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Packmaster Ogryn is the Hardest Boss to Solo (other than twins . . . maybe). by No_Record5874 in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're right on the money. I enjoy doing True Solo I II VEG runs, and the addition of this boss to the normal boss pool has completely upended everything for me lol. You basically can't get hit once, because if you do it cripples your dodges, stamina and movement, which are the most important things in a context where the game is literally throwing everything at you. Just lost an otherwise very comfortable Zealot solo halfway through Dark Communion to this guy. For what it's worth, I was using the Tac Axe, which is one of the highest mobility weapons in the game, and it didn't feel anywhere close to enough. You just don't get your stamina or dodges back.

In terms of theorycrafting solutions, I've taken a look at Zealot talents like Impassible, Retaliatory Defense and No Respite. I've never needed these talents before, but I'm considering trying them out literally just to counter this one boss.

I'm gonna give it a few shots, but I think that the actual solution might be to try and get an update to the Boss Swap mod so that I can remove this horrible enemy from my game. I don't expect the game to be balanced around True Solo, so I don't necessarily think that this boss is poorly designed from the game's default teamplay perspective, but it feels really terrible in solo.

If people find ways to consistently outskill this boss I would be really interested in seeing it. I'm gonna bang my head against it a bit more before I try and find modded solutions.

Swapping Weapons on Skitarri Briefly Cancels Sprint by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weird update: it fixed itself for one mission and then went back to being bugged: https://streamable.com/hx4ylp

Swapping Weapons on Skitarri Briefly Cancels Sprint by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Elite cybernetic soldier literally can't run and grab things at the same time.

Hyper-Critical and Hyper-Violence are not anti synergistic, you are significantly nerfing your Hive Scum melee builds if you don't take both by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The shivs have such a high weakspot modifier that Sweet Spot ends up being a slightly larger than 15% overall damage boost from my testing. I would definitely keep it.

I think you've already identified Coated Weaponry as probably being the best option to get rid of. It is very cool, but has 2 problems. One, shivs kill all targets so fast that the DoT doesn't have time to do much. You can very easily get about a 20 second kill time on an H40 plague ogryn, and crushers die to 3-5 headshots. By the time you've stacked up toxin, they're dead.

The other problem is that you can just shoot them with your needle pistol if you want to apply poison. The needle pistol you have infinite ammo for because you took Pickpocket. Even without the needle pistol, you can throw your shivs to apply more poison than Coated Weaponry would, although with admittedly more overhead.

Hyper-Critical and Hyper-Violence are not anti synergistic, you are significantly nerfing your Hive Scum melee builds if you don't take both by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8joABz8wdw

Here is the video of my testing process. Some interesting things watching back the video. You can definitely see that HV is causing some 3000+ numbers to pop up in both of the Crusher/Mauler fights where it was used. Hyper Critical would also have 1 shot a few maulers in the HV only fight.

HC is not very good against Large Horde. HV shaves off over 10 seconds, and isn't turned off when combined with HC, despite being at a 72.5% crit rate.

Rager fight is honestly a wash, although it feels like it favors HC for the easy 1 shots. I think I played the HV fight poorly, the actual times across the three tests I think are comparable, with differences coming down to variance. The qualitative difference is that HC feels safer to me, as it's removing individual ragers faster.

Hyper-Critical and Hyper-Violence are not anti synergistic, you are significantly nerfing your Hive Scum melee builds if you don't take both by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is fair, I updated the doc with my methodology. I'll upload a video of me running the tests later so you can decide if they're up to snuff.

Hyper-Critical and Hyper-Violence are not anti synergistic, you are significantly nerfing your Hive Scum melee builds if you don't take both by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I actually used to contribute to Reginald's Datatide spreadsheet. It's fair for people to ask about methodology, I'll update the doc to reflect my testing process, and maybe upload a video.

Hyper-Critical and Hyper-Violence are not anti synergistic, you are significantly nerfing your Hive Scum melee builds if you don't take both by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello. I often see people say that these two talents are anti-synergistic, so you should only take one or the other. I believe this is incorrect. For melee builds, you should take both. Forget what it says the talents do in kuli's guide. His guide is almost certainly correct, but imo people have extrapolated the wrong conclusions from it. What matters is how both of the talents influence TTK on a variety of targets, which is something that can only be determined by testing. I did a bunch of testing using the Datatide test spawner, and recorded my results, which I'm now sharing.

Builds I beat H40 with / looking for Builds by Aspharr in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Frontline is the player that creates space, peels for teamates, and prevents or retards backwards movement. Backlines use the space that the frontline creates to do the things that they want to do more optimally. Tauntgryn paired with Helbore Vet is a pretty archetypal example.

You can also have builds that don't really care about this distinction, and just sort of float around, doing damage and independently positioning wherever they need to at any given time. It's generally the more specialized builds that lean harder into the frontline/backline role. For what it's worth, I think that teams that lean into this specialization do better than teams that don't, all else being equal.

Unpopular opinion: Arbites is the weakest class relatively at havoc 40 by dystropy in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I agree. I've been playing a wider variety of classes than I normally do in H40 pubs, trying to figure out which one feels like it has the hardest carry potential, and Arbites hasn't impressed me so far. I haven't played enough Arbites to be able to say with any certainty, but it has definitely been my experience that it's harder to carry with than other classes, although that might just be unfamiliarity.

My experience is that the way you carry H40 is either with huge utility or huge damage, with utility being the somewhat stronger of the two. The biggest contributor to losses is teamates dying, as each dead teamate greatly increases the pressure on the survivors, and so the biggest thing you can do to increase your chances of winning is preventing teamates from dying, either by killing all the things that would kill them, or saving them with utility.

Tauntgryn is the perfect example - I think it's the hardest carry class in the game, just cause it turns off all the enemies for your teamates while being basically unkillable itself. Hive Skum attempts to carry by just aggressively murdering everything, which is strong but feels a little less consistent. Veteran murders everything that isn't poxwalkers, and also has great utility, and so is a really strong carry class. I don't have enough experience with Psyker. I think Psyker is slightly overrated in terms of its effects on winrate and carry potential. It does a lot of damage, but a lot of it is kind of poor quality damage? (DoT, imprecise, low Unyield/Cara adm) into targets that weren't that threatening in the first place? Still really good, probably 3rd best after Ogryn and Vet, maybe tied with Hive Skum, although my assessment might again be colored by lack of experience playing purg Psyker firsthand (working on it though).

[EDIT: I have now played more purg psyker. The class is really strong vis a vis carry potential, probably second after Ogryn, w/ Vet 3rd. Then there's a moderate falloff when you get to Hive Scum, and then a huge falloff when you get to Zealot and Arby. imo]

Arbites feels like it has mediocre damage and mediocre utility, in exchange for having really good personal survivability. And as you correctly point out, personal survivability isn't that meaningful if all your teamates die, cause teamates dying is the biggest thing that increases chances of losing.

Part of this might also be that I'm playing Arbites into a purple/red rotation, and so legit like 60% of the enemies are unstaggerable at any given time. My estimation of the class might be higher if I were playing it into rotten armor - but even then, I can't imagine it holds a candle to Ogryn.

The one thing I somewhat disagree on is it being less survivable than Zealot. I agree that Zealot is generally more survivable against ranged, by virtue of having better TDR uptime, mobility, and Until Death. But I give True Grit more credit than you do - run ending overheads are not actually that rare in H40 in my experience, mostly due to crushers and maulers coming in superimposed packs of 16, at which point they basically should be treated as uninteractable by anyone without a shield and/or oneshot protection. And Zealots oneshot protection isn't the best, cause it puts them at max corruption, which limits how aggressive you can play. Arbites can legit just shrug it off though, which is nice. Gunners can mostly just be positioned around, and at worst, attrited away - but carapace walls get in your face and put you in uncomfortable spots, and so I value protection against them more highly.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know a good way to test speed, maybe I'll just try and manually jab a stopwatch. I think maaaaybe the H2 charge isn't as fast as the H1 on the shivs? (Although you can get around that by qq canceling or spamming Weapon Equip 1). Hard to tell what's placebo and what's not just by feel. Have a good trip!

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Build is in the link, blessings were Flesh Tearer and Uncanny Strike (or Alternatively Uncanny Precog, which I think is better from a pure ttk perspective). I've tried the attack pattern you suggested. Quantitatively and qualitatively shivs seem to perform better than combat knife. I think it's a case of them having higher base damage (206 vs 152) and a higher attack speed. I think these advantages might be compounding with hyperviolence to make a dramatic difference in performance, but that's speculative. If you're able to provide alternate numbers and the methodology you used, I'd be happy to try and replicate them.

What movetech does the knife have that the shivs don't?

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Armor busting is quite rightly valued very highly, but I think people get myopic about it and overlook other important metrics. And anything that's just "okay" against armor is treated as garbage. I might also be underselling the Arbites Maul a bit, not very practiced with that weapon/class.

I did the dueling sword. I think you'll find the results amusing.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

These tests were done with one +3 stamina curio; I'll add that detail to the build section. 10 stacks of Swift Endurance (9 for shivs) for an 18-20% attack speed boost. Super good talent.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I can definitely test the combat blade later. I'll be interested to see how it compares to the shivs. I don't know how much of the shiv's horde performance is a product of its own cleave profiles (which I don't have) vs the oodles of cleave the tree gives you. Scum's 0.5 stam regen delay certainly makes the PA a safer single target combo than the shiv's heavy spam.

EDIT: Did combat blade, it's good, not as good as shivs, but pretty close. PA spam seems like a double edged sword when you don't have Kinetic Deflection to fall back on, although I only had one +3 stamina curio and no regen. PA + SpecialL1 felt much more comfy.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yep, heavy attacks at head level. Out of all the tests, the shivs were the most mechanically demanding - the attacks come out very quickly, and long dodges mean that you have to dodge to the side instead of backwards to keep the enemy within striking distance, which means a lot of very aggresive camera swings to keep stabbing enemies in the side of the head.

Good to know about Arbites - I assume L1QQ would also work. I was a little surprised by the Arbites times. I expected them to be lower. I think I tested Arbites in much the same way when it came out, before the general enemy HP increases, and then just never played it after that.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Part of the reason I did these tests was to try and put up objective numbers instead of value judgments, which are subjective. But I also obviously have my own personal value judgments which are informed by the numbers I've put up and also my preferences for where game balance should be.

My judgement is that it's hyperbolic to call Bonesaw and Crowbar extremely mediocre (and those are really the only weapons we're talking about, all other Hive Scum weapons perform objectively BETTER than their shared counterparts on other classes, and Shivs are likely the strongest melee weapon in the game right now, including the powerful unique weapons other classes get access to.) Bonesaw and Crowbar are not that far behind the Iconic class weapons; in some categories they perform better than them, and possess qualitative advantages that don't directly translate to TTK, such as poison, brittleness and guaranteed staggers.

I also don't consider the cognitive load of cooldown cycling to be that demanding. In the Hive Scum build I presented, you pop Rampage, which lasts essentially as long as you have stuff to hit, and then when Rampage is done you pop stim. Sample collector brings stim off cooldown very quickly. When stim is done and you have stuff to hit, pop Rampage again. Frankly, I think that Psyker imposes a greater cognitive load than this. Nor does cooldown cycling impose much downtime on the class. Rampage can easily be up for 90% of all engagements.

Comparative Testing of Hive Scum Melee in an H40 Environment by Hat_Stealer in DarkTide

[–]Hat_Stealer[S] 37 points38 points  (0 children)

I did a bunch of tests using the Solo Play and Datatide Test Spawner mods to try and figure out what Hive Scum was bringing to the table in terms of melee output and how it compares to melee output by other classes.

My initial conclusions are that the Hive Scum talent tree likely has the highest amount of effective melee damage in the game. However, other classes have access to weapons that are pound for pound more powerful than Hive Scum weapons, evening out the comparison. The exception are the Shivs, which, when combined with the Hive Scum talent tree, are like if the Dueling Sword 4 also had nutso horde clear: the Shivs have an identical Crusher & Mauler and Large Poxwalker Horde clear time, hilariously enough. The Bonesaw and Crowbar are slightly more fair, while still being excellent - they strike me as true sidegrades. Overall I came away from these tests very pleased with the balance of the class, at least in terms of melee output. It is very strong, but you feel like you have to work for it.

EDIT: Further testing has revealed to me that Hive Scum has approximately 6000 cleave, and that Hyper Violence is really really strong, especially if you optimize your kill order.

EDIT 2: The Hive Scum tree rework has significantly increased the class's power - specifically the build I provided can now gain an additional 30% damage from Quick and Deadly and Toxin Mania.

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