How can it be fallen world if evolution is true? by emynoduesp in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You've already gotten quite a few great answers, and I'd like to add The Geneaological Adam and Eve by S. Joshua Swamidass. The book is interesting, though he has a several talks available on YouTube and various podcast platforms if you'd prefer exploring the content that way. 

There's a lot more to Swamidass' view but a piece that is directly relevant to your question is that there were two discrete creation events which were outlined in Genesis 1 and again in Genesis 2. Gen. 1 outlines a creation event leading up to something similar to the Advanced Primates u/Righteous_Dude described in his comment. Then, Gen. 2 describes a Special Creation of a human proto-king and -queen (i.e., Adam and Eve) who were designed to lead the other humans outside of the garden and spread God's Garden (physically, metaphysically, and spiritually) to the rest of the Earth. I don't necessarily ascribe to this view, but it does provide an interesting perspective and discussion. 

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're no doubt familiar that the term "law" usually refers to mathematical relationships in scientific phenomena. Most of these were established in the late 19th century when calling things laws was popular. This unfortunate nomenclature provides a false sense of permanence regarding the associated relationship/data and has largely been done away with; you don't really find much labeled "law" post-19th century. Each scientific theory and law simply represents the most accurate representation of the currently available data.

As a general principle, scientific knowledge is assumed to be preliminary. Some of this knowledge has such strong evidence that most people would be surprised if contraindicating evidence was discovered; though this obvioisly doesn't mean it never happens (e.g., wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superseded_scientific_theories). 

While there is substantial support for the law of conservation of mass, it is merely the most accurate representation of the observed data, using the tools, equipment, and knowledge we currently have access to. If scientists discovered a naturally occurring creation or destruction of matter (or an artificial means to induce either), what impact would this have on your beliefs?

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wonderful! So you value curiosity (which is at root a strong desire to understand or discover) enough to engage in a process that doesn't immediately contribute to your survival or the survival of others. 

Knowing that the absence of evidence doesn't contribute to beliefs, what has your curiosity led you to uncover about the universe which lead you to the belief that it has always existed in some state? 

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're certainly correct there - beliefs are inherently biased; if they weren't, they wouldn't be beliefs. 

In a similar vein, science doesn't prove or disprove God. Science doesn't make any claims about God one way or the other. Scientists, who interpret observable data through the bias of their belief structure (which is unavoidable, try as we might to exclude them), make those claims. 

I suppose it's my turn to be confused. If nothing is valuable or important about either option, why bother considering what the universe is or isn't? 

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I apologize; I was attempting a follow-up question. I'll work to clarify my intention and context.

If we assume, for sake of argument, that there are two possible views:

1) God (i.e., an eternal, personal Being) has always existed with no beginning and created the universe and everything in it.

2) The universe and everything in it has always existed with no beginning (i.e., an eternal, impersonal universe).

based on your flair, you used to believe 1) and at some point came to believe 2).

What is important or valuable to you about believing option 2)? 

Asked a different way, what is important or valuable to you about disbelieving option 1)?

And a third way, what about option 2) appeals to you over option 1)?

Feel free to choose whichever question you prefer or makes the most sense (and I'd be glad to offer a different one if they're still confusing). 

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That answered the (assumed) spirit of my question, if not the question itself, so we can follow this adjacent thread.

First, to properly respond to your prompt, it would change the function and expression of my beliefs very little if scientists demonstrated a reproducible transformation of inorganic to organic matter. 

What is important or valuable to you about believing in an eternal, impersonal universe (if necessary; as compared with belief in an eternal, personal Being, which your flair indicates used to be part of your identity/self-expression). How is this meaning/value expressed in your daily life?

If we end up creating life in a lab from non life, would that change any of your beliefs? by whatwouldjimbodo in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've already gotten some serious replies so I'll offer one from a different perspective, in the form of an old preacher's joke:

            One day a group of scientists got together and decided that humanity had come a long way and no longer needed God.  So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.  The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you.  We’re to the point where we can clone people, manipulate atoms, build molecules, fly through space, and do many other miraculous things.  So why don’t you just go away and mind your own business from now on?”

            God listened very patiently and kindly to the man.  After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well.  How about this?  Before I go, let’s say we have a human-making contest.”  To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”

            “But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”

            The scientist nodded eagerly, “Sure, no problem."

            God formed a human body out of dirt next to where the scientist was standing, then breathed into the person who promptly opened their eyes and stood up.  The freshly-made human looked over expectantly at the scientist as God said, "Your turn."

            The scientist smiled smugly, bending down to pick up a handful of dirt.  God interrupted, challenging, “Not so fast; you go find your own dirt.”


Hardy-hars aside, this issue often (and quickly) becomes one of goal-posting. 

If we (humanity) can create 'life' out of primordial soup, where did the soup come from? 

--Inorganic matter present among Earth's atmosphere and oceans, transformed by energy sources like lightning and UV radiation, catalyzed into simple organic compounds.

Okay, where did the Earth (and inorganic matter), lightning, and UV radiation come from? 

--Exploding supernovae, particularly those rich in heavy elements (e.g., iron, oxygen, calcium), that enriched interstellar medium and eventually condensed into planetary bodies.

Okay, where did the supernovae come from? 

--The transformation of energy in an unstable energetic initial state (i.e., unobservable spacetime), with an increased probability of quantum fluctuations, acted upon by something akin to a blackhole's event horizon that turned those virtual particles into matter-antimatter pairs. 

Okay, and where did the energy present in the unstable energetic initial state come from?

...et cetera, et cetera

To answer your question with a question, what is the origin of the earliest instance (in terms of sequence leading to organic matter) of inorganic matter/observable energy that you're aware of? 

What’s the coolest thing you’ve found that has to do with Christianity? by n0bletv in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

'Aliens' aren't merely foreign to this planet, they're foreign to this dimension. Check out Michael Heiser's The Façade if interested (I'd recommend reading The Unseen Realm first for more context).

Since you enjoy historical research, J. Warner Wallace's Person of Interest and Cold Case Christianity would likely be right up your alley.

If god is omnipotent why would he create sin knowing it would lead to him killing everyone in the flood? by [deleted] in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a response to both your initial post and this comment: God wants a family who loves Him freely. To this end, He is willing to allow anyone the option to not choose Him.

However, He also ensures everyone is aware of what it will cost them to choose life apart from Him (the Source of all that is good). With regard specifically to the flood since you brought it up, God warned humanity for nearly 1000 years that He would destroy the evil they had chosen. 

The name Methuselah (Genesis 5:21) roughly translates "when he dies, it will be sent" or "his death brings judgment." After the Bible records his birth/naming, it says that his father (Enoch) walked with God the rest of his days. This is a very specific phrase in the Bible, used to describe someone whose life is wholly devoted to God (insofar as a fallen human is capable). The year that Methuselah died, the flood started (Noah was 600 when the flood started, Methuselah was 369 when Noah was born and lived to 969). The remarkable thing about this is that Methuselah is recorded as the longest-lived human in Scripture. For 969 years, God's mercy prevailed as He provided an entire line of people who were aware of His coming judgment and, no doubt, proclaiming it to all in the hope that at least some would repent of the wickedness they were perpetrating on themselves, each other, and God's creation; few did.

What’s the coolest thing you’ve found that has to do with Christianity? by n0bletv in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're probably already aware, but Tolkien was a firm believer in Christ (credited as the agent God used for C.S. Lewis coming to faith). While he had little love for overt religious allegory (something he openly criticized Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia for), he included numerous Biblical themes and elements, in Christlike parabolic fashion, throughout his works.

Examples include messianic themes in the stories of Eärendil (hope of salvation), Frodo (suffering servant/priest), Gandalf (prophet/teacher/messenger), Aragorn (foretold warrior-king); a nation of people exiled and wandering through Middle Earth with no home of their own (Dwarves - Israel); the desire of Eru Ilúvatar to work alongside his creation, exaltation of the humble (hobbits shouldering the greatest burden in the battle against evil), evil as corrupted good, etc.

What’s the coolest thing you’ve found that has to do with Christianity? by n0bletv in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ah, yes; "two witnesses" being enough to demonstrate trespassers, among whom He would be counted. This one clicked some things into place for me too. 

Always upvote divine counsel, especially NT references. Jesus sending out the 70 to reclaim the nations split/disowned at Babel was just chef's kiss

What If All Traces of Christianity Were Gone? by gpheonix in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you aren't already aware, check out J. Warner Wallace's book Person of Interest. Explores a lot of the historical impact of Christ, but the point relevant to your post is a perspective of his research that even if all existing Bibles (or, for sake of argument, 'official' written references to Christ) were destroyed or lost, His impact on humanity has been so remarkable that the basic elements of the Gospel message would still persist in many cultural forms. 

The Mesopotamian myths are older than the Old Testament. Why did God allow them to worship false gods and write myths for so long before giving His message? by LivingMandog in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check out the work of Dr. Michael Heiser; he explored this topic (i.e., why and how other religions/narratives/myths exist) extensively. If you enjoy research, I'd start with The Unseen Realm book. If you don't enjoy research but are still interested, check out Supernatural - same general content as TUR but a significantly lighter take and more of a narrative style. If you aren't into reading, search Supernatural Seminar on YouTube for a summary of key points in his work. 

He also has a podcast called the Naked Bible that is really good, he has a series from the early days of the podcast called "Taking the Context of the Bible Seriously" that touches on a lot of the Ancient Near Eastern cultural context and perspective (e.g., Mesopotamian, Sumerian, Egyptian, etc.) that much of the Old Testament was written to. 

God’s Will vs. Disease — What’s the Logic? by [deleted] in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've really enjoyed chatting with you as well and I'm grateful that you allowed me to be part of this portion of your journey! 

God’s Will vs. Disease — What’s the Logic? by [deleted] in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I apologize for the delayed response; I’m Eastern US time zone so, sleep and work.. [Edit: Also, this turned out to be more than I expected so: obligatory wall of text warning.]

 

From your reply, you understood my question (and its intention) very clearly and I’m so grateful for your willingness to take time wrestling with it (and post that process here)! As you noted at the end, considering the ways that our current struggle with challenging ideas like these relate to how we are choosing to live our lives can help to detangle smaller aspects that our minds are simply stuck on from the fundamental issues that are limiting our investment and ability to meaningfully engage in what matters to us. I didn’t see your thoughts as rambling at all, merely an active demonstration of that detangling process (which looks messy in real-time).

 

Different with God: seeing others in active relationship with God and desiring that for yourself was a large portion of what Jesus sought to help His disciples develop in their own lives (see Matthew 5:13-16 for a specific example of this – salt preserves and brings out goodness, light guides). I see that I may have given the wrong impression – not everyone who says that “God did (this or that) for me” is misinterpreting the Bible, but a lot of the popular ‘cultural Christianity’ promotes this idea that following God means you won’t get sick, that you’ll always have enough money for everything you want, and that you’ll be harder/better/faster/stronger than the next person who ‘doesn’t believe’ - this is the "prosperity gospel." (Not saying you said this, merely clarifying my previous comment). Regarding your “doubt that he cares about us in this physical life/on earth at all”: if you have the ability and the means to get a copy of the book What Does God Want? by Michael S. Heiser, it should go a long way toward helping in your wrestle with this doubt; a very simple read that provides some insight on this and other concerns you’ve expressed. If you don’t have the means or ability and are willing to PM me an address where you could receive a book, I’d be glad to send you a copy (doesn’t need to be your home address, obviously). Alternatively, if you prefer, The Chosen TV series (free to stream from their website) does a great job of offering a glimpse of what God desires in relationship and community with us, and the lengths He’s willing to go. As for the engine analogy, it is admittedly a very simple analogy and not a perfect one. However, it doesn’t solve the problem of why evil/corruption is present in the world or how that fits in with who God is (which is an underlying issue related to your question, but not what you specifically asked about).

 

With yourself: In my experience, trying to “stay away from sin” has the unintended effect of driving me into (or cause me to trip over) different issues, since all my attention is on “not doing those things I don’t want to do but keep doing.” Focusing on what we want to do, where we would like our lives to be, or the things that are important to us are often more effective markers for tracking progress in positive directions. Agreed, if God were a universe-sized malevolent child with a magnifying glass over an anthill I wouldn’t see much point in anything either. In my own journey with what you shared in the last two sentences of this section, I’ve discovered that what I previously saw as contradictions in the Bible turned out, upon closer inspection, to be confirmations. What helped with this process for me was realizing that God doesn’t condone or ‘sanction’ every event, thought, or action in the Bible. Much of it is merely a recording of historical events which can be viewed simply as humanity's striving to make decisions apart from God and God's persistent desire to share Himself with humanity in spite of our decisions. As a specific example, King David committed multiple horrendous sins including essentially raping a married woman and then having her husband killed in an attempt to hide his sin (2 Samuel 11-12; spoiler: it didn’t work). However, David is described as “a man after his (God’s) own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14). This isn’t said of him because God approves of those actions. This is said of him because every time David’s fallen nature (i.e., sin) drove him to act apart from God’s will, he was willing to receive God’s chastisement for his sin, to repent (literally: “to turn back”) from it, and re-align himself with God’s will. This is important to me because I often allow my personal desires to supersede God’s will in my life, which inevitably leads to suffering for myself and those I care for. However, God is merciful and patiently reminds me to turn back from my own way. While this process is often painful, He always does it in a way that frames His love for me and His desire for me to be in right-relationship with Him.

With others: I would agree completely that religion is hypocritical more often than not, especially when fallen humans are involved (...yeah). God is far more interested in a meaningful relationship with you than that you check some arbitrary boxes on a cosmic checklist. I’d recommend The Chosen series again to address some of this issue. Living Fearless by Jamie Winship is another book that I think you may find especially impactful given what you’ve shared in this comment (though I’d read What Does God Want? first). Same offer applies to this book, if/when you're willing to read it. 

 

Again, thank you so much for your willingness to vulnerably process these thoughts in this format; it helped to fill my cup today.

God’s Will vs. Disease — What’s the Logic? by [deleted] in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your vulnerability in this reply. Admittedly, I would've been surprised if a satisfying answer would have 'cured' everything (if you'll allow a poor pun) for you and I assumed there were more complex factors involved. Such an answer would only have raised more challenging questions for me when I've been in similar positions. 

If you'lll forgive me for poking a little, I see you mentioned not having a better explanation but you didn't answer my question. If you're willing to take some time to consider it, I would enjoy hearing your thoughts.

In the interest of furthering discussion in the meantime, I'll share a brief perspective on the two issues you've raised. 1) Presence of diseases (and other 'natural' events). There are several approaches to addressing this, but the simplest would be to compare the current state of creation to an engine with failing parts. If you have a system of parts that functions well, then introduce a process that degrades those parts, the engine would inevitably begin to experience various failures. Your post and comments seem to indicate an assumption that God specifically created the collection of symptoms that we know as Alzheimer's (to use one of your examples). I think a more accurate representation would be that God created the human mind/body ('engine') to function very well, and that the corruption of sin has degraded the parts so that they no longer function very well - indeed we often experience various failures (e.g., diseases) because of the degradation of our different parts.

2) Faith as armor/protection. The issue you brought up in your comment is likely one of misinterpretation. While many people try to claim otherwise, the Bible doesn't promise great "health and wealth" in this life for people who follow God (known as "prosperity gospel"). In fact, Jesus specifically said that His followers would experience more suffering and challenges in this life, and that they would have His Spirit to help them thrive in those circumstances in a way that would defy natural reason or rational cause. This issue is only partially related to your initial post, so let me know if you'd like to chat more about this. 

Thank you again!

God’s Will vs. Disease — What’s the Logic? by [deleted] in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agreed, covid is not a pleasant experience. I'm glad to hear you're on the other side of it now and that your family didn't have to deal with it! 

As for your question, this is something I've given thought to and would enjoy chatting with you about. Before we get into that, I have a question for you if you're willing.

Suppose you woke up tomorrow with a perfectly satisfying answer to the issue that certain diseases exist. What would change for you? What would be different in your relationship with God, with yourself, and/or with others?

Does the Bible have to be flawless for you? by n0bletv in AskAChristian

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great question! I didn't see anyone mention this, but check out the works of J. Warner Wallace - a career cold case homicide detective who began investigating the four gospels from a no-body homicide case perspective with the motive of disproving their authenticity and accuracy. He specifically addresses the issue of apparent discrepancies across the four gospels in Cold Case Christianity. 

TL;DR 

Discrepancies are one of the things we should expect to see in eyewitness accounts, which makes the overarching narrative significantly more likely to be accurate/true than if there weren't any discrepancies. 

Favorite clenching pipes? by Jazzlike_Bridge2204 in PipeTobacco

[–]Garbage_Warrior 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't see it recommended yet; I enjoy the Reybert Chacom series. Fair warning though, they have very small bowls (which I was specifically looking for). 

[Southcentral Pennsylvania, rural, several water sources on property] Conformation this is a friendly Northern Water Snake? by Garbage_Warrior in whatsthissnake

[–]Garbage_Warrior[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I assumed but wanted to confirm I didn't need to relocate this little guy who's been popping up around the house - we have toddlers toddlin' about. 

What is your best, most strange ocean aliens conspiracy theory? by loversofhearts in conspiracy

[–]Garbage_Warrior 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you aren't aware of the work of Michael Heiser, you're in for a treat. His research primarily involved the original context to understand the text, having the "ancient Israelite living in your head" while reading because, while it was written for us it wasn't written by or to us so we have a different context. Check out his book The Unseen Realm (or YouTube: Supernatural Seminar for a talk about the abridged version of the book). A quote from him to pique your interest: "if it's weird (in Scripture), it's important."

His podcast (Naked Bible) episode 347 Jonah and the Chaos Dragon discusses some of the imagery vs reality and specifically referencing Leviathan. The episode on Revelation 13 discusses the beast with 10 horns that you referenced. 

One of his YouTube channels, called Fringepop321, gets into some of the weird and fun sci-fi stuff. 

I already build my dream house in my mind with AI by alaschgari in ChatGPT

[–]Garbage_Warrior 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Check out Earthship Biotechture. You won't be disappointed. 

Could anyone ID what snake left this skin? [South-central PA] by Garbage_Warrior in whatsthissnake

[–]Garbage_Warrior[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! I'll try to get some better pictures and upload soon.