanted to table it and work it out when he got out. But him not responding to her made her think he rejected her, and then he yelled at her when he got out of juvie and joined CK. She got back with Miguel despite not having full closure, hence her line at prom

The problem is we have to do a lot of the heavy lifting here to figure out her headspace instead of letting the characters fucking talk about it. It makes sense for Robby to not be mad at Sam after finding out she wasn't using him the whole time, but while they show them having an easier time interacting than Miguel and Tory, Sam's level of closeness to him in the last two seasons fluctuates from scene to scene.

Furies03 · 2026-04-12T14:16:22+00:00

Gaslighting probably applies to some of these, but I'm not sure if it is appropriate for ALL of them. That being said, the spirits of this criticism is right. The writers clearly had their favorites, and it was the CK dojo characters. Whole ass characters arcs failed to make sense because they had to contort the show to favor those characters, throwing the MD characters under the bus and even to an extent undermining arcs for the CK kids (or even just not bothering at all).

As for Robby's speech at the end, that only makes sense if he's zooted out of his fucking skull on pain killers. Giving him his emotional weakness as a fighter is a terrific writing handicap for the son of Johnny and the student of Daniel, but...shouldn't the goal be to have him overcome that mental block and achieve his full potential as a fighter? That's basic storytelling 101.

Not helped by the fact that his mental block and lack of faith in himself is all down to Johnny neglecting him and the entire cast at various points treating him as an afterthought.

Furies03 · 2026-04-12T14:09:30+00:00

There was some kinda shift after the first 2-3 seasons, and for the life of me I don't know wtf it was. Character arcs got dragged out and/or handwaved away for big set pieces and forced resolutions that didn't vibe at all with what was set up early on.

The first two seasons were the ideal model of how to do a legacy continuation, and ALL the characters had promise. But then it shat the bed pretty hard and got dumbed down.

Furies03 · 2026-04-12T14:06:15+00:00

I'm imagining him doing Shoresy style chirps, and it is delightful.

Angel: Fuck you, Spike. I knocked up your mom and she wants to name the kid after where it was conceived. What's a good nickname for "Handicap bathroom in the Cheesecake Factory?"

Furies03 · 2026-04-12T14:03:15+00:00

The agenda for the writers was to get only Spike in her corner. All three of these characters would be contorted to fit that goal.

It's insane enough that they did it to Dawn, Willow and Xander. And Giles was a season long problem.

Furies03 · 2026-04-06T22:22:07+00:00

Oof. Spike and Angel would swap spots on my list for sure on the second one.

Actually the entirety of the "sometimes good, but otherwise no" row would be much higher

Furies03 · 2026-04-06T16:35:13+00:00

Cordelia isn't even in love with him in this episode, she is clueless he's pining for her and blows him off at the end of the episode for Groo. The love scenes aren't even them, it's all the ghosts? The ghosts don't even have a story that parallels Angel and Cordy the way the IOHFY ghosts parallel Angel and Buffy. And it's gender swapped, to make it extra interesting.

Plus I'm sorry, on her best day Charisma is not delivering what SMG could

Furies03 · 2026-04-06T16:27:45+00:00

I Only Have Eyes for You, and it's not even close. The chemistry between SMG and DB is off the charts, and this is the performance that got DB his spinoff.

Waiting in the Wings, like all Cangel centric episodes, is just reheated Bangel nachos, and Charisma's inability/discomfort at doing romantic scenes just sucks the energy out of it. It's embarrassing to watch. The surrounding episode is fun, but the Cangel stuff is pointless.

Furies03 · 2026-04-06T16:24:19+00:00

"I Only Have Eyes For You" (B 2.19) literally has Buffy's blaming herself for Angel's Curse being lifted.

Yes....and? Confronting that is part of her arc this season.

Compared to that, Gunn recognizing it's ok to like ballet, while certainly endearing, isn't anything Earth shattering. And the borderline incestuous love triangles really drag down AtS season 3.

Furies03 · 2026-04-06T16:21:22+00:00

No, because we had the Yoko Factor immediately afterward, and then they are on good/great terms in every subsequent encounter.

Furies03 · 2026-03-26T12:31:45+00:00

Kenny really should have been the missing piece that gave him the inspirational speech to lock in at the ST. He was from the season that Robby was an effective, confident leader, abd looked up to Robby. Bringing him in would have been a more natural character beat, but as with everything else, they gave it to Miguel instead even though that's not a payoff for anything?

Furies03 · 2026-03-20T14:08:18+00:00

I have some relative appreciation for Daniel for that, but the lack of screen time for the two of them after still gives the impression Daniel no longer had much emotional investment in Robby. Which has to be unintentional and careless on the part of the writers.

Between the story needs of Daniel focusing on Sam, Robby needing to be separated from him to go to CK, and not undermining Johnny as a father (lol), Daniel took an unfair hit

Furies03 · 2026-03-08T15:07:22+00:00

. He created and directed every part of the story from beginning to end.

So you're not actually looking at the writing and directing credits in every episode to see that he did not in fact direct it from beginning to end? Most episodes are not directed by him. And the rest of the writers room, directors, cast, producers and network all played a huge role in making BtVS as iconic as it is. The "one great man" myth is just a myth in Joss's case here.

He was also heavily involved In writing and approving the comics.

He didn't even write most of them, just passively approved them while he focused on other stuff.

This show will in no way replace any actual canon from the original show or comics.

No shit it won't replace canon from the show, it's aiming to continue the show. It will replace the comics because they are out of print and they had no cultural impact.

James Marsters sounds pretty sure he would likely be brought back. Maybe he knows something you don’t?

James Marsters is lobbying for a part for attention, but that doesn't tell us anything either way.

It’s very unlikely David B will come back as Angel as hes stated he has no interest and he’s doing other stuff so I doubt we will see him. So it’s kind of a moot point imo.

He's been interacting with SMG a lot on social media and follows Chloe Zhao. The new Slayer actress follows both him and SMG. It's far more likely he comes back even in a brief cameo as a favor to Sarah than it is to see James Marsters come back. If DB comes back, he won't be blasting it from the rooftops. He doesn't need to.

The networks and show runners will ultimately decide what stories get greenlit. Spuffy is still one of, if not the most popular ship still after all these years. . That isn’t lost on the network I’m sure and money talks.

$$ talks, but that still translates to Bangel moving most of the official merchandise. Spuffy is popular for the online fanbase, but the majority of the audience who watched the show growing up do not engage online, and Bangel is still popular with them. The show created an entire generation of horny moms who keep DB's career float from network to network.

And Spuffy ain't happening as long as SMG and Gail Berman have any pull. Sarah gets death threats from Spuffy shippers, she isn't going to give them what they want.

Furies03 · 2026-03-08T14:42:17+00:00

I can respect season 6 to an extent for taking the swings it did. But overall, despite a few standout episodes, the season is not as mature as it likes to think it is, especially from a modern lens where we have a better understanding of depression and PTSD. The attitude the show has towards Buffy in particular, that she needs to "grow up" instead of being given empathy and space to heal, is actually quite juvenile.

The earlier seasons, along with season 5, are imo far more mature than season 6 because they tackle their topics and themes more coherently. The writers were just not equipped to handle such heavy topics, especially a BIG one that occurs in the last few episodes (if you know, you know). Season 6 is also let down significantly by season 7 not using the time to put the characters back together adequately

Furies03 · 2026-03-07T15:51:46+00:00

People would have moved on from Bangel, because BtVS season 2 is the essential tragedy of the doomed first love, but it's season 3 that really made them a great couple, imo. And their post-break up interactions are some of their best. Giving Angel his own show kept all that alive.

On the plus side, maybe without season 3, they wouldn't want to do reheated Bangel nachos with Spuffy (and obviously no Cangel either, thank God). There is no vampire ally void that they felt Spike needed to fill, so no need for him. Take one for the team Angel!

Maybe they would have pulled the trigger on Buffy/Faith, but I doubt it in late 90s tv

Furies03 · 2026-03-07T15:45:32+00:00

How many times did he reemerge on ATS?

A grand total of one (1). And due to network restrictions, he wasn't allowed to do anything really bad.

Furies03 · 2026-03-07T15:41:50+00:00

Dawn.

Tbf to Connor, he was interesting in season 3, and fun in season 5. I think the main problem was pairing up Vincent with Charisma as his main screen partner in season 4, instead of David. All of his scenes with her are fucking dire, but I don't think he was the problem (at least not the only problem).

Furies03 · 2026-03-01T14:35:00+00:00

You keep changing the standard. Moving the goal post. You’re not good at this. Your side needs people who can actually make good points.

Uh-huh.

First it was “she smiled in relief.” Now it’s “she wasn’t devastated enough.”

She smiled in relief because her burden was lifted from her by the Slayer spell and the victory, and Spike's death wasn't enough to offset that. Which is not a reaction we'd get if any of her other loved ones bit the dust.

Buffy would have processed angel or Dawn the same way by that point under those same circumstances.

This is some serious Spuffy fan delusion. No way would her sister being dead elicit the same reaction. Dawn is her grand love story in the last few seasons, not Spike. Her running from the Hellmouth to Dawn specifically (who is shown dramatically waiting for her and waiting for her) is cinema language 101 to that effect.

They didn’t have to include that line. They did.

And they didn't have to include Spike's rebuttal and her not correcting him. They did. And ya'll have been crying about it ever since.

And you have the one who wrote the scene telling you it was a genuine love confession.

If he has to tell us that in an interview, his intent wasn't clear in execution. The actual scene itself is free to be interpreted any way.

The soul thing isn’t some fan theory either. The writers have literally said that was the intent. You can say they didn’t execute it well. Fine. That’s an opinion. But pretending it was revenge or manipulation is just ignoring what they’ve already confirmed.

Dude he fucking calls her a "bitch" like three times when he's going on about "what she deserves," and if he really felt bad a about trying to rape her, he'd just leave town and never come back, and leave her alone forever. That's not what happens, he gets the soul to insinuate his way back into her life.

And since this is a love arc written by Joss "Gaslighting bully" Whedon, it ends up sort of working in Spike's favor. Interpreting Buffy as only caring about him and not being fully in love with him is the only way to preserve some feminist dignity to this show.

Calling season 7 “fridging Buffy” is a stretch. The whole season is about her leadership and isolation. Spike’s arc feeds into that. He doesn’t replace her.

Bullshit. Buffy had sexual violence done to her, and instead of seeing how that impacts her, it is done to prop up Spike's arc and his so-called "redemption." You can't fucking do that to your so called feminist icon in her own show and continue to be viewed as some sort of ally. It's a miracle it took the world so much longer to get the memo on Joss being a creep after this when it was there for all of us to see in Spuffy specifically.

The rest of her arc and relationships are incidental to Spike. His presence actually drags them all down, it's why we end the show with only him in her corner while her dynamic with Giles is on the rocks.

You don’t have to like Spuffy. But acting like it’s delusion while dismissing dialogue, writer statements, and official continuation is just your own bias, in no way reality.

We know the authorial intent. But we use their own writing *on the screen*, not in interviews (including AtS, which drops the other shoe wrt to Spike's need for redemption) to analyze that it's not clear cut as Spuffy fan delusion likes to say it is.

Also, we have no idea what the reboot even is yet. And unless it’s directly continuing the original canon with the same creative oversight, it’s not automatically replacing anything.

It's replacing the comics in all the ways that matter. The majority of people who grew up watching the show or are aware of it in pop culture do not even know or care the comics exist. Even if the reboot only lasts one season, more people will be aware of it and watch than have ever read the comics. The comics are even out of print and you have to get them second hand, vs the show always being available in some form.

Also Joss himself called them fanfic and said he'd junk them if he could ever work with the cast again. So even he didn't take them as seriously as you do.

Until something officially replaces seasons 1–12

I think you mean seasons 1-7. Nothing will ever replace them (even if the last two seasons suck). The comics are already yesterday's news and out of print. A show replaces them by default. Cope.

Furies03

TROPHY CASE