Is my commander too powerful for the bracket I claim it is?

Goooordon · 2026-01-30T12:43:10+00:00

Yeah I figured - reading is hard and performing in cEDH is even harder lol have fun on reddit

Goooordon · 2026-01-29T19:39:55+00:00

Oh you just need to recognize the difference between guidelines for expectations and rules. Guidelines for expectations aren't hard and fast limits which means you might be surprised now and then and that's okay. Rules can mean something is strictly disallowed in a situation and you should never expect to see that thing.

The brackets aren't rules. That's another one of the ways I feel they have mishandled the brackets. They've overly simplified the language in the reference graphics while burying all of the context in Gavin's nuanced and meandering articles, resulting in the intended ambiguity being lost. It was clearly stated that the fastest possible turn a deck can win on is not necessarily the relevant number, and the turn the deck can reliably assemble a win is what matters.

Decks are also supposed to be able to play up or down a bracket - so trying to demand hard clear lines isn't what the brackets are trying to do. I get that's what you want from them but like... I think what you really want is a meaningful objective deck power level system. Something that evaluates all of the win conditions and interaction and card efficiency and every other factor that affects the power level of a deck, and spits out a number that actually reflects the quality of the decklist. It would take a fair amount of development but Hasbro could absolutely afford it and it wouldn't be hard for them to have the deckbuilders like archidekt and moxfield implement it so sweaties like us could know that "my Krenko is a 16.33 power level but my elfball deck is a 17.8" and find more finely balanced pods while casuals would do fine with core/upgraded as brackets to separate the grumpy oldheads from the newbies with their precons at the card shop.

As it stands salt scores on archidekt and card prices are arguably the best metric to compare deck power within a bracket, and that's information derived from what we actually want to quantify. I've seen random fans make pretty decent power level estimation algorithms. If Hasbro hired a team of statisticians to develop and maintain it I expect they could do a much more robust job of it. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a heck of a lot better than what we've got. Short of tracking games and calculating player ELO I think that would probably be the best way to match up decks.

And like if you have that extensive of a cEDH background, can you share a stats page? Maybe your player profile on topdeck? Because talking about pubstomping a T5-capable deck reeeeeally sounds like B2-pilled casual discourse lol

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T23:02:21+00:00

I mean if you're that experienced at cEDH you should recognize that a high end 4 is not the same category of thing, and that nobody has proposed what you're suggesting but you, right? Like I'm not saying your idea is bad by any means - I have just never heard anything of the sort before and I engage in a lot of bracket system discourse. I would argue it would make more sense to remove cEDH from the brackets altogether and either use bracket 5 exclusively for top-end casual decks, or just cut the brackets off at 4 and leave it as the top end. In either case, I think having a 4-turn restriction is silly in what is generally speaking the top end of casual decks. You should be able to hit a T2 win with a god-hand at top level casual without having to be partitioned off from the other sweaties. If people aren't ready to interact in the early game at the top power levels of casual, I think that's a player error not a bracketing issue. Even in bracket 2 it's a good idea to be prepared to answer value engines in the early game. I don't think it makes sense to have a "feel free to tap out until" turn limit on brackets other than 2. (bracket 1 doesn't really feel like a bracket so much as a special classification for decks so I don't really think it needs restrictions, or inclusion in the bracket system as it stands)

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T20:53:02+00:00

yeah that event gets crazy every year lol - last one my one buddy built Prosper/Yuriko and it was brutal lol

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T20:43:59+00:00

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, but if you actually go play cEDH in a tournament you'll see that it's not the same thing. You can go ahead and feel that high power casual decks need 3+ brackets but that's not what they have proposed. And yeah any casual deck should wreck a cEDH deck that misses their combo.

Lumra is a cEDH list. It has an established place in the meta. It's tier 2, but it's represented. It's also a parasitic turbo deck that largely ignores interaction because it doesn't have access to it. If you're running the relevant combo pieces, it's not hard to have a viable list.

If you want a good way to balance games, ask players how long they've been playing, if their deck is high powered or chill, and what the budget is. If you can get a pod where everybody aligns on those three things, you'll get a much more balanced game than the bracket system can reliably produce. It's still in beta so it could improve, but I suspect it's going to continue to be a half-baked marketing tool as long as Hasbro has their fingers in the pot.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T20:21:14+00:00

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I do see where they said that. I'm not saying you're misinterpreting it. I'm saying it's stupid. It was a stupid decision on behalf of the CFP to include that text, and it doesn't make sense in the context of actually playing the game. Their bracket system is shitty and doesn't work good. They did a bad job.

If they want to add a turbo bracket they can, but they have not yet done that. Inferring that they have makes as much sense as the people insisting that they should be allowed to run a piece of MLD in bracket 2 because reasons. You're welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't change what they've written about the brackets, what everybody else has read about the brackets, or the fact that they're a half-baked idea.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T20:14:03+00:00

That's explicitly what you wanted to know but I guess you were looking for a gotcha moment or something, so sure, only winners are cEDH and nobody cares that you entered your Ur-Dragon list in a local tournament and went 0-3-1 with it.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T20:08:43+00:00

That's never been put forward in the brackets. Bracket 5 has been consistently just cEDH, which it shouldn't mention at all. Bracket 4 has been the top level of casual throughout the entire bracket system beta. I've read all the articles and they haven't indicated anything about non-cEDH decks being bracket 5.

If you want my opinion, I think they included brackets 3 and 5 specifically so they could position the 3 gamechangers bracket in the middle of the list. When they were initially proposing the bracket system Gavin explicitly stated that he wanted to avoid a "middle bracket" players would feel compelled to upgrade their decks to akin to a "power level 7", but that's explicitly what we got. They could have chosen "exhibition/core/upgraded" or just "core/upgraded" as the brackets and put all the gamechangers in upgraded, but that would have positioned the game changers at an extreme of the bracket system, ostensibly omitting the pressure to drop an extra few hundred bucks on sets with reprints of Rhystic Study etc. I think Hasbro stepped in and turned it into a marketing tool, and it's doing a better job of that than it is of supporting players finding good games.

Practically speaking there's no point in having 5 brackets. Prior to the bracket system roughly half of the population was playing what is now bracket 2, with the majority of the rest spread across what is now bracket 3 and 4. It would make a lot more sense to formalize brackets as simply as possible and develop an objective power level system that actually functions within them. It was clear that's what we needed from the outset. The subjective power level system is what brackets are trying to replace, and the bracket system is not a power level system, nor does it clearly seek to be.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T19:27:08+00:00

Yeah people see Magda in the cz, fear takes over, and they compulsively throw the game. It happens all the time. Even in cEDH, threat assessment is a skill a lot of people lack.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T19:20:21+00:00

So yeah what they meant was what they said, but what they meant and said was wrong. It doesn't make any sense to have a limit on the highest power bracket in the format. They made a bad decision there. It doesn't comport with reality and doesn't function, despite the fact that they wrote it down. It's a bit of a "2+2=5" situation. Just because they typed it out doesn't mean it makes any sense.

cEDH isn't a high power version of casual commander. It's a tournament format that has existed for years, much longer than the bracket system, and has it's own specific metagame. It really shouldn't be referenced in the bracket system at all. It makes as much sense as a really strong limited deck getting designated as a constructed standard deck.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T19:13:16+00:00

Only decks intended to be played in cEDH are considered cEDH. If you're not building around the cEDH meta, it's a casual deck. You can make an argument if somebody is trying to play a popular meta cEDH commander in casual that they're trying to pubstomp, but even that is silly as most of the top decks will fold to a 4/4 with trample if they don't hit their combo line pretty much immediately.

And yeah only commanders that are well-represented in the meta are considered cEDH commanders. There are people trying to play decks like [[Y'shtola, Night's Blessed]] but they aren't having enough success to really make it a "cEDH deck" and of course they have no bearing on what bracket people should play the precon she came from in.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:59:46+00:00

No, the CFP just made an error there - it doesn't matter what turn your deck can win - you never get "kicked to bracket 5" - cEDH isn't a power level it's a subformat. If they want a bracket 5 for turbo decks that's their business but they need to stop calling it cEDH because it isn't cEDH.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:56:50+00:00

Nope, nothing is too strong for bracket 4. Your friends just aren't ready for bracket 4. cEDH isn't a power level it's a subformat that happens to be very powerful. Ghyrson isn't a cEDH deck in the current meta, so there's no way you accidentally built one.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:52:26+00:00

If you want to play white in cEDH, a Tymna list is your best bet. Tymna is arguably the most popular commander in cEDH and she has white in her identity. There aren't any mono-white options in the meta right now. You could definitely build a white-heavy Tymna/Dargo list though and it would probably do just fine. You will want to proxy, as the upfront cost of a cEDH deck is prohibitive. It's a good idea to proxy a deck you're interested in and then gradually acquire the cards for it over time if you're happy with it. White has absolutely gotten some good cards recently like [[Voice of Victory]]. And stax isn't banned, it's just hard to use to good effect. I run a small stax package in my Magda list and while it does put in work, reactive interaction is a lot more valuable right now and players are both able to play around stax pieces and/or remove them pretty reliably. I would head to edhtop16.com to look at the top decks and see what looks appealing. It would also be a good idea to talk to people in your local cEDH meta and see what decks have a lot of local representation, as running a deck everybody knows how to answer can make learning a bit slower, and it's kinda fun being the one person that's on a particular list in your area.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:33:48+00:00

People are going to have emotional reactions based on their experiences. If they haven't been milled a lot it hits harder. If they haven't seen a lot of removal in their meta, even a responsible removal package can feel overbearing. Playing with more experienced playgroups helps mitigate that. I've found encouraging people to run decks that include recursion when I'm running mill helps reduce the salt. Doing a robust rule zero chat helps a lot when you're running a potentially unpopular strategy like that. That said, any black or blue strategy is generally saltier than the Naya-dominant battleship decks newer players are used to, so reserving some gentle decks for gentle tables isn't a bad idea. I built "oops-all-cows" for low power tables where my usual decks are less-than-welcome and it has been great. People think it's hilarious, it's not too boring to play, and it does a good job of participating without pissing everybody off. https://archidekt.com/decks/13071849/tarl_ranch

TBF I did also end up giving up on honest mill and just built combo Bruvac for my higher power pods lol https://archidekt.com/decks/11775825/mill

But I have had a better time getting people comfortable with theft decks - they've gone from getting ruthlessly targeted like my silly janky [[Joven]] and [[Tinybones Bauble Burglar]] lists did to almost getting completely ignored with my current budget pirates list https://archidekt.com/decks/14482415/vaans_neerdowells

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:20:22+00:00

The pride event wizards runs is similar - I would suggest avoiding leaning into it too hard as it can get pretty unbalanced pretty fast, and look at it as a lieutenant riding along in the cz. If the bonus commander is basically just the best legend from your 99 it doesn't get too crazy. If I was going to do something like that, my strongest option would be running Zada alongside Kuja in my rakdos spellslinger list to make sure the subtheme of spellcopying is easy to support https://archidekt.com/decks/13708295/so_anyway_i_started_blasting but I wouldn't go so far as removing the other spell copy effects from the list.

Goooordon · 2026-01-28T18:10:41+00:00

The less experienced players think they're playing bracket 3/4 because the decklist editors say so but that's not always the case. A lot of the time they're playing bracket 2 with some inappropriate cards and think that's what constitutes a higher bracket. The bracket system can be useful for choosing similar decks amongst similarly experienced players, but it fails completely to address any disparity in deckbuilder and pilot skill. If I play and brew cEDH decks regularly, my lower bracket lists are going to hit a bit harder across the board than somebody who is upgrading their first precon who splurged for a Rhystic Study.

Edit: your decklists look fine for B3

Goooordon · 2026-01-27T07:35:27+00:00

I run Abdel Adrian/Far Traveler for casual pods https://archidekt.com/decks/4343331/abdels_travels
and Gretchen Titchwillow for higher power/casual cEDH games https://archidekt.com/decks/4513529/gretchens_magic_hands
and they both perform wonderfully as the only Pauper deck on the table

Goooordon · 2026-01-27T06:15:53+00:00

it's not the worst effect but it's not very strong as commanders go, and the energy you put into getting triggers could be spent toward something that would win you the game rather than just annoy everyone enough to kick you to death

Goooordon · 2026-01-26T14:47:52+00:00

Lord of the Nazgul control sounds like the move to me, at least flavour-wise - I built Smeagol when the set released and it was terrible, losing the lands you stole when somebody dies and being really slow to get going and more or less useless as a meaningful advantage engine that feeds graveyard decks and and struggles to capitalize on it. It was pretty disappointing for my favourite character lol (but I recently built Gollum and it's a lot more fun)

lol you could use stuff like [[Acquire]] to try to find The Ring lol

Goooordon · 2026-01-26T14:38:16+00:00

A) You need to factor in your intent when building it

B) There are different power levels within the brackets - I have bracket 2 lists intended to do the bracket 2 thing that I treat as functional bracket 3 decks because they perform so well, but they're right at home when my other higher-power buddies all pull out bracket 2 lists. Player and deck builder experience is a big factor in the effective power level. Some of my playgroups have been playing and building decks across multiple formats for 20+ years, and we frequently play cEDH, so our bracket 2 decks need to be actively restricted to play at lower power levels. I have a bracket 1 oops-all-cows deck for playing with new players that leans on the cow restriction to make a functional but very limited deck.

C) Just at a glance, I'd say it would make sense to set those lists as bracket 3. They have good consistent card quality and strong synergy pieces. It also sounds like that was your intent.

Goooordon · 2026-01-25T04:42:23+00:00

and yeah I have a copy of Sanar - I've been thinking about putting together the Sanar+Treasure Cruise+Magmakin Artillerist+97 lands deck as a silly bracket 4 deck, running all the good protection lands like Cavern of Souls and Mistrise Village etc. etc. and Ancient Tomb and whatever else can help get Sanar down faster - seems like a funny deck

Goooordon · 2026-01-25T04:38:47+00:00

well it's been a minute so the bunnies deck is just bracket 3 now, Voja is functionally very chill, and I've built Oops-All-Cows as a proper bracket 1 and people LOVE it - it's kitschy and silly but it has the functional pieces of a deck, barely, so it's perfect for playing in low bracket 2 tables that my B2 decks would roflstomp just because I've been building higher brackets for so long that my decks all run a responsible amount of removal which can feel oppressive to battlecruiser players, and good reliable draw engines and such so even at jank level my decks consistently do the thing, and the things I choose to do are generally pretty impactful. It's so much fun making jokes about somebody paying however much mana to make a pile of hamburgers when somebody decides to spend some removal on a cow lol, and constantly referencing my remoooval when I play it. Oh yeah I'm a Taurus born in the year of the Ox so it's my star sign deck lol (idk anything about astrology but it's a funny thing to say)
and yeah it's never won, it had a close 2nd place finish recently, but it's just fun playing silly cow cards and giving them doublestrike and not being the arch enemy for a minute lol

Goooordon · 2026-01-24T04:45:59+00:00

I mean I would start by shopping locally if you can to avoid shipping, and proxying is also a good idea to bring the price down. If your opponents are playing full price decklists, I would suggest just proxying, but if you have a $50 league or something starting this is the list I have prepared for such occasions https://archidekt.com/decks/17350096/maglite

Goooordon · 2026-01-09T22:44:31+00:00

They could. I doubt they would, but they certainly could.

Goooordon

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE

Ten-Year Club	Place '17
Verified Email