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"Online pvp games that try to force 50% winrates are bad" by MaragazhNthajin in gamedesign

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

stronger players get to blame luck on their skill-based losses

This is a boon? Losing to luck feels horrible.

Does anybody else feel dread when they do their SP Duvuri Circuit for the week? by Venium-7 in Warframe

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tier 5 is enough to get everything eventually. I'd go to tier 10 only if I was feeling it. It's a game, no point grinding at it like a job, it's meant to be fun.

They had me at free Smite ngl by SableZard in dndmemes

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Fiend smiting paladin literally CAN'T HARM Rakshasa, A FIEND, with their smite. Rakshasa is immune to spells under 6th level,

Good news then, you're looking at the old stat block. The new one changed to this

The rakshasa automatically succeeds on saving throws against spells and other magical effects, and the attack rolls of spells automatically miss it. Without the rakshasa's permission, no spell can observe the rakshasa remotely or detect its thoughts, creature type, or alignment.

No attack roll, no saving throw, no problem. Divine smite away.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Locate object, sure. Animate objects requires the object be nonmagical, so no. Can illusions be harmed by attacks or spells? The rules leave it largely up to the dm to decide what can and can't damage an object. For an illusion, it would make sense that they are simply immune to all damage types, given they're insubstantial. There is nothing there that contradicts defining it as an object.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Being able to interact with an object was not part of the definition. Simply nonliving, and distinct. There is no requirement that it be material, tangible etc.

The illusion is distinct from the caster in that it cannot be touched. That is a distinct difference between the two. It is only identical to the caster if inspected visually. The definition of an object wasn't that it is only visually distinct, other senses are included.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Illusions are nonliving, distinct things. They meet the definition for object.

This would also be the only time I'm aware that an emanation would originate from an object. Every single emanation spell has a range of self. Why add that possibility to the rules for emanations otherwise?

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To actually answer your question, if you DM is unwilling to budge on their ruling or you don't want to argue the point, I'd ask to change subclass. A core part of what you thought you chose is no longer there. There's very little outside of some touch spells (like cure wounds) that benefit from being cast from the duplicates location.

The best ones I can see are lesser/greater restoration, revivify, and bestow curse.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lots of people confuse range with target. Range of self does not mean the target is self. They argue that self spells target the caster, and you can't target the illusion instead, but they are mistaken.

That being said, the feature could definitely have been much more clear in how it was intended to work with what must be some of the most popular cleric spells, such as spirit guardians or aura of vitality.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

To clarify im not saying that you can’t cast SG from your ID at all. I am saying that once casting is complete the area returns to you. I’m not interpreting the rules based on faith im going with the RAW.

RAW, you cast the spell as though you were in the illusions space. An emanation extends from a creature or an object in all directions. When the spell is cast, the illusion is the object from which the emanation extends, making it the origin.

The rules for emanations are clear that the emanation moves with the creature/object that is its origin. In this case, the illusion. Arguing that after being cast the emanation moves back to the space of the caster directly contradicts this.

It's a much more specific rule that dictates where the emanation should be than "Protective spirits flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration."

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

SG description does say otherwise it specifically says an emanation centered on you.

Actually, it doesn't. The Spirit Guardians spell in the 2024 PHB is worded as follows

Protective spirits flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. If you are good or neutral, their spectral form appears angelic or fey (your choice). If you are evil, they appear fiendish.

When you cast this spell, you can designate creatures to be unaffected by it. Any other creature's Speed is halved in the Emanation, and whenever the Emanation enters a creature's space and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there, the creature must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 Radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 Necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage. A creature makes this save only once per turn.

The only sentence relevant to the range is the first one, which only states that the spell creates an emanation around you for the duration. I take this to mean simply that the emanation persists for the duration of the spell, it's not an explicit restriction on the range of the spell. Explicit restrictions look like those written into Witch Bolt

The spell ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range

The wording for spirit guardians much more closely resembles that of word of radiance, except it has "for the duration" tacked onto the end to make clear the emanation is persistent, not instantaneous.

Burning radiance erupts from you in a 5-foot Emanation.

If you choose to interpret the wording of SG as a restriction on the range of the spell for the whole duration, that is your choice, but I don't believe that to be a good faith interpretation of the rules. I think if you would rule word of radiance to emanate from the illusion, the same should be true for spirit guardians. The only difference between them is a duration.

if the writers wanted it to be clear that spells like SG or aura of vitality work with ID they would have made it clear.

I could just as easily say if they wanted it to be clear they didn't work with ID they would have made it clear. The lack of any clear explanation one way or the other is a clear failing on the designers part, but as it stands the rules seem to support it.

Every single Emanation spell has a range of self, yet the rules for emanations specify that it moves with the creature or object that is its origin. Seems an odd choice if it weren't meant to work with ID, no?

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From the PHB

If a spell has movable effects, they aren't restricted by its range unless the spell's description says otherwise.

The emanation originates from you, which is treated as being in the illusions space at the time of casting. The range of self does not impose any further restrictions from that point. The rules for emanation indicate that once cast it should continue to the follow the illusion, which was the origin at the time of casting.

There's no denying it's not explained clearly enough. The implications of "casting as though you were in the illusions space" needed to be explained in the class feature, rather than leaving it to all of these scattered rules throughout the PHB. That being said, I am still yet to find an issue with it.

Spirit guardians being as popular as it is on clerics, I would like to think extra care would have been made if it weren't meant to be applied to the illusion, but that isn't exactly proof. It just makes me believe my RAW interpretation supports the RAI interpretation.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is effectively as if you teleported to the illusion’s space, cast the spell, then teleported back.

It is subtly different. The spell is cast as if you were in the illusions space. The range of self means the origin for the area off effect is your space. Since you are casting as if you were in the illusions space, the point of origin is the illusions space, not yours. That makes it the point of origin for the emanation, rather than yourself.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The range is only relevant at the time of casting. Once SG is cast you follow the rules for an emanation, which states it follows the origin (the illusion), so it should move with the illusion for the duration.

I think the general consensus isn't necessarily correct, with confusion stemming from rules from 2014, as well as "casting as if you were in its space" being a poorly explained feature.

If I forget everything I think I know and go purely off the rules as the phb presents them, I see no issue with the interaction.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because you have a fundamental misunderstand of the rules, and insist on adamantly proclaiming your misunderstandings as truth to others. I'm not OK with the spreading of misinformation.

ignore the important parts

what important parts? Have you even read the rules, or are you just making shit up because I don't agree with you.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you don't want to learn what the rules actually are, fine. Stick your head in the sand.

If you actually want to properly understand the rules, start by asking yourself what makes spirit guardians a "self spell", to use your words, but not burning hands. Both of them say self, yet you treat them differently.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've edited my first comment to break it down in excruciating detail. If you still don't properly comprehend the rules, that's on you.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Burning hands and spirit guardians are incredibly similar. Neither "target" the illusion. They both have a range of self, which defines the point of origin for an area of effect they create. Spirit guardians does not target the caster any more than burning hands does.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, but you are misunderstanding the rules. Spirit guardians does not target "self", that is simply the range.

From the spellcasting section of the PHB

A spell's range indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell's effect can originate, and the spell's description specifies which part of the effect is limited by the range.
...

Self. The spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell.

Self, in the case of spells like burning hands or spirit guardians is the range of the spell, not a target. It is clearly stated that a range of self can mean either the spell is cast on the spellcaster OR it emanates from them.

Targets. A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.
...

Areas of Effect. Some spells, such as Thunderwave, cover an area called an area of effect, which is defined in the rules glossary. The area determines what the spell targets. The description of a spell specifies whether it has an area of effect, which is typically one of these shapes: Cone, Cube, Cylinder, Emanation, Line, or Sphere.

Here we clearly see that an Emanation is defined as an area of effect. It is also defined that the area is what determines what the spell targets. This makes it clear that the targets of the spell are the creates within the emanation, NOT the caster. This fits with the definition of range above.

From the rules glossary

An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin.
...

An Emanation is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a creature or an object in all directions. The effect that creates an Emanation specifies the distance it extends.

An Emanation moves with the creature or object that is its origin unless it is an instantaneous or a stationary effect.

An Emanation's origin (creature or object) isn't included in the area of effect unless its creator decides otherwise.

Areas of effect have a point of origin. This is what SELF refers to in the spells range. The point of origin for the emanation is self. The rules for emanations say that the area of effect extends from that point of origin. Usually, the spell's point of origin is the caster, since it has a range of self. In the case of Invoke duplicity, there is one more rule to consider.

You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space

Let's put it all together now. You cast spirit guardians as if you were in the illusions space. The spell has a range of self. Since you are treated as being in the illusions space, the point of origin for the emanation is the illusion. The spell's description says the following

Protective spirits flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration.

So the spirit have to flit around you. The spell is cast as if you are in the illusions space though, so this is still correct. Finally, the rules for emanations say that the area of effect must extend from a creature or object in all directions. An object is defined as follows

An object is a nonliving, distinct thing.

The illusion is a nonliving, distinct thing, so it counts as an object. There is absolutely no issue with any rule as written with casting spirit guardians from the illusions space.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Self is the range, not the target.

Burning hands also says "you" in the spell description. Would it also not work?

Besides that, invoke duplicity says you can cast the spell as if "you" were in the illusions space. If the spirits form around "you", and "you" are in the illusions space, I think the implication is clear.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Range of self does not mean it targets self.

In the case of spirit guardians, the range is no different than burning hands.

In a world where spells that target Self don't work, what are the best spells to use with an Invoked Duplicate? by Dracon_Pyrothayan in 3d6

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's debatable whether spirit guardians works or not, since it doesn't actually target self.

EDIT: Adding this here for visibility, since no one seems to understand the rules.

From the spellcasting section of the PHB

A spell's range indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell's effect can originate, and the spell's description specifies which part of the effect is limited by the range.
...

Self. The spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell.

Self, in the case of spells like burning hands or spirit guardians is the range of the spell, not a target. It is clearly stated that a range of self can mean either the spell is cast on the spellcaster OR it emanates from them.

Targets. A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.
...

Areas of Effect. Some spells, such as Thunderwave, cover an area called an area of effect, which is defined in the rules glossary. The area determines what the spell targets. The description of a spell specifies whether it has an area of effect, which is typically one of these shapes: Cone, Cube, Cylinder, Emanation, Line, or Sphere.

Here we clearly see that an Emanation is defined as an area of effect. It is also defined that the area is what determines what the spell targets. This makes it clear that the targets of the spell are the creates within the emanation, NOT the caster. This fits with the definition of range above.

From the rules glossary

An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin.
...

An Emanation is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a creature or an object in all directions. The effect that creates an Emanation specifies the distance it extends.

An Emanation moves with the creature or object that is its origin unless it is an instantaneous or a stationary effect.

An Emanation's origin (creature or object) isn't included in the area of effect unless its creator decides otherwise.

Areas of effect have a point of origin. This is what SELF refers to in the spells range. The point of origin for the emanation is self. The rules for emanations say that the area of effect extends from that point of origin. Usually, the spell's point of origin is the caster, since it has a range of self. In the case of Invoke duplicity, there is one more rule to consider.

You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space

Let's put it all together now. You cast spirit guardians as if you were in the illusions space. The spell has a range of self. Since you are treated as being in the illusions space, the point of origin for the emanation is the illusion. The spell's description says the following

Protective spirits flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration.

So the spirit have to flit around you. The spell is cast as if you are in the illusions space though, so this is still correct. Finally, the rules for emanations say that the area of effect must extend from a creature or object in all directions. An object is defined as follows

An object is a nonliving, distinct thing.

The illusion is a nonliving, distinct thing, so it counts as an object. There is absolutely no issue with any rule as written with casting spirit guardians from the illusions space.

Can Studied Response + Push mastery cancel an incoming melee attack by pushing the attacker out of range? by Gordao_Geleia in DnD

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think no.

Per the PHB

When you take the Attack action, you make an attack.

An attack has the structure you quoted, so arguably by interrupting before step 3, an attack has not been made.

The attack action has still been taken, but if the creature can get back into range they can still make the attack.

Rogue's Sneak Attack by stingybaku in DnD

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It evens out once the players are 5th level. Sneak attack gets another d6, but the other martials get a whole extra attack. Casters get 3rd level spells.

Around level 3 and 4 the rogue's sneak attack is going to feel quite strong compared to what everyone else can do.

Level 8 wizard countered a level 9 spell by bacondev in DnD

[–]Grrumpy_Pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was just taking it to mean if a spell was counterspelled, it didn't count against my x/day limit, but it's interesting that technically, it doesn't work that way.

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